Future resolution of division in US society?

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santa100
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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby santa100 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:20 am

No_Mind wrote:And did I write the Garudhamma too?

At least we're not sick and never utter horrid words toward women and their natural cycle, like "dripping blood all over the place" as you just said. By the way, try to learn more about the Garudhamma and its historical background and context before criticizing it.

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No_Mind
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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby No_Mind » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:24 am

santa100 wrote:
No_Mind wrote:And did I write the Garudhamma too?

At least we're not sick and never utter horrid words toward women and their natural cycle, like "dripping blood" as you just said.


But dripping blood is dripping blood. Guys wet their bed sheets too if they have not masturbated or had sex for few days. Neither is a male priest with diarrhea acceptable (which is why priest are supposed to eat very little ordinarily and fast on day of puja). These are normal biological functions that are not acceptable during pujas.

How is it horrid? How is what I said wrong?

I was not being impolite .. just factual. What happened :?
Last edited by No_Mind on Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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santa100
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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby santa100 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:27 am

No_Mind wrote:
santa100 wrote:
No_Mind wrote:And did I write the Garudhamma too?

At least we're not sick and never utter horrid words toward women and their natural cycle, like "dripping blood" as you just said.


But dripping blood is dripping blood. How is it horrid? Guys wet their bed sheets if they have not masturbated for few days. How is what I said wrong?

I was not being impolite .. just factual. What happened :?

To be frank, it only exists in your twisted mind. I did not hear you mention men wetting their bed sheets. I only heard you said "dripping blood all over the place" to describe women during their cycle. That's just utterly unappropriate. Absolutely no respect for women.

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby No_Mind » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:28 am

I give up
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:33 am

Disciple wrote:
No_Mind wrote:
I have often wanted to raise this very point in DW.

One cannot be a Buddhist, believe in Kamma and at same time gripe about ones station in life.

Probably one of the reasons I am able to accept my mediocre position in society with equanimity is that the concept of Prarabdha Karma is drilled into our head from the time we are two years old.

Many of my Western friends here believe in Kamma at an intellectual level but are unable to accept it at a practical level. The world is the way it is due to Kamma and Kamma Vipaka which is unknown to us.

If we fall ill we say it is my Kamma, if we face bankruptcy we say it is our Kamma .. do you accept Kamma at real life granular level is the question.

:namaste:

Tbh that is a very depressing way to live especially if you are born lower caste and clean toilets for a living. I'd rather live in a nation with a more "Christian" mentality which I do thankfully.


I can see that it might seem depressing from a third party's point of view, but what about that of the toilet cleaner himself? If he has no talent for anything else, or lives in circumstances where nothing else is permitted or available to him, then isn't it more likely that viewing his lot in this way would be a source of consolation rather than an incitement to depression?

Granted, it isn’t a Buddhist way of regarding kamma, for in the Buddhist view though the particular circumstances of one’s birth are regarded as wholly kammically determined, one’s subsequent trajectory is not. Nonetheless, I should think that believing something like this would at least grant our toilet cleaner some contentment and equanimity. If nothing else it would save him from the alternative —one that would be truly depressing— namely, to be a toilet cleaner who's tormented by the notion that he's missing out on being something better.


    Now John at the bar is a friend of mine,
    He gets me my drinks for free.
    And he's quick with a joke, or to light up your smoke
    But there's someplace that he'd rather be.

    He says, "Bill, I believe this is killing me,"
    As a smile ran away from his face
    "Well, I'm sure that I could be a movie star
    If I could get out of this place."

    Oh, la la la, di da da,
    La la, di da da da dum... etc.

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Mr Man
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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:51 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Mr Man wrote:The Sutta offers a contrasting view to the actuality of the society at that time and is an exhortation, not an explanation (of the society).

The reality of society as it is (in the US), is that future position is largely determined by birth. Social mobility is declining and income inequality is increasing. In my opinion the cause for this is structural and not because of "different and varying temperaments, abilities and qualities", which do of course exist.


And how is favorable birth attained according to the Buddha:

In Majjhima Nikaya 135 a brahman raises the problem:

MN 135 wrote:There are found people who are short-lived, and those that are long-lived; there are found people who are very sick, and those that are healthy; there are found people who are hideous, and those that are beautiful; there are found people who are powerless, and those that are powerful; there are found people who are poor, and those that are rich; there are found people who are of low family, and those that are of high family; there are found people who are stupid, and those that are intelligent. What then, Master Gotama, is the reason that among human beings such inferiority and superiority are found?


