The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:25 pm

Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination

Introduction

1. The First Noble Truth is about the suffering that can be eliminated from arising.

- The second describes how suffering arises, due to our own cravings (which we manifest via our own sankhāra that we generate willingly, as we have discussed; see the previous two posts). This is important to understand.
- The Third Noble Truth says that future suffering can be stopped by eliminating those cravings. That REQUIRES and understanding of the wider world view of the Buddha with the rebirth process within the 31 realms.
- The Forth Noble Truth is the way to acquire that understanding by "learning and living" that Dhammā (by following the Noble Eightfold Path).

2. The Buddha said, “My Dhammā has not been known in this world. This Dhammā has never been heard of previously”.

- What is new about knowing that there is suffering around us? Everybody knows that there is suffering with old age, diseases, poverty, etc. One does not have to be a Buddhist to see that.
- So, we need to figure out "what is new" about suffering that is explained in the First Noble Truth.

The First Noble Truth - What is Suffering

3. I have discussed the First Noble Truth on October 15, 2018 (p.51): [html]viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=570[/html]. Here is a summary:

"Birth is suffering, getting old is suffering, getting sick is suffering, dying is suffering. Having to associate with things that one does not like is suffering and having to separate from those things one likes is suffering. If one does not get what one likes (iccha), that is suffering - Doing worldly activities (samkittena) to get all those things one craves for (pancupadanakkhandha) is suffering.

- There is a deeper meaning in the part, "If one does not get what one likes (iccha), that is suffering ", that is connected to the anicca nature.
- That deeper meaning is expressed in terms of tanhā (craving) is expressed in the final part, "Doing worldly activities (samkittena) to get all those things one craves for (pancupadanakkhandha) is suffering."

4. Just as in science, something comes about due to causes. Our present life as a human has come about due to causes (kamma) done in the past. Some of those were "good kamma" and that is why we can enjoy some pleasures. Bad kamma have led to instances of suffering.

- But there are lower realms, including the animal realm, where suffering is much higher. Bad kamma lead to such births.
- Suffering in the four lowest realms is the real suffering. That is what we first need to focus on.
- And all that suffering arises because we crave for things in this world because of our avijjā (not comprehending the Four Noble Truths).

5. Seeing this hidden suffering is indeed difficult. When the Buddha attained the Buddhahood, it is said that he was worried whether he could convey this deep ideas to most people.

- We seek pleasures that are highly visible. But if we gain such pleasures with immoral acts, the consequences of such immoral acts are not apparent. We can see a stone thrown up coming down, but we cannot see any bad consequences to the drug dealer who seems to be enjoying life.

The Second Noble Truth - Causes for Future Suffering

6. the cause of future suffering is indicated in the First Noble Truth: It is the craving for sense pleasures. The worst outcomes (rebirths in the apāyās) will result if we do immoral things to get such sense pleasures.

- For example, person X may kill another person to get his money or to marry his wife. Even though X may accomplish that goal and "enjoy life" for even 100 years, that is nothing compared to millions of years of future suffering X will go through due to his immoral action.

7. When a fish bites the bait, it does not see the suffering hidden in that action. Looking from the ground we can see the whole picture and we know what is going to happen to the fish if it bites the bait. But the fish is unable to see that whole picture, and thus does not see the hidden suffering. It only sees a delicious bit of food.

- In the same way, if we do not know about the wider world of 31 realms (with the suffering-filled four lowest realms), we only focus on what is easily accessible to our six senses.
- In order to really comprehend suffering through repeated rebirths, one needs to comprehend that most suffering is encountered in the 4 lowest realms (apāyās); see, “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma“ at puredhamma.net.
- Thus, stopping suffering requires one to to be mindful of one's actions and stop doing bad vaci and kaya sankhāra (i.e., immoral thinking, speech, and deeds).

8. Therefore, the “never heard truth about suffering” that the Buddha revealed is the suffering that is hidden in sense pleasures. 

- That is because we do not see the bad consequences, especially of doing immoral things to get them.
- We believe that those sense pleasures are to be valued and to be enjoyed. For example, while sexual acts take a small amount of time, one could be "day dreaming" about them for hours.
- However, it is not easy to grasp this point. One needs to advance step-by-step; see "Can or Should a Lay Follower Eliminate Sensual Desires?" on Sep 26, 2018 (p. 33): [html]viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=480[/html]
- The first step to reduce suffering in the future is to avoid doing bad deeds (kamma) via thoughts, speech, and bodily actions (again, these are associated with manō, vaci, and kaya sankhāra).
- Therefore, we create our own future happiness via punna abhisankhāra (good sankhāra) or future suffering via apunna abhisankhāra (good sankhāra).

