Page 65 of 73

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:42 pm
by sentinel
Lal wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:59 pm


Have you or anyone at Sutta Central decided how to resolve the contradiction in translating vinnana as just consciousness?[/b]


It would be really helpful if one can illustrate how breathing in and out can lead to removal of greed, hate, and ignorance from one's mind.
FYI
If vinnana in paticasamupada is translated as consciousness then of course one is unable to decode it to one satisfactory answer . However , if vinnana is translated as craving for the consciousness , then it would make sense .

By training breathing alone one certainly unable to eliminate the greed hatred delusion . But , by observing the appearance and disappearance of the five aggregates , that surely possible to remove the defilements completely .

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:43 pm
by Sam Vara
Lal wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:59 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
My advice for members wishing to post on this issue of breath meditation is to completely ignore this.
I think it would be better to provide evidence rather than making statements.
I'm not "making statements"; I'm offering advice. But that advice is clearly based on evidence, which does not need repeating here because it is clearly set out in my previous post. It's on a par with your frequent advice to people not to post on this thread unless they meet certain stipulations. As you don't pay any ground-rent for this thread, I'll contradict it if I want to.
Have you or anyone at Sutta Central decided how to resolve the contradiction in translating vinnana as just consciousness?
You appear to be confusing me with someone else, Lal. I've made it clear above that I don't hold with any such translation, and I have no interest in Sutta Central. That's for you to resolve.
I did not say such a thing
Indeed, you merely implied it. That's not as serious as making a factual claim, but worth challenging, in my opinion.

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:21 am
by Lal
To continue with our discussion on Ānapānasati meditation:

Ānapānasati That Can Reduce and Eliminate Mental Stress Permanently

Introduction

1. In the last post we discussed how focusing the mind on breath CAN calm a mind. But we also saw that any relief one gets is temporary. Here we discuss the Ānapānasati that is in the Ānapānasati Sutta (MN 118).  If anyone disagrees, please quote from that Pāli sutta AND quote from my post to point out any discrepancy.

- We also briefly discussed in the previous post the idea that in order to permanently REDUCE and eventually REMOVE the "mental stress" we need to purify our minds.
- Here we will discuss some details, and show the connection to dasa akusala and Paticca Samuppāda, key concepts in Buddha Dhamma.

An Example of Getting Angry

2. We start with a simple case of getting angry. Being angry makes one turns into a totally different person as we briefly mentioned in the last post.

- Not only one will have an agitated (and uncomfortable) state of mind, but one's body complexion will change too. One's face becomes "very unpleasant" even to look at.
- With that agitated mindset, one may do something really bad (even hit or kill someone if things get out-of-control).
Now, let us see WHY we get angry.

3. The root cause of anger is greed. We get mad when someone or something gets in our way to prevent us from getting something that we really crave. Therefore, vyāpāda (anger) arises out of abhijjā (greed).

- Note that abhijjā and vyāpāda are the first two of pancanivarana (five "hindrances"): they are a "hindrance" to a calm state of mind!
- Furthermore, vyāpāda can bring rebirths in the nitaya (hell), while greed can bring rebirths as hungry ghosts (in preta or peta realms). Thus vyāpāda is worse than abhijjā.

Why Some People Get Angry Than Others?

4. As the Buddha always pointed out, in order to eliminate a problem, we must first find the causes that gave rise to that problem. Then when we eliminate those causes, the problem will NOT ARISE anymore. That is the meaning of the word, "nirōdha" ("nir" + "udā"). Dukkha nirōdha is "eliminating future suffering".

- When one understands dukkha samudaya ("san" + udaya" or how "san" give rise to suffering), then one can understand dukkha nirōdha or how to stop suffering from arising; see, "What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)" Jan 09, 2019 (p. 59); Jan 10, 2019 (p. 59) to p. 60.
- The tendency to get angry is a gati (pronounced "gathi"), which can be loosely translated as a "character quality", which gets established firmly if one has made it to be a habit.
- The more angry one gets (this is what is really meant by "āna" in Ānapānasati), more will the "tendency to get angry" becomes. This is important to understand.

5. This has been established in neuroscience in recent years. Our brains (or more accurately neural circuits in the brain) get "wired" for certain habitual activities. The more we do something, the easier it becomes to do it again.