The Buddha gave the reply:

Buddha wrote:Beings are owners of their kamma, heirs of their kamma; kamma is the womb from which they have sprung, kamma is their friend and refuge. Thus kamma divides beings into the high and low.


And this is on topic about the divisions in society by high and low and why these things occur. And then as my previous posts showed, one can still improve upon one's state (spiritual-meditation and/or worldly) with viriya (energy), persistence and determination.


This is taken from Piya Tan here: http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 5-piya.pdf

The Cūlla Kamma Vibhaṅga Sutta should not be misconstrued as a rational ethical argument for karma
and rebirth, especially from the statement that beings are owners of karma, heirs to karma, born in karma, bound by karma, have karma as their
refuge. It is karma that divides beings into low and excellent. [§4]6
This well known statement is also found in the Samsappati Pariyāya Sutta (A 10.205) which should be
studied in this connection.7
While the Culla Kamma Vibhaṅga Sutta speaks of one‟s “ownership” of one‟s karma, nowhere does it
say that everything is due to karma. The Sīvaka Sutta (S 36.21/4:230 f), for example, teaches that not
everything that we feel or experience are due to karma alone, but could be the working of any possible
eight conditions. The (Kamma) Nidana Sutta (A 3.33/1:134-136) compares one‟s karma to seeds that
depend on favourable conditions to germinate, or could be destroyed by burning (through spiritual development).

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mr Man,

Mr Man wrote:For the sake of transparency perhaps you could rename Dhamma wheel as "A libertarian discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravada"

That's entirely unnecessary, because whether it's governed based on libertarian principles, or social engineering from authoritarian-leftists thought-policing thought-crimes...



Paul you really cannot get beyond speaking in divisive rhetoric (you are the admin and should help to set the tone). Perhaps it's time for you to post another meme or a youtube clip LOL.

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:15 am

SDC wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi SDC
I think it is fairly clear that most of the active staff lean heavily to the right (some much more heavily than others) . If you think otherwise so be it.


I think you missed part of my point --- wherever the staff lands on the political spectrum, how we moderate sure does not reflect your assessment. Otherwise there would be blood stains: daily bans, suspensions and locked and missing threads en masse. That is simply not the case on DW as it stands at the moment.


The Blood stains are not always evident or obvious. They are there.

SDC wrote:And for the record, despite my best efforts with multiple surveys, I always land left of center. It doesn't just hurt you, it hurts me too. ;)


I wouldn't bother/put to much weight behind those things. In my opinion most are nothing more than a game and not to be taken seriously :)

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby SDC » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:49 am

Mr Man wrote:
SDC wrote:I think you missed part of my point --- wherever the staff lands on the political spectrum, how we moderate sure does not reflect your assessment. Otherwise there would be blood stains: daily bans, suspensions and locked and missing threads en masse. That is simply not the case on DW as it stands at the moment.


The Blood stains are not always evident or obvious. They are there.


You're sending shivers up my spine, Mr Man......

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby binocular » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:27 pm

SDC wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi SDC
I think it is fairly clear that most of the active staff lean heavily to the right (some much more heavily than others) . If you think otherwise so be it.
I think you missed part of my point --- wherever the staff lands on the political spectrum, how we moderate sure does not reflect your assessment. Otherwise there would be blood stains: daily bans, suspensions and locked and missing threads en masse. That is simply not the case on DW as it stands at the moment.
And for the record, despite my best efforts with multiple surveys, I always land left of center. It doesn't just hurt you, it hurts me too.

There is a difference between the left in the US, and the way the left is conceived of in Europe (and the rest of the world); just like there is a difference between the right in the US, and the way the right is conceived of in Europe (and the rest of the world).
American leftists are, by European standards, mildly right. By European standards, religious people, regardless of their particular religion, whether Christian or Buddhist, or whichever, tend to be closer to the right than to the left.

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:51 pm

Greetings Mr Man,

Mr Man wrote:Paul you really cannot get beyond speaking in divisive rhetoric...

And what constitutes divisive rhetoric, in your mind? Is it "divisive rhetoric" to have an opinion that differs from others? Is it "divisive" nowadays simply to disagree with sanitized mainstream positions? Must we "help to set the tone" only by speaking liberal viewpoints, because Western Buddhists are often liberals and can get emotionally triggered by opposing positions? Must we all sing from the same hymn sheet and conform to normalized or authorized (or dare I say it, "politically correct") views in order to have accord, or can diversity in opinion actually be tolerated?...

These appear to be important questions to answer if there is going to be any healing of division anywhere, let alone in the U.S.

Mr Man wrote:Perhaps it's time for you to post another meme...

