The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:20 am

Greetings KStan,
kstan1122 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:09 am
For some who do not think that the Abhidhamma is not buddhavacana, please take sometime to rethink why those monks (arahant) take the trouble to write down the Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma of the Tipitaka.
Questioning the authenticity of the Abhidhamma is permitted at Dhamma Wheel, other than in the Classical Theravada and Abhidhamma sub-forums, where such discussion is deemed off-topic.

The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:56 am

kstan1122 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:13 am
For some who do not think that the Abhidhamma is buddhavacana...
Thanks Kstan but this comment seems to be not relevant because there appears to be a CONTRADICTION between Abhidhamma & Sutta in respect to the sankhara of DO. Please follow the discussion. Thanks :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:05 am

@Sam Vara: The following is what "you explained" on Dec 22, 2018 on p. 56:
No, they are not. The alternative explanation to yours is the one I have offered, derived from the above post where I provide sources as you requested. It is that "viññāṇa is a word with semantic range such that its meaning depends to some extent on the context where it is used". 

Sometimes, viññāṇa might - depending on context - mean "just consciousness", but the claim that it always means that is your claim, not mine. Nobody in the sources I cited is claiming that. It's what is known as a "straw man", and suggests that you are merely rehearsing arguments that you feel comfortable with, rather than dealing with the point that is actually being presented.
On Dec 22, 2018 on p. 57, you wrote:
 
Lots of commentators and scholars think it has the former, wider, meaning, and that is equally consistent with what it says in the Tipitaka.
On Dec 23, 2018 on p. 57, you wrote:
Yes, I think that virtually everyone familiar with Theravada would agree that viññāṇa is a key concept, and what the highest goal is. You can find these discussed in many introductory books, and here on DW. The rest seems to be a matter of emphasis - what different schools and different practitioners find helpful to highlight as part of their practice. 
So you have NOT explained how "vinnana nirodha" is equal to "cessation of the whole mass of suffering".

As for those who say Abhidhamma is not Buddha Dhamma, all I can say is that Tipitaka consists of "three Pitaka": Sutta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka.
- You cannot just choose what you like.
- What I explain is consistent with all three Pitaka.
Last edited by Lal on Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:09 am

Lal wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:05 am
As for those who say Abhidhamma is not Buddha Dhamma, all I can say is that Tipitaka consists of "three Pitaka": Sutta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Buddha Dhamma = Dhamma spoken by Buddha. Tiptaka =/= Buddha Dhamma

The Buddha taught sankhara in DO = kaya, vaci & citta sankhara. Please refer to SN 12.2 and MN 9.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:50 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:05 am
@Sam Vara: The following is what "you explained" on Dec 22, 2018 on p. 56:
No, they are not. The alternative explanation to yours is the one I have offered, derived from the above post where I provide sources as you requested. It is that "viññāṇa is a word with semantic range such that its meaning depends to some extent on the context where it is used". 

Sometimes, viññāṇa might - depending on context - mean "just consciousness", but the claim that it always means that is your claim, not mine. Nobody in the sources I cited is claiming that. It's what is known as a "straw man", and suggests that you are merely rehearsing arguments that you feel comfortable with, rather than dealing with the point that is actually being presented.
On Dec 22, 2018 on p. 57, you wrote:
 
Lots of commentators and scholars think it has the former, wider, meaning, and that is equally consistent with what it says in the Tipitaka.
On Dec 23, 2018 on p. 57, you wrote:
Yes, I think that virtually everyone familiar with Theravada would agree that viññāṇa is a key concept, and what the highest goal is. You can find these discussed in many introductory books, and here on DW. The rest seems to be a matter of emphasis - what different schools and different practitioners find helpful to highlight as part of their practice. 
So you have NOT explained how "vinnana nirodha" is equal to "cessation of the whole mass of suffering".
Yes, that's right! Not having addressed that topic, and not needing to, I haven't explained that.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:00 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Yes, that's right! Not having addressed that topic, and not needing to, I haven't explained that.
Is not the goal of Buddha Dhamma, "dukkha nirodha" or "end of all suffering"?
"Vinnana nirodha" is "dukkha nirodha", so there is a need to explain it, if you claim that you understand what the Buddha taught.