The Third Noble Truth - How to Stop Future Suffering

9. As we discussed above, such suffering can arise in this life due to our own (apunnābhi) sankhāra (which we generate in order to satisfy our cravings).

- In the same way, ALL FUTURE SUFFERING can also be stopped by controlling our own sankhāra.
- We attach to things with greed and hate via sankhāra, because of our ignorance of the Four Noble Truths (avijjā). As we have discussed, this is the first step in Paticca Samuppada leading to "the whole mass of suffering": "avijjā paccayā sankhāra".
- See the post: "Viññāna and Sankhāra – Connection to Paticca Samuppāda", on Jan 01, 2019 (p. 57): [html]viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=840[/html]

10. The Third Noble Truth is about what can be achieved by systematically removing those causes.

 - Nirāmisa sukha increases from the point of embarking on the Path, and has four levels of PERMANENT increases starting at the Sōtapanna stage and culminating at the Arahant stage; there are several posts starting with, “Three Kinds of Happiness – What is Nirāmisa Sukha?“ at puredhamma.net.

11. In order to stop the arising of "bad sankhāra" we need to do two things: (1) remove avijjā by learning true Dhamma, and (2) making use of our free will to get control of our sankhāra (this is the basis of Ānāpāna/Satipatthāna).

- A systematic way to achieve this is stated in the Fourth Noble Truth.

The Fourth Noble Truth - The Way to Stop Future Suffering

12. The second Noble Truth is describes those CAUSES that we need to work on. The root causes are greed, hate, and ignorance, but they need to be removed mainly via understanding the Three Characteristics (Tilakkhana) and also via removing our bad sansāric habits; see a series of posts starting with, “Habits, Goals, Character (Gathi)” to “The Way to Nibbāna – Removal of Āsavas“, at puredhamma.net.

- The way to achieve this is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path: Sammā Ditthi (understanding what is embedded in the Four Noble Truths), and then thinking (sankappa), speaking (vācā) , acting (kammanta), living one's whole life that way (ājiva), striving harder (vāyāma), getting to the right mindset (sati), and finally to samādhi.

13. When we follow the Noble Eightfold Path, nirāmisa sukha arises first and then various stages of Nibbāna.

- Nirāmisa sukha starts when one lives a moral life (see, “Dasa Kusala and Dasa Akusala – Fundamentals in Buddha Dhamma" on Nov 21, 2018 AND Dasa Kusala and Dasa Akusala – Fundamentals in Buddha Dhamma - Continued", on Nov 22, 2018 (p. 50): [html]viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=735[/html]
- The root causes of immoral behavior are greed, hate, and ignorance.  Ignorance can be reduced to the extent of attaining the Sōtapanna stage just via comprehending the Three Characteristics of “this world of 31 realms”, i.e., anicca, dukkha, anatta; see, “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – Wrong Interpretations“, and the follow-up posts at puredhamma.net. It is that powerful.

Why Is It Hard to See the “Hidden Suffering”? – Time Lag

14. The main problem in clearly seeing the “cause and effect of mind actions” is that the results of those actions have a time delay and that time delay itself is not predictable.

- In contrast, it is easy to predict what is going to happen with material things (moving an object, a vehicle, a rocket, etc). The success of physical sciences is due to this reason. Once the underlying laws are found (laws of gravity, laws of motion, electromagnetism, nuclear forces, quantum mechanics, etc), one has complete control.

15. But the mind is very different.  To begin with, no two minds work the same way. Under a given set of conditions, each mind will chose to act differently. With physical objects, that is not so; under a given set of conditions, what will happen can be predicted accurately.

- Effects of some actions (kamma) may not materialize in this life and sometimes it may come to fruition only in many lives down the road (but with accumulated interest).
- Even in this life, mind phenomena are complex: This is why economics is not a “real science”. It involves how people act sometimes “irrationally” for perceived gains. No economic theory can precisely predict how a given stock market will perform.