If it pleases you, I'll post two...

Image
Image

... and since you like to tie this topic back to how this particular forum is run, I can assure you that diversity in opinion can be tolerated by the staff here at Dhamma Wheel. It's regarded as a pre-requisite for the job, nowadays. Some members may be more or less tolerant of diversity in opinions than others, but that's not on the staff's shoulders.

If you find a forum where there is even more diversity of opinion tolerated then I recommend you join it, because it will be a great forum.

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

“One to whom it might occur, ‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’. Or ‘I’m anything at all’— Is fit for Mara to address.” (SN 5.2)

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby SDC » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:06 pm

binocular wrote:There is a difference between the left in the US, and the way the left is conceived of in Europe (and the rest of the world); just like there is a difference between the right in the US, and the way the right is conceived of in Europe (and the rest of the world).
American leftists are, by European standards, mildly right. By European standards, religious people, regardless of their particular religion, whether Christian or Buddhist, or whichever, tend to be closer to the right than to the left.


I've heard this several times and am curious as to what the differences are (I think it is somewhat relevant to the OP) --- because in the US, to me, what was regular-left only a few years ago is now considered more moderate/centrist and what has emerged, as the typical mainstream liberal, is much further left than what it ever was in my 36 years. I think this is reminiscent of the typical conservative identifying further to the right in the lates 90's and post 9/11. Then it seems the "just left and right of center" peeps began to spread apart, especially after Trump emerged. I think there is a real vacuum for a balanced position on the spectrum over here and it would be nice to see something develop there. Sadly both sides seem to be "sticking to their guns" for now; well no guns for the left....yet

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:18 pm

Greetings SDC,

SDC wrote:--- because in the US, to me, what was regular-left only a few years ago is now considered more moderate/centrist and what has emerged, as the typical mainstream liberal, is much further left than what it ever was in my 36 years.

As far as I can see, from content and perspectives shared via the Internet, television etc., what you say is true.

I have a theory on that, but it's not (yet) relevant to the topic, so I can save that for another day.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

“One to whom it might occur, ‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’. Or ‘I’m anything at all’— Is fit for Mara to address.” (SN 5.2)

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby Phena » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:29 pm

Mr Man wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
Mr Man wrote:The Sutta offers a contrasting view to the actuality of the society at that time and is an exhortation, not an explanation (of the society).

The reality of society as it is (in the US), is that future position is largely determined by birth. Social mobility is declining and income inequality is increasing. In my opinion the cause for this is structural and not because of "different and varying temperaments, abilities and qualities", which do of course exist.


And how is favorable birth attained according to the Buddha:

In Majjhima Nikaya 135 a brahman raises the problem:

MN 135 wrote:There are found people who are short-lived, and those that are long-lived; there are found people who are very sick, and those that are healthy; there are found people who are hideous, and those that are beautiful; there are found people who are powerless, and those that are powerful; there are found people who are poor, and those that are rich; there are found people who are of low family, and those that are of high family; there are found people who are stupid, and those that are intelligent. What then, Master Gotama, is the reason that among human beings such inferiority and superiority are found?


The Buddha gave the reply:

Buddha wrote:Beings are owners of their kamma, heirs of their kamma; kamma is the womb from which they have sprung, kamma is their friend and refuge. Thus kamma divides beings into the high and low.


And this is on topic about the divisions in society by high and low and why these things occur. And then as my previous posts showed, one can still improve upon one's state (spiritual-meditation and/or worldly) with viriya (energy), persistence and determination.


This is taken from Piya Tan here: http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 5-piya.pdf

The Cūlla Kamma Vibhaṅga Sutta should not be misconstrued as a rational ethical argument for karma
and rebirth, especially from the statement that beings are owners of karma, heirs to karma, born in karma, bound by karma, have karma as their
refuge. It is karma that divides beings into low and excellent. [§4]6
This well known statement is also found in the Samsappati Pariyāya Sutta (A 10.205) which should be
studied in this connection.7
While the Culla Kamma Vibhaṅga Sutta speaks of one‟s “ownership” of one‟s karma, nowhere does it
say that everything is due to karma. The Sīvaka Sutta (S 36.21/4:230 f), for example, teaches that not
everything that we feel or experience are due to karma alone, but could be the working of any possible
eight conditions. The (Kamma) Nidana Sutta (A 3.33/1:134-136) compares one‟s karma to seeds that
depend on favourable conditions to germinate, or could be destroyed by burning (through spiritual development).

I agree with this Mr Man. I don't think kamma quite covers it in many cases. If we look at Donald Trump for example, he clearly is not a person of bright kamma, wisdom, virtue or generosity, yet he has much wealth and power.

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:02 pm

Phena wrote:I agree with this Mr Man. I don't think kamma quite covers it in many cases. If we look at Donald Trump for example, he clearly is not a person of bright kamma, wisdom, virtue or generosity, yet he has much wealth and power.


Yes, of course kamma does not explain everything, according to the Theravada tradition and I agree with that too. But kamma does explain quite a bit according to Buddhism, especially in regard to birth and this is confirmed by Bhante Dhammanando too:

Dhammanando wrote:. . . for in the Buddhist view though the particular circumstances of one’s birth are regarded as wholly kammically determined, one’s subsequent trajectory is not.


Donald Trump has much wealth and power, but is he happy? He seems to get quite upset when people make fun of him, when they criticize him. He wants to be praised constantly and goes on campaign rallies, even after he has won! :shock:

I know some wealthy people who are like that and constantly seek more, more wealth, more power and they are unhappy. I know some other wealthy people who are content with what they have, don't seek more, are generous with what they have and are quite happy.

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby SDC » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:09 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings SDC,

SDC wrote:--- because in the US, to me, what was regular-left only a few years ago is now considered more moderate/centrist and what has emerged, as the typical mainstream liberal, is much further left than what it ever was in my 36 years.

As far as I can see, from content and perspectives shared via the Internet, television etc., what you say is true.

I have a theory on that, but it's not (yet) relevant to the topic, so I can save that for another day.

Metta,
Paul. :)


I know there has been staunch opposition to the idea that these opposing positions have, in a sense, created each other, and while I do agree it is a bit unfair to go that far, I don’t think anyone would disagree that they surely echo and influence one another. Now I'm not saying one can't find good cause to reevaluate and/or reposition oneself accordingly, especially considering contemporary social conditions, but in this incendiary environment, deliberately taking positions in a manner akin to what you would normally see at a negotiating table, with either side over-positioning themselves as a display of bold sincerity, is just not cutting it right now. It is a pathetic stalemate of both sides doing their best (worst) to antagonize each other almost as a matter of sport without any real concern for reconciliation.

Perhaps the US waited too long to start talking about these things.

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:26 pm

Greetings SDC,

SDC wrote:I know there has been staunch opposition to the idea that these opposing positions have, in a sense, created each other....


It could be that, and to a certain degree it probably is, but I was actually thinking of something other than that. I'll explain it briefly here, although a brief summary won't really do it justice. As it's a big topic, subsequent discussion may be suited to its own topic....

In short, I think that instead of directly fighting the narrative of the traditional left, the global capital class have learned how to co-opt the ideology and language of the left, such that they have now re-framed the mainstream left's position in a way that serves their own economic and political agendas, whilst simultaneously placating people's emotional needs through the redefinition of what constitutes 'justice'.

In essence, they have attempted to subsume the left through social engineering and the false song of globalism - some have noticed the impact of this infiltration, others not yet. Therein lies the divide, but once it has been seen, it cannot be unseen.

(I'll leave you with that theory for a while, because it plays out in all manner of ways, and can be used as a model to shed light on all manner of domestic and global issues. I'd rather you "connect the dots" yourself and see if it makes sense to you, than to take it or reject it upon my say so.

Maybe you can apply it to work out who sabotaged Bernie Sanders and why? Maybe you can work out why Super PACs yield so much comparative influence in the DNC nomination process? Maybe you can work out why Clinton had so much money behind her, when supposedly the Republicans are the rich man's party? Maybe you can work out why the mainstream media have acted as they have both before and after Trump's election? ;) )

[ UPDATE: I have created a new topic for any subsequent discussion on this particular discussion thread... - The False Song of Globalism ]

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

“One to whom it might occur, ‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’. Or ‘I’m anything at all’— Is fit for Mara to address.” (SN 5.2)

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby No_Mind » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:02 am

Phena wrote:I agree with this Mr Man. I don't think kamma quite covers it in many cases. If we look at Donald Trump for example, he clearly is not a person of bright kamma, wisdom, virtue or generosity, yet he has much wealth and power.


Although a response from me is probably not very welcome at this moment .. cannot help but .. respond

What I say probably has parallels in Buddhism but I will share the Hindu perspective (because I believe they are not competing but complimentary philosophies on Kamma, Dhamma and liberation).

Karma is always to be viewed alongside Puruṣārtha. Puruṣārtha literally means an "object of human pursuit". It is a key concept in Hinduism, and refers to the four proper goals or aims of a human life. The four Puruṣārthas are Dharma (righteousness, moral values), Artha (prosperity, economic values), Kāma (pleasure, love) and Mokṣha (liberation).