DooDoot wrote:
"Buddha Dhamma = Dhamma spoken by Buddha. Tiptaka =/= Buddha Dhamma"

Where did you get that definition from?

You first need to understand what is meant by Buddha: "bhava uddha" or "stopping future bhava" (and jati or births).
- A Buddha is someone who discovered the way to "stop future bhava" and thus to "stop future suffering".
- In the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, the Buddha clearly declared the ultimate goal: "akuppā me vimutti, ayam antimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo" or "I have attained the ultimate release (from all suffering); this is the last birth, no more births for me".

AND

Buddha Dhamma is the Dhamma that describes how to get to that goal.
- Tipitaka, with the three pitakas, comprise of all the teachings of the Buddha.

AND

Abhidhamma is "Dhamma described at a deeper level". The mind phenomena are described in great detail.
- For example, there are 54 types of citta that can arise in the kama loka; 15 types of citta in rupa loka, 12 in arupa loka, and 8 lokottara citta (associated with magga phala).
- If one really wants understand how deep Buddha Dhamma is, one needs to learn Abhidhamma.

When one realizes that one is in a hole, one should stop digging any deeper. Just stop commenting on things that you cannot explain. It is a waste of time for everyone involved.
- As I said, there are enough threads to express your opinions without facts from the Tipitaka. You have already stated many times that you disagree with what I write; that is fine. Let the others decide for themselves.
- I will not comment on this further, unless I see a logical argument presented.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:35 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:00 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Yes, that's right! Not having addressed that topic, and not needing to, I haven't explained that.
Is not the goal of Buddha Dhamma, "dukkha nirodha" or "end of all suffering"?
"Vinnana nirodha" is "dukkha nirodha", so there is a need to explain it, if you claim that you understand what the Buddha taught.
Sure. You'll note that I previously said that the term "vinnana" has a wide semantic range, encompassing but not restricted to the notion of "appetitive or defiled consciousness". Where the canon equates the cessation of consciousness with "dukkhanirodha", it is referring to consciousness in that sense.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:30 pm

Wherein one equates cessation of vinnana with the cessation of dukkha that is entirely due to the facts that Vinnana is a supporting condition for NamaRupa and is dependently arisen thus with cessation of Vinnana the cessation of namarupa is implied in it's entirety and therefore the cessation of Aggregates.

This is achieved by attainment of the Parinibbana wherein there is no more fuel for a future or attainment of any kind of Noble Right Concentration
The Great Forty Sutta;
The Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. Listen, and pay close attention. I will speak."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.
Thus this is the path attainment wherein at that time the factors are 8 and a person thus absorbed is not absorbed in dependence wind, fire, water or earth;
"He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:


'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
-AN 11 .10
And this is the unsurpassed discernment release of the Noble One's by which they proclaim;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support .[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
- Ud 8.1
which is not experienced thru the allness of the all;
"'Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.' MN 49
Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing
.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'" - DN 11
Such unsurpassed discernment release is the object of renunciation longing;
"And what are the six kinds of renunciation distress? The distress coming from the longing that arises in one who is filled with longing for the unexcelled liberations when — experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation — he sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change and he is filled with this longing: 'O when will I enter & remain in the dimension that the noble ones now enter & remain in?' This is called renunciation distress. - MN 137
that which, monks, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’ - SN 12.61
The use of the word Consciousness is well explained and in most general sense it is Form's counterpart as is evident from SN 12.61. The use of the word is for the most part limited by function to cognize and association with contact;
"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"
“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it consciousness? ‘It cognizes, ’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness. And what does it cognize? It cognizes sour, it cognizes bitter, it cognizes pungent, it cognizes sweet, it cognizes sharp, it cognizes mild, it cognizes salty, it cognizes bland. ‘It cognizes,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness. - SN 22.79
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."
-MN43
I advice you to stop this "Defiled Consciousness" extravaganza, It is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One.

It is true than an Arahant still has consciousness and that he does not have longing for namarupa but this only means that the ignorance element is removed it does not mean that "consciousness is purified". Consciousness is not something to be purified, absence of The Ignorance Element removes potential for certain states to arise because some formations have ignorance element as a requisite condition but even this hardly warrant the assertion that Consciousness is Purified and is certainly not what you mean.

The extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in an Arahant is called the Nibbana-element with residue left (Nibbanadhatu Sutta) not "Purified Consciousness" and Vinnanam Anidassana is a designation for that which is beyond the scope of the All as is explained in MN 49, namely;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support .[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Just stop.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:21 pm

These ideas of Defiled or Purified Consciousness are very wrong because they imply that it is the Same Consciousness that is being purified, thus you friends are conceiving of a non-existant Entity which persists thru time.

Much like Sati;
Now on that occasion a pernicious view had arisen in a bhikkhu named Sāti, son of a fisherman, thus: “As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.”

Several bhikkhus, having heard about this, went to the bhikkhu Sāti and asked him: “Friend Sāti, is it true that such a pernicious view has arisen in you?”

“Exactly so, friends. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.”

Then those bhikkhus, desiring to detach him from that pernicious view, pressed and questioned and cross-questioned him thus: “Friend Sāti, do not say so. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One; it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One would not speak thus. For in many ways the Blessed One has stated consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness.”

Yet although pressed and questioned and cross-questioned by those bhikkhus in this way, the bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, still obstinately adhered to that pernicious view and continued to insist upon it.
Whereas that which is called Consciousness in the training of the Noble One's does not persist thru time because it's nature is to change;
“But, indeed, that which, monks, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’, that, by night and by day, as other, indeed, arises, as other ceases. [6] Just as, monks, a monkey in the mountain-side forests, moving itself, [7] grasps a branch, then releasing that, grasps another, then releasing that, grasps another; even so, indeed, monks, that which is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’: that, by night and by day, as other, indeed, arises, as other ceases.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:19 pm

Although consciousness changes, you couldn't separate yourself from it,
you couldn't annihilate your consciousness. Why even try?

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:14 am

I have presented some background material on the "theory side" so far. In the next post I will start a series on the "actual practice".

Just learning "theory" is not enough to get the benefits of Buddha Dhamma. One needs to avoid dasa akusala, and engage in dāna (giving), sila (moral conduct), and bhāvanā (meditation/contemplation).
- So, I will start by discussing how one's mind starts becoming "unstressed" when one starts actually practicing Dhamma.

This is a good place to provide a summary of what I have discussed, especially within the past several months. This will be a reference that could be used by those who are interested.

Recommended Sequence of Posts on Fundamentals of Buddha Dhamma

In the following, I have tried to arrange my posts in a logical sequence starting from key aspects and key concepts.
- Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty) Tue Oct 23, 2018  (p.42); this explains why one needs to complete mundane eightfold path - before getting into the Noble Eightfold Path
- “Can or Should a Lay Follower Eliminate Sensual Desires?” published September 26, 2018 (p. 33).
- Wrong Views (Miccā Ditthi) – A Simpler Analysis Wed Oct 24, 2018 (p.43)
- Ten Types of Miccha Ditthi  Two posts on Nov 16, 2018 (p. 48)
- Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta  Oct 10, 2018 (P. 37) AND Oct 11, 2018 (p. 37) AND Oct 15, 2018 (p. 39)
- “Rebirth in Early Buddhism?”  Nov 17, 2018 (p. 49) AND Nov 18, 2018 (p. 49)
- Pathama Niraya Sagga Sutta (AN 10.210): Causes for Rebirth in Good and Bad Realms Nov 19, 2018 (p. 49) AND Tue Nov 20, 2018 (p. 50).
- How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm Wed Oct 31, 2018 (p.43)
- Gandhabba State – Evidence from Tipitaka Sun Oct 28, 2018 (p.43)
- Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception Nov 15, 2018 (p. 47)
- The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas) Thu Oct 25, 2018 (p.43)
- Post on habits (Pali word “gati”, but gati is more that habits) on August 18, 2018 (p. 22).
- How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View  Nov 28, 2018 (p. 50)
- Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein Sat Oct 27, 2018 (p. 43)
- Gati to Bhava to Jāti – Ours to Control Nov 15, 2018 (p. 47)
- Why is it Necessary to Learn Key Pali Words? Oct 08, 2018 (p. 36)
- Combination of Words (Sandhi) in Pali with Key Roots Nov 09, 2018 (p. 44)
- Translation of Tipitaka Pali Words to English Nov 12, 2018 (p. 45), Nov 13, 2018 (p.46), and Nov 14, 2018 (p.46)
- Dasa Kusala and Dasa Akusala – Fundamentals in Buddha Dhamma Nov 21, 2018 (p. 50)
- Dasa Kusala and Dasa Akusala – Fundamentals in Buddha Dhamma – Continued Nov 22, 2018 (p. 50)
- Part 1 (Nibbana): Three Kinds of Happiness Nov 23, 2018 (p.50).
- Part 2 (Nibbana): How Does Abstaining from Dasa Akusala Lead to Happiness?  Nov 24, 2018 (p. 50)
More posts on deeper aspects of Nibbana to follow.
- Kāmaccandha and Icca – Being Blinded by Cravings Nov 26, 2018 (p. 50)
- Kāmaccandha Is Not There in Brahma Realms – The Bigger Picture in the 31 Realms Nov 29, 2018 (p. 50).
- 31 Realms Associated with the Earth Nov 30, 2018 (p. 51).
- Types of Bodies in the 31 Realms and Manōmaya Kaya Dec 01, 2018 (p. 51).
- Anattā (Mundane Interpretation) - There is no "Unchanging Self"  Dec 03, 2018 (p. 51).
- Noble Truth of Suffering, and connection to Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta) discussed in several posts on  Dec 04, 2018,  Dec 05, Dec 6, and Dec 7 2018 (pp. 51, 52).
- Buddha Dhamma – A Sequential Approach Dec 06, 2018 AND Dec 07, 2018 (p. 52)
- Types of Bodies in 31 Realms - Connection to Jhāna Dec 08, 2018 (p. 52)
- Finest Manōmaya Kaya of an Arupavacara Brahma  Dec 10, 2018 (p. 52).
- Basic Principles of Buddha Dhamma - Introduction to Paticca Samuppāda Dec 12, 2018 (p. 52).
- Account of Anugulimāla - Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma Dec 16, 2018 (p. 53).
- Discussion on vinnana started on Dec 18, 2018 (p. 53)
- Paticca samuppada vibhanga Sutta (SN 12.2) Dec 19, 2018 (p. 54).
- Vinnana – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations Dec 21, 2018 (p. 55); discussion continued to Dec. 23, 2018 (to p. 57).
- Paticca Samuppāda and Viññāna Dec 23, 2018 (p. 57).
- Pali to English Translations – Problems With Current Translations   Dec 26, 2018 (p. 57).
- Connection Between Sankhāra and Viññāna Dec 29, 2018 (p. 57).
- Vinnana and Sankhara – Connection to Paticca Samuppada Jan 01, 2019 (P. 57).
- Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination Jan 05, 2019, p. 58.
- Sutta – The Need to Explain Deep Sutta Verses in Detail Jan 07, 2019, p. 58.
- Where in Suttas Say That Viññāna Is Defiled Consciousness? Jan 08, 2019, p. 59
- What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra) Jan 09, 2019 (p. 59); Jan 10, 2019 (p. 59) to p. 60.
- The Dangers in Just Focusing on Suttas – Tipitaka Has Two More Pitakas! Jan 11, 2019 (p. 60); discussion to p. 62.

 
Other Important Posts

- “Why Sanskrit texts should not be used to learn Buddha Dhamma” and that would be breaking Vinaya rules for bhikkhus on August 26, 2018 (p. 24).
- “Incorrect Thēravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline” August 25, 2018 (p. 23). Another post on the historical background before that on August 25, 2018 (p. 23).
- On the group of five (on the Five Ascetics attaining Sotapanna stage with Dhammacakkappavattana suatta) Text from the Vinaya Pitaka Oct 12, 2018 (p. 38)
- What Am I Trying to Achieve at This Forum? Oct 07, 2018 (p. 36)
- Post on why kasina and breath meditations are not in Buddha Dhamma (Tipitaka), but added on by Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga: August 23, 2018 (p. 23).
- “Problems with Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga” August 29, 2018 (p. 26), August 29, 2018 (p. 27), August 30, 2018 (p. 27).
- “Why I have high respect for Waharaka Thero” commented on September 23, 2018 (p. 33).
- Total fabrications about a Waharaka Thero’s desana explained September 22, 2018 (p. 33).
- Myths about the Sotapanna Stage Oct 08, 2018 (p. 36)
 