- That holds not only for "defiled activities" like getting angry, to "getting addicted to do something on a regular basis like smoking and drinking, to eating too much, or even harmless (and useful) habits like driving.
- For example, after one learns to drive, it becomes a habit. When we drive, we are mostly on "auto pilot", especially if it is a regular drive like driving to work every day. Here is an article that is an easy read: "The Neuroscience of Behavior Change".[html]https://healthtransformer.co/the-neuros ... b567fa83c1[/html]

6. Therefore, the trick to stop getting angry is to "try to stop that anger when one becomes aware that one is angry" (this is what is really meant by "āpāna" or put out or get rid of, in Ānapāna, which comes from "āna" + "āpāna"). Many Pāli words are shortened to rhyme.

- The long-term solution is to think about the CONSEQUENCES of such an angry mindset, and focus one's attention deliberately on a neutral or a "pleasing thought object", say visualizing a calm Buddha image in one's mind.
- If such an angry mindset comes to one's mind while in a formal meditation session, then one COULD do "breath meditation" for a few minutes to get the mind off of that mindset.
- The easiest is to just to count to 10 in order to quickly stop the incoming thought and then to think about the bad consequences of such an angry mindset.
- The key point is that "stopping these angry thoughts from arising" MUST BE DONE any time and all the time, whether one is in formal meditation or just engaged in regular activities.

7. Thus a critical aspect of being able to stop such bad thoughts is to really understand the bad CONSEQUENCES of having such thoughts (which would feed that bad viññāna and could even lead to bad bodily actions).

- Therefore, an understanding of the bad consequences of immoral deeds and thoughts (kamma vipāka resulting from bad kamma) will be valuable; see, for example:
Pathama Niraya Sagga Sutta (AN 10.210): Causes for Rebirth in Good and Bad Realms Nov 19, 2018 (p. 49) AND Tue Nov 20, 2018 (p. 50).
How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm Wed Oct 31, 2018 (p.43).

How That Bad Viññāna Was Created in the First Place

8.  Now we need to see how this "viññāna of enemy Y" is created and where it exists. This is what is explained in Paticca Samuppāda. Don't worry. It is easy to see this process.

- Let us take an example. Persons X and Y were competing for something that they crave: a girl friend, a job, an elected position, we can think about many possible scenarios. But suppose X starts hating Y because Y is competing to win the heart of a girl.
- Now, every day X is thinking about how to block Y from "getting the girl". He may try to get Y kicked out of his job or to physically hurt or even kill Y.
- These conscious angry thoughts about Y are vaci sankhāra generated by X.

9. That is how a Paticca Samuppāda process starts with "sankhāra paccayā viññāna".

- The more one does any type of sankhāra (mano, vaci, and kaya), the more strong that "viññāna of enemy Y" will become in X's mind.
In simple terms, that means thinking about harming Y, speaking against Y, or doing something to hurt Y. All those activities will help that "viññāna of enemy Y" to grow.

10. When X is consciously generating such "bad thoughts" about Y, then X will be imagining (creating) scenarios in one's mind of hurting Y in some way. This could be telling a lie about Y's character to the girl in question or his boss, for example. Or it could even be creating in his mind how he will ambush Y and carry out a physical attack.

- This is called creating "nāmarūpa" (creating various scenarios) in one's mind: "viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa".

11. That will initiate the next step: "nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana".

- The more bad thoughts (vaci sankhāra) that X generates, his all six sense faculties (salāyatana or six āyatana) will start getting involved. He will be looking to see (using cakkhayatana)  whether Y is talking to that girl, and he may write a nasty email about Y to his boss (using kayāyatana), etc.
- Of course, some of these steps occur simultaneously, and go back and forth too. For example, "nāmarūpa paccayā viññāna" happens as well as "viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa". In other words, more "nāmarūpa" X makes in his mind, his bad viññāna will grow too.

12. Each of such activities will lead to contact with "san" (his greed towards the girl and hate towards Y), via "salāyatana pcayya (san)phassa" or "salāyatana paccayā samphassa".

- That invariably leads to the next step: "samphassa paccayā vēdanā", which is also known as "samphassa ja vēdanā", i.e., X is now generating a lot of "angry feelings that arise due to hate", which leads to "vēdanā paccayā tanhā".

13. It is important to note that "tanhā" is not greed. Tanhā really means "getting bonded to a situation via greed or hate".

- Now X cannot let go of it, and now he pulls it even closer: "tanhā paccayā upādāna": upādāna ("upa" + "ādāna") means 'pulling closer' (in the mind).
- This leads to the next critical step of "upādāna paccayā bhava". This is where that "kammic energy" that was initially created via the "viññāna of enemy Y" gets really established in the kamma bhava. It is easier to just think of "kamma bhava" as a form of energy that stays out there in the universe (just like visible rūpa are out there).
- This energy is also called dhammā (with a long ā) that can come back to one's mind at times. That is how the "subconscious" works, and we will discuss that at a later time.

Viññāna, Kamma Bhava, Kamma Bija - Related to Each Other

14. We can see that both viññāna and bhava are associated with kammic energy. The easiest way to remember is that kamma bhava is where kammic energy is, and those various types of kammic energies (good and bad) are kamma bija (seeds, pronounced "beeja") in the kamma bhava. They are waiting to bring kamma vipāka or the results of those kamma.

- When we do good kamma (say donating food to needy), we also create good kamma bija in the kamma bhava that can bring future "good vipāka" or "good results".
- Therefore, there are good and bad kamma bija (seeds) waiting in the kamma bhava, to bring in kamma vipāka, so to speak.
- Just like a seed can give rise to a plant, a kamma bija can give rise to a kamma vipāka. A good seed will give rise to a good plant (something useful, say apples or grains), and a bad seed will give rise to a bad plant (weeds).

15. When a kamma bija brings a kamma vipāka to the mind, it leads to a mindset that is compatible with the kamma vipāka; that is viññāna.

- Therefore, a viññāna can be good too (in a mundane sense), for example, when engaging in a meritorious deed. We first need to get rid of "bad viññāna". All viññāna are reduced to "pure consciousness" at the Arahant stage. It may take some time to grasp this point.
- Earlier we saw (#8-#13) that viññāna is the "initiator" of a kamma bija that is "deposited" in the kamma bhava. Then that kamma bija will be waiting for right "conditions" to bring that mindset back to the mind.
- Then that mindset (viññāna) can lead to doing more sankhāra (and kamma) that will in turn make that viññāna to grow; that will in turn lead to strengthening the corresponding kamma bija in the kamma bhava.
- Then a corresponding gati (or gathi) is established. It is important to understand what is meant by gati. Then it will be easier to how different gati (including the "angry gati" of X that we discussed above) are established.
"The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)", Oct 25, 2018 (p.43)
"Post on habits (Pali word “gati”, but gati is more that habits)", 18, 2018 (p. 22).
"How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View",  Nov 28, 2018 (p. 50)
"Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein", Oct 27, 2018 (p. 43)
"Gati to Bhava to Jāti – Ours to Control", Nov 15, 2018 (p. 47).

Putting It All Together – These Fundamentals Are Essential

16. So, now we are starting to see the connections among these different terms: sankhāra, viññāna, bhava, kamma bija, gati, Ānapānasati, etc.

- Whenever you have time, you may want to go back and read relevant previous posts. With repeated readings, things will become much more clear.
- In the suttas, the Buddha used this pattern of repeating stuff over and over. That makes it easier for these concepts to sink in.
- Please don't hesitate to ask questions if something is not clear.

17. Understanding Buddha Dhamma is all about understanding the steps in Paticca Samuppāda:

Yō paticcasamuppādam passati,
so Dhammam passati.
Yō Dhammam passati,
so paticcasamuppādam passati


One who sees paticcasamuppāda
sees the Dhamma.
One who sees the Dhamma
sees paticcasamuppāda..

(Mahā­hatthi­pa­dopa­ma Sutta (MN 28); at the end)

- If one to understands Paticca Samuppāda, one needs to understand all these key terms like sankhāra, viññāna, bhava, kamma bija, gati, Ānapānasati, etc.
- Other relevant posts are listed below. The more one reads and contemplates on, the more one will be able to understand:

"Paticca samuppada vibhanga Sutta (SN 12.2)", Dec 19, 2018 (p. 54).
"Viññāna – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations", Dec 21, 2018 (p. 55); discussion continued to Dec. 23, 2018 (to p. 57).
"Paticca Samuppāda and Viññāna", Dec 23, 2018 (p. 57).
"Pali to English Translations – Problems With Current Translations",   Dec 26, 2018 (p. 57).
"Connection Between Sankhāra and Viññāna", Dec 29, 2018 (p. 57).
"Viññāna and Sankhara – Connection to Paticca Samuppāda", Jan 01, 2019 (P. 57).