16. This “cause and effect” that involves the mind is the principle of kamma and kamma vipāka in Buddha Dhamma.

- But unlike in Hinduism, Kamma is not deterministic, i.e., not all kamma vipāka have to come to fruition; see, “What is Kamma? Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.
- Suitable CONDITIONS must be there to bring good or bad kamma vipāka to fruition. That is why kamma is not deterministic and we can stop ALL future suffering.
- We just need to get rid of avijjā and tanhā, two key steps in Paticca Samuppada. That is how Angulimāla overcame all that bad kamma of killing almost 1000 people; see the post, "Account of Angulimāla - Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma", on Dec 16, 2018 (p. 53): viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=780

Only a Part of Suffering in This Life Can Be Eliminated

Finally, we can look into what can of suffering can be stopped from arising in this itself, so that we can gain confidence in Buddha Dhamma. One does not need to blindly believe and follow Buddha's teachings.

17. There are two types of vēdanā (feelings); see, the post on Nov 06, 2018 (p. 44): viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=645

- First is due to kamma vipāka. 
- The second is mental suffering due to sankhāra (via attachment to sensual pleasures and friction (patigha) due to things we don't like). This could lead to depression.

18. This life is the RESULT of past kamma. Once a life starts, it cannot be stopped until "its kammic energy" is exhausted. This life WILL end up in old age, decay, and eventual death.

- Therefore, if someone has aches and pains due to old age, it is not possible to get rid of them other than to use medications or therapy to lessen the pain and manage it.
- Even the Buddha had back pain due to old age, and had a severe stomach ache at the end.
One may get injured, come down with a disease, etc.
- All these are due to kamma vipāka.

19. On the other hand, it is possible to stop the second type ("mental suffering") that arises due to our own way of thinking (again, our own vaci sankhāra).

- Therefore, we can EXPERIENCE the relief from suffering (called nirāmisa sukha) in this life itself.
- The suffering (or vēdanā) that a living Arahant has eliminated is called "samphassa ja vēdanā". This is what leads to depression in some people.
- I will discuss this after I discuss "san", because "samphassa" is "san" + "phassa", or "contact with one's own defilements (san)".

Humans Have Free Will to Eliminate Future Suffering

20. The life we have as a human is a RESULT of a past good deed. The life of a dog or an ant is the result of a past deed by that sentient being.

- And what happens to us in this life is a COMBINATION of what we have done in the past (kamma vipāka) AND what we do in this life.
- What happens to an animal is MOSTLY due to kamma vipāka from the past.
- The difference between a human and an animal is that the animal does not have much control over what is going to happen to it. But human birth is a special one: We have a higher level mind that CAN change the future to some extent, and with possible enormous consequences.
- We have free will and animals do not. We can control our sankhāra, and they cannot.

auto
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:05 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/sujato
Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ—jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhaṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ—saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.

Now this is the noble truth of suffering. Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; illness is suffering; death is suffering; association with the disliked is suffering; separation from the liked is suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.
clinging aggregates are suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
craving for form happen independently, if you get caught up there you are then being, satta.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the form clinging-aggregate.
aggregate is clinging aggregate if there is something clingable, offers sustenance.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object),[1] landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.
1st noble truth is from a point of when you are already caught up(satta) with the clinging aggregates.
So i guess the 'landing on form' is birth, jati

and then vinnanam anidassam is,
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn ... .than.html
Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
consciousness unattached(sn22.53) is same as consciousness without feature(dn11) and 3rd noble truth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within.
consciousness won't land on the dhatus if support is cut of.

Support is that bridge,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.
It is gross reality example how support is needed for consciousness to land on properties/dhatus.

nibbana is not relying on these supports. Body is a support for a bodiless to cultivate and gain liberation from body.
"This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.
-
what do you think about it? is vinnanam anidassam 3rd noble truth?

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:29 pm

auto said:
clinging aggregates are suffering.
Please explain in your own words (without quoting others), how clinging to aggregates is (or leads to) suffering.

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:41 am

auto's post (the first question) was based on this verse from SN 56.11:
Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ—jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhaṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ—saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.

Now this is the noble truth of suffering. Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; illness is suffering; death is suffering; association with the disliked is suffering; separation from the liked is suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.
This is the verse that I explained in starting from #3 in the previous post: "Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination", posted on January 5, 2019. Of course, that was a brief introduction. One really needs to understand the five aggregates (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) in order to fully understand the part: "saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā". That is why I have been discussing these within the past few months.