Key Pali Words and Concepts

- Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā  Nov 11, 2018 (p. 44)
- Difference between Phassa and Samphassa Nov 08, 2018 (p. 44)
- Vedana (Feelings) Tue Nov 06, 2018 (p. 44)
- Free Will in Buddhism – Connection to Sankhāra Sun Nov 04, 2018 (p.44)
- Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra Sat Nov 03, 2018 (p.43)
- Sankhāra – What It Really Means Thu Nov 01, 2018 (p. 43)
- Difference Between Rupa and Rupakkhandha  Mon Oct 22, 2018 (p. 42)
- Critical Role of Memories – Nāmagotta Oct 04, 2018 (p. 35)
- Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs : October 2, 2018 (p. 35)
- Parimukham- Establishing Mindfulness in Front? October 5, 2018 (p. 35)
- Nibbana meaning explained October 1, 2018 (p. 34)
- Nimitta explained September 28, 2018 (p. 33) and September 29, 2018 (p. 34)
- “Kamma vipaka cannot be conjectured about” commented on September 25, 2018 (p. 33).
- “Sankhāra – What It Really Means” published September 24, 2018 (p. 33).
- “Vinnana is not contact (phassa)” explained September 21, 2018 (p. 32).
- “Amazingly Fast Time Evolution of a Thought (Citta)” explained September 18, 2018 (p. 31).
- “Contamination of a citta in nine stages” explained September 19, 2018 (p. 31), September 21, 2018 (p. 32).
- “Saññā – What It Really Means” explained September 14, 2018 (p. 31).
- Jhanic states explained September 2, 2018 (p. 30), September 9, 2018 (p. 30), and September 12, 2018 (p. 31).
- Corrected one mistake I had done inadvertently on September 1, 2018 (p. 30).
- “Sabbe Dhamma anatta” explained in two posts on August 30, 2018 (p. 28).
- “Samādhi, Jhāna, Magga Phala – Introduction” explained August 27, 2018 (p. 25).
- “Two types of Samma Samadhi” explained in several posts on p. 25.
- “Two Types of Vinnana – We Have Control Over Kamma Vinnana” explained August 21, 2018 (p. 23).
- “Nine Stages of a Thought (Citta)” August 19, 2018 (p. 22).
- Clarification of vinnana on August 17, August 18, 2018 (p. 21).
- Paticca Samuppada explained on August 5, 2018 (p. 16) and clarified in in following posts.
- Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada) and on the fact that there are no rebuttals to my arguments” Jul 15, 2018 (p. 15).
- “The real nature of viññāna as cause for suffering is clearly stated in the “Dvaya­tānu­passa­nā­sutta (Sutta Nipata 3.12)“: Jun 30, 2018 (p. 12) AND Jul 02, 2018 (two posts on P. 13)
- “The above video posted by SarathW is supposed to discuss evidence that Ven. Abhayaratanalankara (Waharaka Thero) has distorted Buddha Dhamma.” Jun 28, 2018 (p. 10)
There are many posts before that, but I just don’t have time to go through them. Some are listed below.
- My first post on June 23, 2016 on p. #1. On the same day, I discussed the difference between bhava and jati.
- On p. #3, a discussion started on gandhabba on March 27, 2017.
A lengthy discussion on atta/anatta started on April 2, 2017, which goes on up to p. #9.
- On April 16, 2017, I referred to a post at puredhamma.net which provides a lengthy response to criticisms by bhikkhu Dhammanando and bhikkhu Pesala. That has been moved to here: [html]https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... -scholars/[/html]
- A discussion on Anapanasati started on May 29, 2017 by SarathW (page 8).
- On page 9, on May 19, 2018, I wrote on bhava, jati, and paticca samuppada (Dependent Origination).
- On Dec 23, 2018, hsandeepani posted a couple of videos in Sinhala language criticizing Waharaka Thero's interpretations by some Sri Lankan bhikkhus. I provided a point-by-point response on June 26, 2018 and June 28, 2018 (page 10).
- On June 28, 2018, a discussion on anidassana vinnana on p. 11, which goes on for few pages, also discussing what vinnana is.
- A discussion on Dependent Origination started on top of page 14. 
- On page 16, discussions on vinnana and "anidassana vinnana".
- A separate discussion on anidassana vinnana at: [html]viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5618&start=15[/html].