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am
by DooDoot
Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:21 am
Here we discuss the Ānapānasati that is in the Ānapānasati Sutta (MN 118).  If anyone disagrees, please quote from that Pāli sutta AND quote from my post to point out any discrepancy.
Thank you for your invitation, Lal. I was keen to point out any discrepancy however I could not find anything directly related to the Ānapānasati Sutta in your post. For example:

1. The Ānapānasati Sutta (unlike the Satipatthana Sutta) does not appear to mention awareness of hindrances, such as anger.

2. Particularly, each of the last 14 steps of the Ānapānasati Sutta include the phrase: "He trains himself': which appears to refer having the three trainings of higher morality, higher concentration and higher wisdom. Therefore, it appears the mind is always concentrated, more or less, in every stage of Anapanasati.

3. Particularly the 3rd tetrad, about the mind, is written as completely performed with knowing each in & out breath; thus performed with full concentration (yet not always completely pure).

4. About the 3rd tetrad, the Ānapānasati Sutta says: "I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness". Therefore, the 3rd tetrad appears not to be about hindrances but something much deeper.

5. In summary, it appears the Ānapānasati Sutta describes a fruition that is without hindrances; that the hindrances have been abandoned before the start of Ānapānasati.
Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:21 am
"sankhāra paccayā viññāna".

- The more one does any type of sankhāra (mano, vaci, and kaya)

Paticca samuppada vibhanga Sutta (SN 12.2)", Dec 19, 2018 (p. 54).
The Paticca samuppada vibhanga Sutta (SN 12.2) definitely does not refer to "mano sankhāra". It appears "mano sankhāra" is only found in mundane (lokiya) suttas about kamma. The Paticca samuppada vibhanga Sutta (SN 12.2) refers to sankhāra (citta, vaci, and kaya).

As for the term "kaya sankhāra", this is found in both the Ānapānasati Sutta and the Paticca Samuppada Vibhanga Sutta.

My personal view on this is:

1. When nama-rupa has mindfulness & wisdom so to engage wise intention & wise attention, the name-rupa calms the distracting thoughts & hindrances that are citta & vaci sankhara. The mindful nama-rupa (4th link) calms citta & vaci sankhara (2nd link).

2. When citta & vaci sankhara is calmed, what remains in this concentrated mind is kaya sankhara (in & out breathing), which remains agitated from past sankhara. Therefore, step 4 of Anapanasati is calming the kaya sankhara (which is the same kaya sankhara as found in Paticca Samuppada).

3. When kaya sankhara is calmed (step 4), what arises is a new type of subtle "citta sankhara", namely, rapture & happiness. Step 8 of Anapanasati is the calming of this citta sankhara.

4. After step 8 of Anapanasati, the citta (mind) is further purified, until the mind ends the ignorance (1st link) of Paticca Samuppada in the 4th tetrad of Anapanasati.

5. In summary, imo, the kaya, vaci & citta sankhara (2nd link) of Paticca Samuppada are the same as the kaya & citta sankhara calmed in Steps 4 & 8 of Anapanasati.

6. In deeper jhana practise, the most subtle vaci sankhara (namely, vitakka & vicara) are completely calmed with the 2nd jhana and the most subtle breathing (kaya sankhara) is completely calmed with the 4th jhana.

7. Again, the calming of these (2nd link) Paticca Samuppada sankhara using Anapanasati & jhana leads to a pure mind that is used to destroyed the (1st link) Paticca Samuppada ignorance.

Anyway, that is my view on the relationship between Paticca Samuppada & Anapanasati. I am not claiming to be 100% correct above however I hope you have the non-attachment of mind to be able to read & fully consider my post. :smile:

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:24 am
by Lal
DooDoot wrote:
1. The Ānapānasati Sutta (unlike the Satipatthana Sutta) does not appear to mention awareness of hindrances, such as anger.
From the sutta (MN 118):

" Ānāpānassati, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā mahapphalā hoti mahānisaṃsā. Ānāpānassati, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūreti. Cattāro satipaṭṭhānā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satta bojjhaṅge paripūrenti. Satta bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā bahulīkatā vijjāvimuttiṃ paripūrenti."

