The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

A forum for Dhamma resources in languages other than English
Lal
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:03 pm

That essay is about you and the Venerable you follow. It's about what you both do to the Pāli language. I think it is highly relevant, especially in this particular thread.
That is interesting.
I did not see my name or Waharaka Thero's name there. In any case, if he or you want me to address something, it MUST BE about something that I have discussed. He or anyone else can quote me from what I have written and point out any problems.

On the other hand, I am pointing out something that is very specific.

This is what happens all the time. Quoting others (who themselves do not want to engage in a real discussion) is not very productive.

This is just a distraction. I will not respond anymore, unless there is something substantial to respond to.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:06 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:03 pm
I will not respond anymore
Thank you.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Lal
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:26 pm

Thank you.
I hope you or he will respond to my question. Thank you!

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:30 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:26 pm
Thank you.
I hope you or he will respond to my question. Thank you!
How quickly your promises are broken :cry:

Ven Bodhi? How will he ever know you wrote this?

As for me, I am a Mahāyānika. What I have to say as to what happens to an arhat upon awakening would be off-topic for this forum.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Lal
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:35 pm

How quickly your promises are broken :cry:

Ven Bodhi? How will he ever know you wrote this?
You are trying to evade the real problem. So, I have legitimate reason to respond.

It does not matter who the translator is. The translator has an obligation to either correct it or explain the obvious problem.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:39 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:35 pm
How quickly your promises are broken :cry:

Ven Bodhi? How will he ever know you wrote this?
You are trying to evade the real problem. So, I have legitimate reason to respond.

It does not matter who the translator is. The translator has an obligation to either correct it or explain the obvious problem.
If you want to contact Ven Bodhi with your inquiries, I would recommend trying to submit an inquiry where he is currently a resident: https://www.baus.org/en/about-us/contact-us/
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Lal
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:51 pm

If you want to contact Ven Bodhi with your inquiries, I would recommend trying to submit an inquiry where he is currently a resident: https://www.baus.org/en/about-us/contact-us/
I have no idea whether it is bhikkhu Bodhi or not. It is Sutta Central's responsibility. And don't send me Sutta Central's contact info.

They are aware of this issue at Sutta Central. They just choose not to respond. For the benefit of the community, I hope they would.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:53 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:51 pm
If you want to contact Ven Bodhi with your inquiries, I would recommend trying to submit an inquiry where he is currently a resident: https://www.baus.org/en/about-us/contact-us/
I have no idea whether it is bhikkhu Bodhi or not. It is Sutta Central's responsibility. And don't send me Sutta Central's contact info.

They are aware of this issue at Sutta Central. They just choose not to respond. For the benefit of the community, I hope they would.
I don't think they are aware of any such issues. I don't think they choose not to respond.

Why would you think so?

Also, have you contacted SuttaCentral administration before?
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 4805
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:10 am

Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:50 pm
There is something VERY WRONG with this translation. One's consciousness DOES NOT cease when attaining the Arahanthood (ONE DOES NOT BECOME UNCONSCIOUS).
This matter was discussed many decades ago, such as by Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (here), who suggested a better English translation for "nirodha" in Dependent Origination is "quenching". Similar, Thailand's foremost scholar monk P.A. Payutto also discussed this matter. Its old news.
A problem with the word "nirodha"

The word nirodha has been translated as "cessation" for so long that it has become standard practice, and any deviation from it leads to queries. Even in this book I have opted for this standard translation for sake of convenience and to avoid confusing it for other Pali terms (apart from lack of a better word). In fact, however, this rendering of the word "nirodha" as "ceased" can in many instances be a mis-rendering of the text.

Generally speaking, the word "cease" means to do away with something which has already arisen, or the stopping of something which has already begun. However, nirodha in the teaching of Dependent Origination (as also in dukkhanirodha, the third of the Four Noble Truths) means the non-arising, or non-existence, of something because the cause of its arising is done away with. For example, the phrase "when avijja is nirodha, sankhara are also nirodha," which is usually taken to mean "with the cessation of ignorance, volitional impulses cease," in fact means "when there is no ignorance, or no arising of ignorance, or when there is no longer any problem with ignorance, there are no volitional impulses, volitional impulses do not arise, or there is no longer any problem with volitional impulses." It does not mean that ignorance already arisen must be done away with before the volitional impulses which have already arisen will also be done away with.

