The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

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DooDoot
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:29 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:55 pm
How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??
I think sutta support is required for this idea.
If one wrongs an innocent man,
A pure person without blemish,
The evil falls back on the fool himself
Like fine dust thrown against the wind.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn1.22
When one plots against an innocent
Who has done no evil deed,
That evil merely affects the one
Corrupt of mind and disrespectful.

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti89
137. He who inflicts violence on those who are unarmed, and offends those who are inoffensive, will soon come upon one of these ten states:

138-140 Sharp pain, or disaster, bodily injury, serious illness, or derangement of mind, trouble from the government, or grave charges, loss of relatives, or loss of wealth, or houses destroyed by ravaging fire; upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell.

Dhammapada
Bhikkhus, I approached those ascetics and brahmins who hold such a doctrine and view as this: ‘Whatever this person experiences—whether pleasure, pain, or neither-pain-nor-pleasure—all that is caused by past deeds,’ and I said to them: ‘Is it true that you venerable ones hold such a doctrine and view?’ When I ask them this, they affirm it. Then I say to them: ‘In such a case, it is due to past deeds that you might destroy life, take what is not given, indulge in sexual activity, speak falsehood, utter divisive speech, speak harshly, indulge in idle chatter; that you might be full of longing, have a mind of ill will, and hold wrong view.’

Those who fall back on past deeds as the essential truth have no desire to do what should be done and to avoid doing what should not be done, nor do they make an effort in this respect. Since they do not apprehend as true and valid anything that should be done or should not be done, they are muddle-minded, they do not guard themselves, and even the personal designation ‘ascetic’ could not be legitimately applied to them. This was my first legitimate refutation of those ascetics and brahmins who hold such a doctrine and view.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.61

binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:23 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:29 am
binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:55 pm
How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??
I think sutta support is required for this idea.
The suttas you provided only say that innocent people (may) exist. (And past kamma creeps up even on arahants, such as Mahamoggallana who was eventually beaten to death, because in a previous lifetime he killed his parents.)

There is usually the idea that a victim is always innocent; and people tend to have sympathy for victims. But kammically, a person who happens to be a victim isn't automatically innocent.

Upon seeing a victim, this is what the suttas say one should think:
There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.'

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
- - -
L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:13 am
binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:55 pm
How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??
Just saw this comment. I hope none of us ever says this to a victim of a crime, or a parent of a child crime victim, or a sexual assault or sexual harassment victim.
It's not about saying such things to victims or those close to them. It's about understanding a situation in which victimization took place, and not mechanically assuming that the (one portrayed by others as a) victim is innocent.

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L.N.
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:50 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:23 pm
It's not about saying such things to victims or those close to them. It's about understanding a situation in which victimization took place, and not mechanically assuming that the (one portrayed by others as a) victim is innocent.
I will assume that if a child is sliced in half and thrown in a river, the child was an innocent victim.

I will assume that if a woman is raped, the woman is an innocent victim.

I will assume that if a person has disabilities from birth, it is not skillful to regard this person as someone who just got what was coming to him.

The teaching of kamma is intended to be applied to one's own development along the path, not to judging others.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:06 pm

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:50 pm
The teaching of kamma is intended to be applied to one's own development along the path, not to judging others.
Understanding kamma is not the same as judging others.

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Mr Man
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by Mr Man » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:06 pm
L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:50 pm
The teaching of kamma is intended to be applied to one's own development along the path, not to judging others.
Understanding kamma is not the same as judging others.
Hi binocular
So what is your understanding of kamma in relation to the Rohingya? Is it your opinion that the present crisis situation of all these individuals is the result of evil actions in a past lifes?

befriend
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by befriend » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:55 pm

We've all been disabled, low caste high caste God demon woman animal ghost as samsara is a cycle since beginning less time there is no one we have not killed and no one who has not been our mother. This is the context of kamma vipaka. By deeds is one judged as noble or ignoble not by caste.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

DooDoot
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:37 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:23 pm
Upon seeing a victim, this is what the suttas say one should think:
There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.'