Translated:
"“Bhikkhus, when Ānāpānassati is developed and cultivated, it is of great benefit leading to ultimate release. When Ānāpānassati is developed and cultivated, it fulfils cattāro satipaṭṭhāna (the four foundations of mindfulness). When the four foundations of mindfulness are developed and cultivated, they fulfil the seven enlightenment factors (satta bojjhaṅga). When the seven enlightenment factors are developed and cultivated, they fulfill ultimate knowledge and release (vijjāvimuttiṃ paripūrenti)".

So, Ānāpānassati and Satipaṭṭhāna are the same and both lead to Nibbana (Arahanthood). Satipaṭṭhāna describes the steps in more detail, but the key is to first understand what is meant by Ānāpāna. That is what I tried to do.
- So, one needs to explain how breathing in and out can fulfill both Ānāpānassati and Satipaṭṭhāna and lead to the Arahanthood (Nibbana).
- Yes, anger is one of the first defilements to be removed by Ānāpānassati. Anger when becomes a habit (gati), can lead to rebirth in the niraya.

P.S. I had forgotten to include a link in #5 in my previous post. I have corrected that, but here it is:
Here is an article that is an easy read: "The Neuroscience of Behavior Change".[html]https://healthtransformer.co/the-neuros ... b567fa83c1[/html]

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:04 pm
by sentinel
Breathing trainings suppresses angers , it doesn't remove angers . Breathing trainings when achieved to a certain degree of calming is used to practise four foundation i.e. the first link mindfulness in the seven factors of enlightenment .

Without practising the four foundation of mindfulness on body among the body , feeling , consciousness and dhamma , there is no liberation possible .

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:06 pm
by DooDoot
Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:24 am
Yes, anger is one of the first defilements to be removed by Ānāpānassati. Anger when becomes a habit (gati), can lead to rebirth in the niraya.
The above seems to be mixing up mundane (lokiya) dhamma with supramundane (lokuttara) dhamma. The tendency (anusaya) towards defilements can be removed by Ānāpānassati however I said anger should be under control and non-arisen before the practise of Ānāpānassati. From beginning to end, I think there should be no thoughts during Ānāpānassati. Since every step & stage of Ānāpānassati is described with awareness of breathing, it seems there is no place for ordinary thinking in Ānāpānassati. I think the only anger that can be experienced in Ānāpānassati is a "non-verbal residue" of anger from past kamma that is stored within the body & mind. This anger is only a defilement or "energy". It is not thinking, such as: "I hate Fred Smith". The Dipa Sutta says:
So if a monk should wish: 'May neither my body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging, be released from fermentations (asava),' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:32 pm
by Lal
DooDoot said:
From beginning to end, I think there should be no thoughts during Ānāpānassati.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion.
- All I am saying is that it is NOT the Ānapānasati bhāvanā described in MN 118. That Ānapānasati can not only suppress and remove anger, but can also lead to Arahanthood at the end.

There is no Buddhist bhāvanā that does not involve contemplation.
From the same sutta (MN 118): "Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, muṭṭhassatissa asampajānassa ānāpānassatiṃ vadāmi." OR, "Bhikkhus, I do not recommend cultivation of ānāpānassati for those who have not comprehended "san" and thus cannot grasp the key concepts".

There is no point in continuing this discussion. If you think breathing in and out is Ānapānasati, that is fine with me.
Unless someone can provide evidence directly from the sutta, I will not respond to any further statements.

It is essential to realize that suttas CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be translated word-by-word. They need to be explained in detail with an understanding of the key concepts involved. See, for example:
"Pali to English Translations – Problems With Current Translations",  Dec 26, 2018 (p. 57).
"Sutta – The Need to Explain Deep Sutta Verses in Detail", Jan 07, 2019, p. 58.

P.S. I do understand that most of you (and even your teachers) may not have come across these explanations. As I have mentioned before, no one can figure these out by themselves unless explained by a Buddha or a true disciple of a Buddha. I just hope that everyone will at least read these posts and try to judge these explanations on their own merit. If I have made any mistakes, I am willing to correct them, if evidence from the Tipitaka presented.