Where nirodha should be rendered as cessation is when it is used in reference to the natural way of things, or the nature of compounded things. In this sense it is a synonym for the words bhanga, breaking up, anicca, transient, khaya, cessation or vaya, decay. For example, in the Pali it is given: imam kho bhikkhave tisso vedana anicca sankhata paticcasamuppanna khayadhamma vayadhamma viragadhamma nirodhadhamma: "Monks, these three kinds of feeling are naturally impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen, transient, subject to decay, dissolution, fading and cessation."[S.IV.214] (All of the factors occurring in the Dependent Origination cycle have the same nature.) In this instance, the meaning is "all conditioned things (sankhara), having arisen, must inevitably decay and fade according to supporting factors." There is no need to try to stop them, they cease of themselves. Here the intention is to describe a natural condition which, in terms of practice, simply means "that which arises can be done away with."

As for nirodha in the third Noble Truth (or the Dependent Origination cycle in cessation mode), although it also describes a natural process, its emphasis is on practical considerations. It is translated in two ways in the Visuddhimagga. One way traces the etymology to "ni" (without) + "rodha" (prison, confine, obstacle, wall, impediment), thus rendering the meaning as "without impediment," "free of confinement." This is explained as "free of impediments, that is, the confinement of samsara." Another definition traces the origin to anuppada, meaning "not arising", and goes on to say "nirodha here does not mean bhanga, breaking up and dissolution."

Therefore, translating nirodha as "cessation", although not entirely wrong, is nevertheless not entirely accurate. On the other hand, there is no other word which comes so close to the essential meaning as "cessation." However, we should understand what is meant by the term. In this context, the Dependent Origination cycle in its cessation mode might be better rendered as "being free of ignorance, there is freedom from volitional impulses ..." or "when ignorance is gone, volitional impulses are gone ..." or "when ignorance ceases to give fruit, volitional impulses cease to give fruit ..." or "when ignorance is no longer a problem, volitional impulses are no longer a problem."

Even in the forward mode, there are some problems with definitions. The meaning of many of the Pali terms are too broad to be translated into any single English words. For instance, avijja paccaya sankhara also means "When ignorance is like this, volitional impulses are like this; volitional impulses being this way, consciousness is like this; consciousness being this way, body and mind are like this; ..."

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Payu ... tm#problem
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2427
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Contact:

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:58 am

One thing to wit is how all these hidden treasures of ideas never even made it into the Theravadin commentaries (which don't set the bar for accuracy very high). Not having gained a footing in neither the canon or the commentaries these ideas "remained hidden", that is the explaination given, "hidden".

Oh they were hidden alright, definitely not supressed and rejected ey, that explains it, let's rewrite everything now that we found these hidden treasures and nevermind that they don't make sense.

I think to mainstream these ideas you have to wait until nobody understands the Dhamma, come back in 2500 years.

Moderator note: ad hominem insults removed.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 4805
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:02 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:58 am
.. "remained hidden"...
Not sure what the above is about but I have not read anyone on this topic referring to "hidden meanings". Instead, the posters are merely pointing out the obvious, per sutta, namely, consciousness does not cease for the Arahant. That an Arahant is conscious and has consciousness is described in countless suttas. Its all about translation from Pali to English and being cautious to not cling to the English.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2427
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Contact:

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:04 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:02 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:58 am
.. "remained hidden"...
Not sure what the above is about but I have not read anyone on this topic referring to "hidden meanings". Instead, the posters are merely pointing out the obvious, per sutta, namely, consciousness does not cease for the Arahant. That an Arahant is conscious and has consciousness is described in countless suttas. Its all about translation from Pali to English and being cautious to not cling to the English. :smile:
well then you have not read this thread.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 4805
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:05 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:04 am
well then you have not read this thread.
I have read my posts in this thread. :thumbsup:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2427
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm
Contact:

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:08 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:05 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:04 am
well then you have not read this thread.
I have read my posts in this thread. :thumbsup:
You ideas are bad too so you can well apply it to yourself. In example you and Lal have one thing in common in that you hold Vinnanam Anidassanam not referring to Nibbana. Thus you find yourself in the company of Waharaka rejecting Mahavihara interpretations and what can be inferred from the Sutta, congrats[read: my condolences].

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 4805
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:15 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:08 am
you hold Vinnanam Anidassanam not referring to Nibbana.
Sad but true. Lal and I certainly both agree here. Add Bhikkhu Sujato also. And possibly Bhikkhu Bodhi. Apart from them, I am not aware of any other monk that has a view on this, apart from Thanissaro (who thinks it is Nibbana :mrgreen: . Maybe Nannananda also). But then Thanissaro appears to be "work in progress". His views appear to keep changing.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests