Victims of Communism

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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The Thinker
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by The Thinker » Mon May 15, 2017 10:01 am

Both capitalism and communism are products of the mind, they are linked to the core, all political ideals are impermanent, socialism can exist for longer with right intention, unfortunately capitalism likes to remain ignorant of the truth and disables public services , whilst investing public( poor mans money) into their self interest and non moral goal?
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Will
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:06 pm

Anti-Nazism is common and accepted, yet anti-Communism is not very popular. Prager gives several reasons why this is so.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:48 pm

That is a great video. As a victim of communism myself, I've been annoyed by this total lack of awareness about communism that I've seen particularly on buddhist forums. It feels like being a jew on a nazist forum.

I would suggest to those claiming "capitalism and liberal democracy also have blood on their hands" to go live in communism somewhere and see how it is. But I don't mean as a tourist staying there 7 days. Nope, you need to live there for a couple of years in 1.500$ pib per capita, with the posibility to end up in a labor camp or jail for almost anything, with every little aspect of your life controlled by the state, a state for which you are just a number, not a human.

Nazism was infinitely better than communism. First of all, it considered people humans not numbers. A government that considers you a number will bring a lot of problems, for example it might say "demolish these people houses and built a flatblock on top of them. Then, move these people in this flatblock in apartments as big as a box. And nope, they can't move to another neighbourhood cause they live close to this factory and we don't want to lose money with transportation of these drones. It they don't like it, put them in the labor camp.". Or it can say "this person is unemployed. Put this person in super toxic factory starting from tomorrow and if he doesn't like it, put him in the labor camp. We need this drone to be productive".

Besides being just a number with zero human rights, there is the problem of living in 1.500$ pib per capita. Being so poor is much worse than people think. It's not like you have a normal life just like in the west but you have this little starvation problem and that's all. Nope, you're having problems with every aspect of your life due to this 1.500$ pib per capita. For example your school is a hellhole. Your hospital is a hellhole. Your home is a hellhole. Your city is a hellhole.

But poverty was never the biggest issue in communism. It was a small problem compared to oppression. Imagine having every aspect of your life controled by the state. The books you are allowed to read being carefully selected. Your TV running just 2 hours a day of communist propaganda and very rarely, a communist propaganda movie. Imagine the risk of getting in the labor camp for anything, even trivial things or even unjustly. For example maybe you disturbed an important person and eneded up in the labor camp. Or maybe a neighbour that hates you lied something about you to the police. This was the biggest problem in communism, the constant fear that your life can be destroyed any moment, knowing there is no justice that could save you. Every neighbor or colleague at work you had was like a policeman, he would snitch to the police about that bad joke you said when you were drunk and get you in the labor camp. Even family members snitched on other family members. And at every job, at least one of the people was an undercover policeman.

And this were problems for normal people with "good roots". People with "bad roots" had it even worse. They could not get promoted at their jobs for example and were highly discriminated by the state. Communist killed or put in labor camps all rich people and intellectuals. If you were a son of an intellectual, you had "bad roots". Only people from peasant or working class family had "good roots" and possibility of getting promoted.

This is much worse than nazism. Nazism only killed a small part of intellectuals and rich people, only those that were jewsish. Communism killed all rich people and intellectuals indiscriminately of their ethnicity. That's one of the reasons why nazism only killed 6 million while communism killed 100 million. Nazism also did not impovrish people or make their life living hell. It also treated people like humans, not like numbers. There is no possibility of comparing nazism and communism in terms of evilness.
Last edited by Circle5 on Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:51 pm

Which 'workers paradise' nation did you live in Circle5?
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:10 pm

Romania, a western country at that time that had a functional democracy since 1862. Communism had 10% support when it was imposed on us by Russia. They also took Rep. Moldova from us and made it part of URSS. To this day Romania has not unified with Rep. Moldova as Germany has done because Russia does not allow it. And people are still claiming it's the US that are imperialist.... Western countries disolved their colonial empires after WW 2, Russia was the only power to enlarge it's colonial empire and even steal land from other independent states. It is the only power who still refuses to free it's colonies. And when was the last time we heard an anti-imperialist from US complain about this ?

Even after the fall of communism, there are huge problems that remain. Eastern european countries that switched to capitalism got to 10.000$ pib per capita which is better than 1.500$, but far away from western europe. And there are big problems with establishing a functional democracy. There is a bitter fight between corrupt oligarchs and reformist, anti-corruption forces that is not always won. Some times the pro-corruption forces win. And we are speaking here about estern europe that is part of the EU, the other part is in infinitely worse shape. For example Rep. Moldova and Ukraine continued with communist ideas and are standing today at 1.800$ pib per capita. A piece of africa in the middle of europe. And of course they are controlled by totally corrupt political forces.