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:29 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:14 am
I have presented some background material on the "theory side" so far. In the next post I will start a series on the "actual practice".

Just learning "theory" is not enough to get the benefits of Buddha Dhamma. One needs to avoid dasa akusala, and engage in dāna (giving), sila (moral conduct), and bhāvanā (meditation/contemplation).
- So, I will start by discussing how one's mind starts becoming "unstressed" when one starts actually practicing Dhamma.

...
Friend, I did not want to continue to question your views since I see it is nearly impossible to change your view because you have a very strong clinging to your own views. However, I will try the last time and hope that you may see something...

It is better to recognize our mistakes and correct them than find out that we are wrong when it is too late...

You think an arahant must have pure consciousness because you have strong identity view. You think the arahant has/possesses that consciousness. You think without possessing that pure consciousness, the arahant cannot function. You cannot see that the consciousness is just that consciousness (pure or not pure), it arises and ceases. When one clings to it, one will suffer! The arahant is just "that", and he has nothing to do with that consciousness(pure or not pure) even if he is not apart from it.

That consciousness arises from its condition. Not because the arahant makes it to do so. In SN12.12, we can see that the question "who feels? who makes contact? who craves..." are invalid questions to one who already cut off identity view. There is no arahant who feels, who cognizes,...(or we can say there is no arahant who thinks I feel, I cognizes,...)

Even when the Buddha was alive and sat right there and function normally, we still cannot find him anywhere right at that time since he is not that body, that feeling, that perception, that formation, that consciousness, and he is also not apart from that five aggregates. Where can we find and identify him?

The untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma conceives himself as the cognized, conceives himself in the cognized, conceives the cognized to be ‘mine’, delights in the cognized...(paraphrase MN1)
"“He perceives the cognized as the cognized. Having perceived the cognized as the cognized, he conceives himself as the cognized, he conceives himself in the cognized, he conceives himself apart from the cognized, he conceives the cognized to be ‘mine,’ he delights in the cognized. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say." MN1


If you think the cognized here is the defiled consciousness, not the pure consciousness then it will fall into "he conceives himself apart from the cognized".

However, instead of deeping too much into theories, views, interpretations and argue to the rest of our lives and get lost in views... it is better to look into our own behaviors. The Dhamma is simply a tool for us to guide and change ourselves. It is simply a tool. We use it to end our own sufferings. If the Dhamma that we possessed increases our own sufferings then we either have wrong Dhamma, or we grasp/apply it incorrectly.

Simply look at these recent posts, do you see that since you have defended your "pure Dhamma", your sufferings is increasing or decreasing? Do you see your agitation is increasing or decreasing? Do you see your wrong/harsh speech is increasing or decreasing? Do you see your arrogance is increasing or decreasing? If they are increasing then you either has wrong Dhamma or grasp/apply it incorrectly.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:48 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:59 am
Lal wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:50 am
What is sad is that Dhammanando does not know what is meant by vinnana, sankhara, sanna, etc etc. If he does...
Make up your mind mister. If you are not sure then you should not be badmouthing a Bhikkhu.

You are the one without a shred of understanding of what it is your are arguing against whilst trying to promote these "hidden treasures" of interpretations [...]
Venerable Sujāto wrote a wonderful essay that directly addresses this phenomenon of claimed "hidden [Pāli] treasures" of semantics in Theravāda:
Ven Sujāto on SuttaCentral, October 2018 wrote: On the Paṭisambhidās: why Theravadins get so mixed up about words

In recent times, there have been a number of discussions, here and elsewhere, on various weird conspiracy-style theories that have emerged among monks regarding highly eccentric, bordering on crazy, theories. They might be systematic re-assigning of meanings of words—which assumes that the people who used a language had no idea what it meant—or a wholesale reinvention of history—the Buddha was born in Sri Lanka, for example. Most of the ones we've heard of have come from Sri Lanka, but I'm not sure if that means it's a feature of Sri Lankan Buddhism, or simply that we haven't heard so much from other countries.