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Thanks B. I provided direct on-point unambiguous sutta quotes referring to "innocent victims". What is quoted above I think is simply too broad & I think you need to do better to support your theory that rape, murder & child abuse victims are so because of past life kamma.
befriend wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:55 pm
We've all been disabled, low caste high caste God demon woman animal ghost as samsara is a cycle since beginning less time there is no one we have not killed and no one who has not been our mother. This is the context of kamma vipaka. By deeds is one judged as noble or ignoble not by caste.
Really? Evidence please? Thanks
binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:06 pm
Understanding kamma is not the same as judging others.
In the Pali suttas, the word "understanding" generally refers to direct experience or direct realization. Are you saying above you have direct realisation of kamma or were you saying you merely have beliefs or views/ideas about kamma? Thanks

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Aloka
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by Aloka » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:22 pm

.

I highly recommend listening to this talk about kamma that Ajahn Amaro gave at Amaravati Monastery a few years ago . He says that deterministic views about kamma are very common amongst westerners as well as asians - but that kamma isn't fixed because if it was, liberation would be impossible.



:anjali:

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L.N.
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:28 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:06 pm
Understanding kamma is not the same as judging others.
That may be true. However, stating that an innocent victim is not really innocent seems like a judgment call about others.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm
So what is your understanding of kamma in relation to the Rohingya? Is it your opinion that the present crisis situation of all these individuals is the result of evil actions in a past lifes?
It is my understanding that we cannot automatically rule out the possibility that at least some of the Rohingya are experiencing the fruits of their past actions.

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:28 pm
That may be true. However, stating that an innocent victim is not really innocent seems like a judgment call about others.
And since nobody claimed the above, your point is moot.

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:37 pm
Thanks B. I provided direct on-point unambiguous sutta quotes referring to "innocent victims". What is quoted above I think is simply too broad & I think you need to do better to support your theory that rape, murder & child abuse victims are so because of past life kamma.
I don't have to support it because it's not my theory.
I'm pointing at the distinction that just because someone is a victim, doesn't mean that they are innocent; they might be innocent, or not. But unless one can see other people's past lives and their kamma, there's no way of telling whether they are innocent or not.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:37 pm
Thanks B. I provided direct on-point unambiguous sutta quotes referring to "innocent victims".
And none of those suttas says that just anyone who happens to be a victim is also innocent.
binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:06 pm
Understanding kamma is not the same as judging others.
In the Pali suttas, the word "understanding" generally refers to direct experience or direct realization. Are you saying above you have direct realisation of kamma or were you saying you merely have beliefs or views/ideas about kamma? Thanks
I think that understanding kamma is not the same as judging others.

*sigh*
These discussions tend to be rather predictable. In these discussions, people, including many of those who nominally believe in rebirth or reincarnation, often defend those they perceive as victims, and automatically consider them innocent, allowing for no nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook, and accusing anyone who thinks in any way differently of victim blaming.

alfa
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by alfa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:47 pm

Binocular,

Victims deserve compassion. It does not matter if they are innocent. Let's say X gets cancer by smoking. Going by your logic, X is not an innocent victim of cancer. He is guilty of smoking. Does that mean X deserves no compassion? Get real. Do not analyse whether or not X is innocent. If he is a victim, show compassion. That's all.

binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:02 pm

alfa wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:47 pm
Victims deserve compassion. It does not matter if they are innocent.

Do you have any canonical support for this?
Let's say X gets cancer by smoking. Going by your logic, X is not an innocent victim of cancer. He is guilty of smoking.
No, that is your logic. By my logic, it is not possible for an ordinary person to determine whether someone is innocent or not.
Does that mean X deserves no compassion? Get real. Do not analyse whether or not X is innocent. If he is a victim, show compassion. That's all.
:redherring:

dharmacorps
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:14 pm

As far as I know, the Buddha never said Kamma was the only force in the universe. Obviously kamma is a very important one, but it is not possible to say "all things are kamma". Therefore discounting all sorts of tragedies and cruelties. Its very complex. That is also not to say that kamma does not have a role in this, bearing in mind that we have no idea of what kamma is operating in what direction where as we are non-buddhas and non-arahants.

DooDoot
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:06 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm
I'm pointing at the distinction that just because someone is a victim, doesn't mean that they are innocent; they might be innocent, or not. But unless one can see other people's past lives and their kamma, there's no way of telling whether they are innocent or not.
Your ideas, which you seem to believe are "kamma", seem to render the law of kamma as something random, without lawfulness. without predictability, without efficacy & not offering protection. This is why AN 3.61 appears tp completely refutes your ideas. Based on your ideas, there are no causes to the Rohingya Crisis, knowable in the present, which can provide guidance for a solution to the crisis. Instead, the causes of the Rohingya Crisis are only known to one who can see other people's past lives.

Its like I have a bacterial infection, which you appear to say is caused by my actions in a past life. Therefore, because the bacterial infection is caused by my actions in a past life, it is pointless I visit a doctor to use an antibiotic medicine.

chownah
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:18 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm
*sigh*
These discussions tend to be rather predictable. In these discussions, people, including many of those who nominally believe in rebirth or reincarnation, often defend those they perceive as victims, and automatically consider them innocent, allowing for no nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook, and accusing anyone who thinks in any way differently of victim blaming.
Perhaps you would be relieved of your sighing if you had presented more than just "How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??".....you presented it without any nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook.....the result was inciteful or should I say "in*sigh*tful.
chownah

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L.N.
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:28 pm
... stating that an innocent victim is not really innocent seems like a judgment call about others.
And since nobody claimed the above, your point is moot.
I thought somebody claimed the above in the following post:
binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:55 pm
How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??
binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:55 pm
*sigh*
These discussions tend to be rather predictable. In these discussions, people, including many of those who nominally believe in rebirth or reincarnation, often defend those they perceive as victims, and automatically consider them innocent, allowing for no nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook, and accusing anyone who thinks in any way differently of victim blaming.
I can't speak for anyone else, but all of these comments appear to be making judgment calls about others. I have no intention to accuse you. Just responding to the words written.

To answer the original question, how can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma? I would ask a different question: How can a person attain to an understanding of kamma (nominally or otherwise) and yet assert that slain children and raped women should not be regarded as innocent victims at the hands of their attackers?

How is it that a person who understands kamma would wish to highlight the theoretical past-life culpability of a child who has just been sliced in half and tossed in a river?
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

DooDoot
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am
To answer the original question, how can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma? I would ask a different question: How can a person attain to an understanding of kamma (nominally or otherwise) and yet assert that slain children and raped women should not be regarded as innocent victims at the hands of their attackers?
The Pali suttas say "kamma is intention". Since the recipients of violence never intended to engage in violence, it is not related to kamma.

Saengnapha
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am
To answer the original question, how can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma? I would ask a different question: How can a person attain to an understanding of kamma (nominally or otherwise) and yet assert that slain children and raped women should not be regarded as innocent victims at the hands of their attackers?
The Pali suttas say "kamma is intention". Since the recipients of violence never intended to engage in violence, it is not related to kamma.
Aren't the so called 'innocent recipients' experiencing their own ripening kamma? In Theravada, is there a kamma that is synonymous with prarabdha as taught in Vedanta?

binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:35 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:18 am
Perhaps you would be relieved of your sighing if you had presented more than just "How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??".....you presented it without any nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook.....the result was inciteful or should I say "in*sigh*tful.
I asked a question, but instead of reading it as a question, several posters read it as a rhetorical question (ie. not a question at all) and took it from there.
Meanwhile, I still don't know how there can be innocent victims when there is kamma.

binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am
Since the recipients of violence never intended to engage in violence
How do you know that??
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:06 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm
I'm pointing at the distinction that just because someone is a victim, doesn't mean that they are innocent; they might be innocent, or not. But unless one can see other people's past lives and their kamma, there's no way of telling whether they are innocent or not.
Your ideas, which you seem to believe are "kamma", seem to render the law of kamma as something random, without lawfulness. without predictability, without efficacy & not offering protection. This is why AN 3.61 appears tp completely refutes your ideas. Based on your ideas, there are no causes to the Rohingya Crisis, knowable in the present, which can provide guidance for a solution to the crisis. Instead, the causes of the Rohingya Crisis are only known to one who can see other people's past lives.

Its like I have a bacterial infection, which you appear to say is caused by my actions in a past life. Therefore, because the bacterial infection is caused by my actions in a past life, it is pointless I visit a doctor to use an antibiotic medicine.
I'm not going to defend stances you merely imagine I hold.
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am
How is it that a person who understands kamma would wish to highlight the theoretical past-life culpability of a child who has just been sliced in half and tossed in a river?
If only you'd have some compassion for the victim(s) of your virtue-signalling and strawmanning ...

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