Let us all imagine how this world would have been without communism. Look at how important a country like Japan is, economically, culturally, etc. for asia. Look at how important USA and EU are. Imagine if estern europe + Russia + China would be just like USA, EU or Japan. Wouldn't that be an incredible world ? Now we need to wait another 100 years for that and it's unlikely it will happen since Russia, China and a number of other countries have dictatorships that don't look like stepping down too soon. And a totalitarian system means big breaks on economic development due to corruption. They will never be like a western country.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Sovatthika » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:35 am

i wish i had the time or patience to read this entire thread, but i don't. however, the historical movement known as communism, while being diverse, is often very divergent from communism in political theory, which is also diverse; marx's theory greatly differs from bakunin's, whose also differs from kropotkin's. i would just say one ventures into wrong speech when lumping all theories and practices of communism into one conglomeration (there is a lot of nasty right-wing propaganda also out there)
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:35 pm

Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Roz » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:38 pm

Dhammomhi wrote:i wish i had the time or patience to read this entire thread, but i don't. however, the historical movement known as communism, while being diverse, is often very divergent from communism in political theory, which is also diverse; marx's theory greatly differs from bakunin's, whose also differs from kropotkin's. i would just say one ventures into wrong speech when lumping all theories and practices of communism into one conglomeration (there is a lot of nasty right-wing propaganda also out there)
I think the Prager video makes an excellent point how idealistic people sympathize with communism. This would include religious people. Communism is clearly a secular copy of old Mosaic Judaism that had at its core ideology a non-hierarchical or equatable society. Old Mosaic Judaism also achieved its goals with absolute violence & genocide; as read in the Old Testament. This was continued (non-violently) by the original Christians as read in the Book of Acts who sold their property & pooled their wealth in a Christian commune. Many Buddhists are drawn to this sentiment such as the Dalai Lama who I read strangely called himself a Marxist.

I think the great moral or unBuddhist error of Marxism is the seizure of property which is theft. Even though the original capitalist system was also based on theft of agricultural land, Marxism is the theft of industrial capital or intellectual property. It is obvious workers did not have the brain power to invent industrial machines. Marxism is theft. This is what happened in Russia, which was looted from 1917.

Does Buddhism teach communism? My reading of Buddhism indicates it promotes individual initiative or karma & does not force its beliefs onto others. Communism forces its beliefs onto others therefore cannot be Buddhist. Anyone who has studied these things sincerely & objectively (rather than only watch Hollywood movies or receive high school education) comes to the view Communism was a far greater evil than Nazism.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Roz » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:50 pm

Will wrote:
This video is stupid & childish. It is American. America has never embodied the middle path of democratic socialism as Northern European nations did. Nations can provide basic necessities such as education & healthcare without being communist. This video is about communism rather than socialism.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Roz » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:59 pm

Circle5 wrote:Even after the fall of communism...
Dhamma Wheel deleted my post about the truth of Jewish Communism & Internationalism that lead to the Holocaust. Such censorship indicates my post must have been true. Dhamma Wheel is a politically correct New World Order website.

:hello: :rofl:

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Sovatthika » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:17 am

Roz wrote:
Dhammomhi wrote:i wish i had the time or patience to read this entire thread, but i don't. however, the historical movement known as communism, while being diverse, is often very divergent from communism in political theory, which is also diverse; marx's theory greatly differs from bakunin's, whose also differs from kropotkin's. i would just say one ventures into wrong speech when lumping all theories and practices of communism into one conglomeration (there is a lot of nasty right-wing propaganda also out there)
I think the Prager video makes an excellent point how idealistic people sympathize with communism. This would include religious people. Communism is clearly a secular copy of old Mosaic Judaism that had at its core ideology a non-hierarchical or equatable society. Old Mosaic Judaism also achieved its goals with absolute violence & genocide; as read in the Old Testament. This was continued (non-violently) by the original Christians as read in the Book of Acts who sold their property & pooled their wealth in a Christian commune. Many Buddhists are drawn to this sentiment such as the Dalai Lama who I read strangely called himself a Marxist.

I think the great moral or unBuddhist error of Marxism is the seizure of property which is theft. Even though the original capitalist system was also based on theft of agricultural land, Marxism is the theft of industrial capital or intellectual property. It is obvious workers did not have the brain power to invent industrial machines. Marxism is theft. This is what happened in Russia, which was looted from 1917.