P.P.S. The word "asampajānassa" in the above verse is an interesting one. "Pajāna" is to comprehend. "Sampajāna" is to comprehend "san".
Therefore, the opposite, "asampajāna" refers to someone who has not comprehend how "san" or defilements (dasa akusala) lead to suffering.
This is why it is necessary to have a knowledge of this background material where "san" is a key term.
See: "What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)", Jan 09, 2019 (p. 59); Jan 10, 2019 (p. 59) to p. 60.

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:09 am
by DooDoot
Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:32 pm
If you think breathing in and out is Ānapānasati, that is fine with me.
Unless someone can provide evidence directly from the sutta, I will not respond to any further statements.

what is really meant by "āpāna" or put out or get rid of, in Ānapāna, which comes from "āna" + "āpāna"). Many Pāli words are shortened to rhyme.
OK. I think i get it... :?
On whatever occasion a monk get's rid of long discerns, 'I am getting rid of long'; or getting rid long, discerns, 'I am getting rid long'; or getting rid short, discerns, 'I am getting rid short'; or getting rid short, discerns, 'I am getting rid short'

MN 118

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:38 am
by Lal
On whatever occasion a monk get's rid of long discerns, 'I am getting rid of long'; or getting rid long, discerns, 'I am getting rid long'; or getting rid short, discerns, 'I am getting rid short'; or getting rid short, discerns, 'I am getting rid short'
It is a better translation to say: "I am getting rid of long-ingrained bad habits (passāsa or āpāna), and I am making a bigger effort to cultivate (assāsa or āna) must have good habits".

After some time of doing Ānapānasati, only minor bad habits remain to be removed, and most good habits have been cultivated and minor improvements are needed.

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:28 am
by DooDoot
Lal wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:38 am
It is a better translation to say: "I am getting rid of long-ingrained bad habits (passāsa or āpāna), and I am making a bigger effort to cultivate (assāsa or āna) must have good habits".
OK... also: "I am getting rid of short-ingrained bad habits (passāsa or āpāna), and I am making a smaller effort to cultivate (assāsa or āna) must have good habits"........... However, when the habits are gone, the mind still experiences breathing as long, short, affecting the body & mind, calming the body & mind, etc.

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:43 am
by Lal
DooDoot wrote:
However, when the habits are gone..
All defiled habits are gone only at the Arahant stage. This is not something that can be done easily (you may not have meant it that way; but just to make sure). I hope to describe the steps involved in future posts.

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:09 pm
by auto
anapanassati is also for to interrupt vacisankhara.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.1/pli/ms
Tena ca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhunā imesu pañcasu dhammesu patiṭṭhāya cattāro dhammā uttari bhāvetabbā—asubhā bhāvetabbā rāgassa pahānāya, mettā bhāvetabbā byāpādassa pahānāya, ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya, aniccasaññā bhāvetabbā asmimānasamugghātāya. Aniccasaññino, bhikkhave, anattasaññā saṇṭhāti. Anattasaññī asmimānasamugghātaṃ pāpuṇāti diṭṭheva dhamme nibbānan”ti.
ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya

and maybe that is why there isn't vitakkavicara, vacisankhara only kaya- and cittasankharo..atleast i haven't yet find it in anapanassati sutta

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:24 pm
by Lal
auto wrote:
and maybe that is why there isn't vitakkavicara, vacisankhara only kaya- and cittasankharo..
That is right.

When one cultivates Ānapāna (Satipatthana), vitakka and vicara subside, and one cultivates savitakka and savicara. It is important to understand the difference between those two sets of Pali words.

In simple terms, vitakka and vicāra involve defiled thoughts: Immoral thoughts are the worst, but vitakka/viacara also include craving for sense pleasures. This is why one needs to at least suppress the cravings for sense pleasures to get to jhanas. These are the thoughts that need to be discarded from one's mind ( "āpāna").
- But it is a step-by-step process. One cannot expect to be able to get rid of thoughts of sense pleasures in the beginning. However, at least while in formal meditation, one can suppress such thoughts, especially if one is thinking about Dhamma concepts and thus is engaged in savitakka/savicara.

Savitakka/savicara are "good thoughts" (to be taken in or "āna"), including nekkhamma (moving away from sense pleasures) and avyapada (compassionate) thoughts.

I think I may have addressed this in the post: "Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra", Nov 03, 2018 (p.43)

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:43 pm
by auto