Most people have no idea what the background of these ideas is, and how they came to prevail in modern Theravada. It's nothing new; see, for example, Richard Gombrich's book on Buddhism in Sri Lanka in the 80s, which describes a number of similar cases. I'm hoping that this little article will demystify it all and help people to avoid falling into these traps.

The theoretical root of these theories is the peculiar Theravadin conception of a set of dhammas known as the paṭisambhidās. The idea, as it manifests in modern Theravada, is essentially that a certain level of realization enables one to access truths directly from the Dhamma, not in terms of letting go suffering, but as specific textual details and facts. You're getting live streams of history and textual knowledge right from the Nibbana element.

Lest there be any confusion: all this is delusional, and has nothing to do with Dhamma. Realizing Dhamma means that you let go of suffering and its causes; it tells you nothing about Pali.

How did such a crazy idea get a foothold? Here's a brief background.

The patisambhidhas are mentioned a few times in the Anguttara. Unusually, they do not appear anywhere else in the EBTs. They are a set of qualities that are essential for someone who wishes to teach Dhamma:

1. dhamma = text, teaching
2. attha = meaning, interpretation
3. nirutti = terminology, language
4. paṭibhāna = inspiration, eloquence, improvisation

They refer to knowing the text of the teaching, understanding its meaning, having the linguistic knowledge to analyze and express it, and the capacity to marshal all the above in giving a spontaneous Dhamma talk.

And that's about it. Those of great wisdom, such as the Buddha or Sāriputta, are said to attain mastery in these qualities, hence their unparalleled ability to give clear and detailed teachings.

This set of Dhammas is pretty obscure in the broader scheme of things. They are almost ignored in the northern schools, and where they do appear, the root of the term is different (pratisamvid). It is not clear why either root bhid (= break) or vid (= know) is used, or which is to be preferred. It may be that both are derived from an unknowable earlier dialect.

Despite these humble beginnings—or more likely, because of them—in the Theravada, the patisambhidas came to assume a critical importance. If you look at the Dipavamsa's account of the first schism (between the Theravada and the Mahasanghika) the chief complaint about the Mahasanghikas was their sloppiness in textual redaction. They mixed up the nouns and verbs, everything was unclear, they rejected some texts and added others. All this is, to be fair, an accurate depiction of the Mahasanghika texts, at least from a Pali perspective. The result of this was that the Theravada—specifically, the Mahavihara in Anuradhapura, rather than the broader Sthaviras of the mainland—defined itself as the school of textual precision.

This is great, because it means we inherit the very well edited and consistent texts of the Pali canon. But when it's held too tightly it also can lead to rather fundamentalist attitude towards textuality.

This found its earliest expression in the book the Patisambhidamagga. One of the latest additions to the Pali canon, this elevated the obscure group of qualities needed by Dhamma teacher, and made it the underlying framework of the path to Nibbana.

It continued in the commentaries, where we find the idea that Pali is the sabhāvanirutti, the "essentially existing language". Note that nirutti is one of the patisambhidas. The idea here is that Pali exists inherently as part of the fabric of the universe, not just a set of conventions for communicating. If a child were to be brought up without anyone speaking, it would naturally speak Pali; as do, of course, the devas. Again, just to be clear: this is nonsense, and directly contradicts everything the Buddha said about language.

This all might have been just a footnote in history, a record of how sometimes people get a little too enthusiastic about their sacred texts. But the tradition is alive and well. And like all traditions, it is not a fixed thing that stamps out followers from a template. It is a living thing that is engaged and interrogated by those who live it. And when people engage it foolishly, driven by ego and ignorance, they draw from it foolish things. This is not the fault of the tradition, but of its interpreters.

So this is how some people will claim to have access to some special form of knowledge, a way of reading the Dhamma from the universe, via visions or insights in meditation or whatever. Rather than seeing such things as impermanent, as empty, and as unreliable, they take them as a crucial insight into the nature of reality.

Usually such claims are fed by a high level of narcissism. The thing about narcissism, it gives you confidence and charisma, and it's really easy for people—even intelligent and critically-minded people—to be fooled; at least for a time. The teacher lays claim to a counter-narrative that taps into a more broadly based disillusionment or cynicism. "See," they say, "how there's so much corruption and decadence? Here is the reason why!"