All four Purusarthas are important, but in cases of conflict, Dharma is considered more important than Artha or Kama in Hindu philosophy. Moksha or liberation is considered the ultimate ideal of human life.

Even if Prarabdha Karma (Karma from past births that bears fruit in this life) provides the right birth, the trajectory of ones life is decided by Puruṣārtha that one chooses. Also Puruṣārtha plays a role in deciding Kriyamana Karma (Karma acquired in this lifetime the fruits of which will be experienced in the future) while birth is decided by Prarabdha Karma (Karma of past lifetimes).

The best way to explain is through a story -- two friends, one extremely virtuous and one a drunken fool visited an astrologer. The astrologer told the virtuous one .. you have a very bright future .. you will become very wealthy and your fame will spread far and wide .. to the drunk he said .. I can only see darkness in your future .. you will keep falling and falling .. till one day you die by the roadside .. poor, alone and a beggar.

The virtuous young man thought .. my life will be wonderful .. all I need to do is sit back and enjoy .. he never did a day's work from that day forward but indulged in sensual pleasures and wine.

The drunk thought .. since I am going to have a miserable life and death .. I might as well spend what time I have left being a good Dharmic man.

Three decades passed .. the once virtuous man did not prosper and neither did the once drunk person die a miserable death.

They decided to revisit the astrologer and ask for a refund. The astrologer asked the once virtuous man "did nothing good ever occur to you .. no stroke of unexplained good fortune?" to which he replied "yes, one day I found a gold coin by the roadside".

The astrologer then asked the other one "did nothing unexpected and bad ever occur to you?" to which he replied "yes, once when I was cutting a fruit I chopped off my thumb accidentally".

The astrologer told the once virtuous man "by your wrong Puruṣārtha you destroyed your good Karma .. what was to be millions was whittled down to a single gold coin" and to the once drunk person he said "by your Dharmic life you destroyed your past Karma .. what was to be a miserable death passed by with loss of no more than a thumb".

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby Phena » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:18 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Phena wrote:I agree with this Mr Man. I don't think kamma quite covers it in many cases. If we look at Donald Trump for example, he clearly is not a person of bright kamma, wisdom, virtue or generosity, yet he has much wealth and power.


Yes, of course kamma does not explain everything, according to the Theravada tradition and I agree with that too. But kamma does explain quite a bit according to Buddhism, especially in regard to birth and this is confirmed by Bhante Dhammanando too:

Dhammanando wrote:. . . for in the Buddhist view though the particular circumstances of one’s birth are regarded as wholly kammically determined, one’s subsequent trajectory is not.


Donald Trump has much wealth and power, but is he happy? He seems to get quite upset when people make fun of him, when they criticize him. He wants to be praised constantly and goes on campaign rallies, even after he has won! :shock:

I know some wealthy people who are like that and constantly seek more, more wealth, more power and they are unhappy. I know some other wealthy people who are content with what they have, don't seek more, are generous with what they have and are quite happy.


I agree David. As they say "look out, you might get what you wish for". Clearly for Trump more wealth and more power are a corrupting influence for him, because he is using it unwisely and lusting for it for the wrong reasons. But he was born into the Trump family (vipaka) where he had a Father who was strong influence, who also had wealth and power (by dubious means also) and instilled in him some unvirtuous ideals, so to a large extent this has helped shape Trump's character.

It's beneficial to remember that wealth, power and influence are part of the Eight Worldly Dhammas: gain/loss, praise/blame, fame/obscurity, pleasure/pain. The higher ideal/view is to renounce these, or at least have a sound understanding of their limitations and vacillation.

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Re: Future resolution of division in US society?

Postby Phena » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:57 am

No_Mind wrote:
Phena wrote:I agree with this Mr Man. I don't think kamma quite covers it in many cases. If we look at Donald Trump for example, he clearly is not a person of bright kamma, wisdom, virtue or generosity, yet he has much wealth and power.


Although a response from me is probably not very welcome at this moment .. cannot help but .. respond

Why would that be the case No_Mind? Always good to hear from you.

That's a revealing story - we always have the choice to shape our kamma in any given moment, for good (when applying the path) or bad (when not applying the path).

P.S. The third test was an excellent tussle wouldn't you say No_Mind? (both sides are well-matched IMO). I didn't see the last day, but looks like Australia held on for a draw. This keeps the series all-squared and sets-up the fourth test in Dharamsala to be a cracker!


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