Does Buddhism teach communism? My reading of Buddhism indicates it promotes individual initiative or karma & does not force its beliefs onto others. Communism forces its beliefs onto others therefore cannot be Buddhist. Anyone who has studied these things sincerely & objectively (rather than only watch Hollywood movies or receive high school education) comes to the view Communism was a far greater evil than Nazism.
ridiculous.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:11 am

Roz wrote: Dhamma Wheel deleted my post about the truth of Jewish Communism & Internationalism that lead to the Holocaust. Such censorship indicates my post must have been true. Dhamma Wheel is a politically correct New World Order website.
Anti-Semitism + New World Order + wildly off topic + conspiracy theorist = negative discussion value.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by SDC » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:11 am

Roz wrote: Dhamma Wheel deleted my post about the truth of Jewish Communism & Internationalism that lead to the Holocaust. Such censorship indicates my post must have been true. Dhamma Wheel is a politically correct New World Order website.

:hello: :rofl:
I removed it because of the many elements that were off topic. Your flair for the dramatic is so DW 2010, but I applaud the effort nonetheless.

And here I thought my day was going to end on a boring note. Here's looking at you...

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:00 pm

Roz wrote:
Circle5 wrote:Even after the fall of communism...
Dhamma Wheel deleted my post about the truth of Jewish Communism & Internationalism that lead to the Holocaust. Such censorship indicates my post must have been true. Dhamma Wheel is a politically correct New World Order website.

:hello: :rofl:
I did not get to read it but I am aware of the brutal civil war that happened in germany 1918 where millions died if that's what it was about. I know big parts of history are totally deleted from history books and nobody gets to know about them. For those that don't know: there was a brutal civil war following WW1 in germany between the communist party that had 2 million registered members and 95% of it's leaders and officers were jews vs the others. Communism was mainly invented and supported by jews in the beginning and they tried to get into power through brutal tactics and ended up killing millions in a brutal civil war.

In my country we too have some events from history totally deleted, like they never happened. I was a 9,80 student at history, top 0.4% in the country and was shocked to find out one day from the internet that such a thing as the romanian - hungarian war of 1919 existed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwXIuOuI02E
And there are many other smaller things deleted from history books. Sometimes a country can tell a completely alternative history to it's citizens. In Hungary for example they teach a totally alternative history that everyone else in the world laughs about. If you would know what kind of things the hungarians are teaching in their schools, you'll realize USA is not censoring or fabricating history too much.

Basically most censorship and fabrication of history that happens in USA has to do with the nazist. They needed to make them look like the devil to make the winner side look better and prevent nazism becoming popular again. The problem with nazism is not necessarily killing jews, this was mainly a problem with german nazist due to their history with the jews that is deleted from history books, such as that 1918 civil war. It was not that big of a problem in other nazist countries of the time such as Romania. The problem with nazism in all countries where it was present (and it was in a lot) was the assasinations and other brutal tactics they used to get into power + the fascism that followed afterwards. The problem with communism is even bigger: brutal tactics + even more brutal fascism + a return of the economy to the stone age.

The ugly rhetoric and actions about jews were part of the brutal tactics used to get into power. People love simplistic explanations, things like "the jews are the ones responsible for all our problems" or, in the case of communism, "the rich people and intellectuals are responsible for all our problems". And from this you get nazism killing jews and communism killing all rich people and intellectuals. It's a very efficient tactic in politics of today too and is called "rhinocerization process". You point the finger at a particular person or group of persons and say they are the devil. Anything coming from that side is evil, anything coming from your side is good.

PS: When I was in school, all the focus on showing the romanian nazist were bad was focused on their assasinations and brutal tactics used to get into power. They ended up our democratic culture that was running since 1862. Nothing about jews or them being racist and things like that. In my opinion it's better to condemn them in this way.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Mr Man » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:21 pm

Circle5 wrote:
I did not get to read it but I am aware of the brutal civil war that happened in germany 1918 where millions died if that's what it was about. I know big parts of history are totally deleted from history books and nobody gets to know about them. For those that don't know: there was a brutal civil war following WW1 in germany between the communist party that had 2 million registered members and 95% of it's leaders and officers were jews vs the others. Communism was mainly invented and supported by jews in the beginning and they tried to get into power through brutal tactics and ended up killing millions in a brutal civil war.
dxm, millions? Are you sure?

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:53 am

You're right, far less than millions and the number & of jewish leaders was 80% not 95%. Sorry for incorrect information but I remembered this from long ago, I checked it again right now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Re ... E2%80%9319

As you can see, this is not something secret in the sense of a secret conspiracy deleting this from everywhere. It's something official but just not presented at schools. The same as the 1919 romania - hungary war. It's nothing special since as I've said, Hungary is teaching a totally alternative history in schools. Any hungarian can one day find from the internet it's all a confabulation, but the majority of people don't generally do that. I found about that 1919 ro vs hu war one day completely by chance, by stumbling upon a youtube video. The huge majority of people never find out about such parts of history, they only know what they learned at school.

In Romania, in recent years a new alternative history has become very popular, known ironically as Daco-mania. Some historians have argued that we should not laugh this thing out because if nobody addresses it, it might one day get into schools. This alternative history says that the Dacians (ancient romanians) founded Rome and therefore romanians are the true founders of rome, not just a latinized area of the roman empire, with dacians only partially contributing to initial founding of Rome. They also claim ancient dacian language is actually latin but people got it wrong all along, and that also explains why our language is closer to latin than Italian. So Romanians are the purest blood of them all, being basically the most romans of the romans, the founders of the whole thing. We also have the claim that the most ancient writing was found in Romania 10.000 years ago, long before the sumerians. Therefore covering the problem of being the most ancient civilization to exist on this earth, important in any alternative history. And another idea that was super popular even before this recent Dacomania wave is that the Dacians were monotheist long before Jesus, being the fist monotheist people in the world and therefore the truest christians, truer even than the Jews.

This alternative history is based on half-true and controversial claims twisted to the maximum. Albania and Georgia also have the claim to be the founders of the roman empire with a similar alternative version of history. The slavic people of Macedonia who recently migrated there around year 500 claim to be actually Thracians that only speak slavic language but are not slavic and are therefore the true descendents of Alexander Macedon empire. And this is national policy took very seriously and causing big problems with Greece over it, Greece going so far to state they they will never accept Macedonia in the EU (any country has veto rights to block a new member) unless they drop this claim. They even forced them to use the name FYROM instead of Macedonia.

A whole alternative history can become the official history of a country, such as in Hungary, Macedonia, China, India, etc. We should not rely too much on history books since it is pretty unlikely to find in them a 100% true version of history. We can only have things like 90% vs 10% level of truth depending on the country.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:38 am

And speaking of deleted history and communist respect for international principles and morality...
During the Antonescu fascist regime, Romanian contribution to Operation Barbarossa was enormous, with the Romanian Army of over 1.2 million men in the summer of 1941, fighting in numbers second only to Nazi Germany.[85] Romania was the main source of oil for the Third Reich,[86] and thus became the target of intense bombing by the Allies. Growing discontent among the population eventually peaked in August 1944 with King Michael's Coup, and the country switched sides to join the Allies. It is estimated that the coup shortened the war by as much as six months.[87] Even though the Romanian Army had suffered 170,000 casualties after switching sides,[88] Romania's role in the defeat of Nazi Germany was not recognized by the Paris Peace Conference of 1947,[89] as the Soviet Union annexed Bessarabia and other territories corresponding roughly to present-day Republic of Moldova, and Bulgaria retained Southern Dobruja, but Romania did regain Northern Transylvania from Hungary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania#W ... er_Romania

To this day Russia refuses to let Rep. Moldova unite with Romania. Rep. Moldova is a country made up of ethnic Romanians, a piece of Romania simply taken as a war prize after the war, while those russian communist were presenting themselves as champions of international principles and of giving independence to former colonies.

To this day in 2017 they refuse to treat Rep. Moldova as an independent country, keeping them in check with the Tranznistria problem, keeping them in 1900$ pib per capita, the lowest in all europe, doing great efforts in political propaganda in order to keep corrupt russian aligned populist in power, etc. And people still complain about what England or France used to do in 1700, giving no attention to what communist did or what Russia of today is doing.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:39 pm

The how and why that Communists & their violent Leftist groups use to divide and conquer nations - dialectic with no middle or synthesis.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2256701 ... nts/print/
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by clw_uk » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:36 pm

I used to be a Communist, even a Stalinist at one stage. Now i'm a social-democrat/social-liberal

Despite its flaws, capitalism and liberal-democracy is way better than socialism or communism. Communism is horrible and leads to more death and suffering.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:45 pm

clw_uk wrote:I used to be a Communist, even a Stalinist at one stage. Now i'm a social-democrat/social-liberal

Despite its flaws, capitalism and liberal-democracy is way better than socialism or communism. Communism is horrible and leads to more death and suffering.
What turned you around?
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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