Their ideas are simple and obvious, avoiding the hard work that goes into genuine understanding. With minimal commitment, people can get the rush of being part of an inner circle who really gets it. Like a climate change denialist who convinces themselves that their silly notions have somehow never been understood by the climate scientists who have devoted years of their life to actually understanding the topic, such people easily imagine they know better than all the Pali and Sanskrit scholars, dismissing the 2500 year old legacy of linguistic sciences of India.

This is not just an intellectual thing, it comes with a sense of emotional uplift and fervor that can frequently result in heightened meditation or other experiences. Such experiences, being based on delusion, don't lead anywhere in the long term, but they do give an emotional high that, for the convert, confirms the truth of what they've been told. In this way the narcissistic delusions spread, infecting not just the teacher, but their disciples as well, creating wider conflicts in families and communities.

We can't understand these delusionalities without reference to the wider descent into paranoia, conspiracy-mongering, and anti-truth that we see all around us. It is a peculiarly Theravadin expression of a much wider phenomenon. And one of the things that is common to all these forms of denialism or delusionism is that they obsess about trivial nonsense and have nothing to say about things that matter. The creationists argue senselessly that creation happened 4000 years ago, making zero contributions to actually understanding life and its origins. The climate change denialists endlessly regurgitate the same discredited lies, while contributing precisely nothing to an actual understanding of climate.

Meanwhile, there are issues of incredible importance that face Buddhist communities. To pick just one, global warming will have a devastating impact on South-East Asia, and Theravadin countries in particular. Colombo, Bangkok, Yangon: all are as good as gone. Myanmar is [number two in the world for climate vulnerability](https://www.mmtimes.com/national-news/1 ... -risk.html). What are we doing to help our people, to warn them and prepare them? We do nothing, and meanwhile we waste our time with nonsense about where the Buddha was born, or rewriting the dictionary based on sheer imagination. There's no wisdom there, no meaning, nothing worth listening to.

And this is what the first lines of the Mangala Sutta are all about.
Asevanā ca bālānaṃ,
Not associating with fools,
paṇḍitānañca sevanā
but associating with the astute,
Pūjā ca pūjaneyyānaṃ,
paying respect to those who deserve it:
etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ.
this is the highest blessing.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:50 pm

Venerable Sujāto wrote a wonderful essay...
What is in that essay is not relevant to what I have discussed at this forum.
We need to discuss things of real substance: Key concepts in Buddha Dhamma.

He or someone at Sutta Central has translated a key sutta very badly:

Quoting from the Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1)[html]https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/sn12.1[/html]:
"Avijjāya tveva asesa­virāga­nirodhā saṅ­khā­ra­nirodho; saṅ­khā­ra­nirodhā viññāṇanirodho; viññāṇanirodhā nāmarūpa­nirodho; nāmarūpa­nirodhā saḷāya­tana­nirodho; saḷāya­tana­nirodhā phassanirodho; phassanirodhā vedanānirodho; vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho; taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho; upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho; bhavanirodhā jātinirodho; jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ soka­pari­deva­duk­kha­do­manas­supāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa duk­khak­khan­dhassa nirodho hotīti.

The following is the English translations at Sutta Central: Dependent Origination: [html]https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn12.1[/html]
"“But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

There is something VERY WRONG with this translation. One's consciousness DOES NOT cease when attaining the Arahanthood (ONE DOES NOT BECOME UNCONSCIOUS).

He can do one of two things:
1. Explain why that is not a bad translation. He needs to explain how "duk­khak­khan­dhassa nirodho hotī or cessation of this whole mass of suffering" results from "viññāṇanirodho or cessation of consciousness". Those are the exact words appearing at Sutta Central.
2. Make a correction to the translation.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:53 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:50 pm
Venerable Sujāto wrote a wonderful essay...
What is in that essay is not relevant to what I have discussed at this forum.
That essay is about you and the Venerable you follow. It's about what you both do to the Pāli language. I think it is highly relevant, especially in this particular thread.
Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:50 pm
He or someone at Sutta Central has translated a key sutta very badly
It's Venerable Bodhi's translation, take it up with him.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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