This is why I say that some people are just quoting from sutta translations that do not really provide the meanings of the verses. Word-by-word direct translations are of no use for interpreting deep suttas. Neither the audience nor the translators themselves understand what they really mean.

Here is a post from puredhamma.net that explains why some suttas need to explained in detail (called patiniddesa):

Sutta – The Need to Explain Deep Sutta Verses in Detail

1. Buddha dhamma is structured to be presented via a method called, “uddesa, niddesa, patiniddesa. A fundamental concept is first stated (“uddesa” or “utterance”); then it is described in a summarized way (“niddesa” or “brief explanation”), and then it is described in detail (“patiniddesa” means explaining in detail with examples to clarify difficult or “knotty” points).

- For example, “ye dhammā hetuppabbavā..” is uddesa, where the fundamental characteristics of “this world” are just stated, i.e., everything in this world arises due to causes.
- In the niddesa version, paticca samuppada is “avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana,.……..” (all 11 steps): How causes lead to effects is stated succinctly.
- In contrast, in a discourse, it is the patiniddesa version of explanation: detailed explanation with examples.

2. Most suttas are in uddesa or niddesa version (Digha Nikaya is an exception, even though some verses do have deeper meanings). They need to be explained in detail. Translating word-by-word is not appropriate in many instances.

- For example, “anicca, dukkha, anatta” is discussed only in the niddesa version in Dhamma cakka pavattana sutta and Anatta lakkhana sutta.
- However, each sutta took many hours to deliver, and it was not possible to condense all that information in a sutta for mostly oral transmission that was available at the time. Each sutta was made into a condensed form most likely by the Buddha himself; see below.
- Thus the material in each sutta as written in the Tipitaka is CONDENSED in most cases, i.e., in the “niddesa” version. They are also composed for easy oral transmission.

3. During the time of the Buddha, other bhikkhus then described in detail each sutta to audiences when they delivered discourses. This is the “patiniddesa” version. Especially after the Parinibbana of the Buddha, many Arahants started writing “attakatha” or commentaries on important suttas, but a few were written during the time of the Buddha.

- Three of original books with such early commentaries have been preserved in the Tipitaka: Patisambidha Magga Prakarana, Nettipparakana, and Petakopadesa. Of these, the Patisambidha Magga Prakarana consists of the analyses by Ven. Sariputta, one of the chief disciples of the Buddha, and the Nettipparakana by Ven. Maha Kaccayana. Thus we are lucky to have these three original commentaries still with us.
- These three books contain the “patiniddesa” versions of many of the important suttas, which describe in detail the key words/phrases in a given sutta. All other such great commentaries have been lost; see, “Incorrect Thēravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline” and “Buddhaghōsa and Visuddhimagga – Historical Background“.

4. In this section, I will be discussing the suttas in the patiniddesa mode, providing explanations of the deeper meanings of phrases that have been condensed for easy oral transmission.

- During the time of the Buddha there were some who could comprehend just the uddesa version, for example, Upatissa and Kolita (who became Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Moggalana later) became Sotapannas just upon hearing the verse, “ye Dhamma hetuppabbava..…”. They had done much in their past lives and needed “just a little push” to get there. They are called uggatitanna or “persons with high wisdom”.
- And there were many who could understand the niddesa version. Those were called vipatitanna and they needed a bit more explanation to grasp the concepts.
- However, these days, most people are in the lower category of neyya. They need detailed explanations (i.e., patiniddesa) to grasp a concept. And they also belong to two categories: those with tihetuka patisandhi (optimum births) can attain magga phala in this life, whereas those with dvihetuka patisandhi (inferior births) cannot attain magga phala, but they can accrue merits to attain magga phala in future lives. Of course there is no way for anyone to figure out (except for a Buddha) whether one has a tihetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi.
- It is important to realize that those who are either uggatitanna or vipatitanna had been neyyas with dvihetuka patisandhi in previous lives, and had strived to gain more wisdom in this life. Thus there is no point worrying about whether one a tihetuka or dvihetuka.

5. By the way, there are many erroneous commentaries that are available today, and the best example is the Visuddhimagga of Buddhaghosa. It was written at a time (around 400 CE; where CE is “Current Era” or AD) when the “pure Dhamma” was already lost and the conventional meanings were common place, just as now.

- Actually, we have had a long period from about 200 CE up to now that the “pure Dhamma” had been lost; see, “Incorrect Thēravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline“. But the original suttas survived because people at least used and preserved them even if they used the “conventional” (“padaparama” in Pali) meanings.
- Thus we can see why people have been translating suttas “word for word” and just getting the conventional meanings. They are NOT supposed to be TRANSLATED; they are supposed to be DESCRIBED in detail by bringing out the deep meanings of some of the words/phrases in the suttas.

6. From time to time jati Sotapannas are born; they had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life, possibly during the time Buddha was alive, and have had births in the deva loka for long times and are reborn human. Some of them have the special capability to interpret the key words/phrases in the suttas. This special knowledge is called “patisambidha nana”.

- There has been at least one time previously that the real meanings were brought out by a Thero with the patisambidha nana, but this is not the time to discuss that.
- However, we have a few Theros at this time who have this ability. I will leave it upto others to decide for themselves whether this is true or not. I have experienced the benefits of these clarifications, and I just want to make them available for anyone who could benefit.

7. Here is my personal belief of what happened: The Buddha knew that Buddha Dhamma will be going through periods of decline where bhikkhus capable of interpreting the suttas will not be present. Thus the suttas were composed in a way that only the “conventional” meaning is apparent. And that was a necessary step to preserve the suttas, especially before writing became common place.

- It is important to remember that Ven. Ananda had memorized all the suttas which he then recited at the First Buddhist Council, just 3 months after the Parinibbana of the Buddha.
- Ven. Ananda was Buddha’s personal assistant over the last few decades of the Buddha’s life. I believe that the Buddha condensed each sutta and Ven. Ananda memorized each of them. The Buddha synthesized each sutta in a “double meaning” way in order for them to survive the “dark periods”.
- All that was done at the first Buddhist Council was to recite all the suttas and to put them into various categories (nikayas). This is my theory and I believe that it will be proven to be true in the future.

8. And during the times when bhikkhus with the patisambidha nana are not born for long times, it is those conventional interpretations that are adopted by people. And that serves the purpose of keeping the suttas intact, especially before the written form was not common.

- A very good example is the Anapanasati sutta (some of which are also part of the Satipatthana sutta). As we discussed in “What is Anapana?”, the conventional meaning is to tie up “ana” with breath inhaling and “pana” with breath exhaling and that was consistent with the breath meditation that is there in the world at any time (it was practiced by yogis at the time of the Buddha, and he actually learned those methods from such yogis before attaining the Buddhahood).
- Another phrase is “majjhima patipada” in the Dhamma cakka pavattana sutta. It is easy to interpret it as “middle path” since the sutta describes the two extremes of kamasukallikanu yoga and the attakilamatanu yoga. It is true that “majjhima” means middle and it makes sense. However, there is a deeper meaning too.
- “Majjhi” is getting intoxicated (with not only alcohol/drugs, but also with power, beauty, wealth, etc) and “ma” is to remove that tendency. Thus “majjhima patipada” is to stay away from the extremes and to maintain a purified mind.

9. Regardless of the validity of my claims about the Buddha purposely synthesizing the suttas with “double meanings”, the following are the key points from the above discussion that I wish to emphasize:

- The suttas seem to be designed to convey “conventional” meanings while keeping the “deep meanings” embedded in them.
It is those “deep meanings” that bring out the uniqueness of Buddha Dhamma.
- Word to word translations of the suttas (with incorrect interpretations of key Pali words (like anicca and majjima) do not convey the message of the Buddha.
- The surviving three original commentaries in the Tipitaka can verify the deep meanings of the key words/phrases.

10. I will first discuss the foundation of the Satipatthana sutta in a “bottom-up” approach, starting with the goal of the sutta in mind and developing the related concepts. I have discussed many of the concepts in other posts, so it will be a matter of tying them up together.

- I thought that would be a refreshing approach than to start with the Pali version of the sutta and try to discuss each line.
But at the end I will show how the lines in the sutta tally with this description. As the Buddha emphasized, what matters is to get the IDEA across, and NOT to memorize the Pali suttas (other than for transmission purposes).

11. There are some benefits in reciting suttas, and that effect is much more amplified if one recites them with understanding and also in an appropriate tune without too much “dragging” (there are some recordings in the "Buddhist Chanting" section).
Last edited by Lal on Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:19 pm

auto asked a yes or no question...
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:05 pm
what do you think about it? is vinnanam anidassam 3rd noble truth?
and Lal talks about everything from Buddhagosa to Buddhist councils and chanting without answering xD

Same thing he did on page 10-12 on this exact issue of his wrong and irrational view of explaining vinnanam anidassanam as the consciousness of an arahant

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:31 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:19 pm
auto asked a yes or no question...
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:05 pm
what do you think about it? is vinnanam anidassam 3rd noble truth?
and Lal talks about everything from Buddhagosa to Buddhist councils and chanting without answering xD

Same thing he did on page 10-12 on this exact issue of his wrong and irrational view of explaining vinnanam anidassanam as the consciousness of an arahant
The answer is NO.
How can "vinnanam anidassam 3rd noble truth?"
What do the two of you believe? Yes or No?

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:34 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:29 pm
auto said:
clinging aggregates are suffering.
Please explain in your own words (without quoting others), how clinging to aggregates is (or leads to) suffering.
Clinging aggregate affect your heart and cause phantom realm to arise if you have cling to that realm enough there will be contact happen and consciousness descend, consciousness takes birth in that realm. So now your senses are endowed with 5 strings of sensuality, you know what pleases you and what not.

When you see rope then mental image of snake and what it does arises from heart, it causes jumpscare, a reaction originated from belly. That is primal form.
Clinging aggregate blocks that reaction and sends consciousness down isntead, for you to experience the scenario from a different perspective.

If you liberate the mind. You have empathy, it allows you to experience the situation from the other side, you can put yourself to other person shoes. It allows you to see different perceptions.

Clinging aggregate realm belongs to 2nd khandha. Realm where mind is unattached, without features belongs to 3rd khandha.
---
clinging aggregate is suffering because it requires birth, you need go thorugh the situation being under the whim of something else.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:39 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:31 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:19 pm
auto asked a yes or no question...
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:05 pm
what do you think about it? is vinnanam anidassam 3rd noble truth?
and Lal talks about everything from Buddhagosa to Buddhist councils and chanting without answering xD

Same thing he did on page 10-12 on this exact issue of his wrong and irrational view of explaining vinnanam anidassanam as the consciousness of an arahant
The answer is NO.
How can "vinnanam anidassam 3rd noble truth?"
What do the two of you believe? Yes or No?
if one takes vinnanam therein to be a verbal derivative that can be taken as a noun ('that which must be cognized') or an adjective ('to be cognized', 'must be cognized'). If we take it as a noun reading the verse as;
"the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating."

Then the answer is No because the 3rd truth is the truth of cessation of suffering and

"the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating" is not suffering

but if "the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating." was not a reality to be directly known by means of the attainment of cessation of suffering then there would be no escape from Suffering . Suffering here is to be understood as all conditioned phenomena sankhara-dukkata and implies non-arising of namarupa.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
Therefore it is directly related to the 3rd Truth, if there was no Vinnanam Anidassanam which is not experienced thru the allness of the all then the 3rd Noble Truth would not be true at all and would be impossible!
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:45 pm

depends on what translation one goes with;
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

This is so pathetic. Do you understand what is meant by vinnana? If you do, you should be explain it in your own words without referring to "authorities".

If the "authority X" says one thing and "authority Y" says another, you don't know which one is right, or whether both are wrong.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:53 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:45 pm
depends on what translation one goes with;
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

This is so pathetic. Do you understand what is meant by vinnana? If you do, you should be explain it in your own words without referring to "authorities".

If the "authority X" says one thing and "authority Y" says another, you don't know which one is right, or whether both are wrong.
Listen dude,
I can explain to you the literal meaning of vinnnana as i understand it as well as the verse, every word of the verse and the context for the verse. Further i can demonstrate IRREFUTABLE logical inference explaining the relationship between the verse, the translation and the Sutta at large for the definition of the referent for the Vinnanam Anidassanam.

I can also provide you with a lot of scholarly explainations by as good of Pali experts as you are going to find and i got Tika support.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:56 pm

I can explain to you the literal meaning of vinnnana as i understand it as well as the verse, every word of the verse and the context for the verse. Further i can demonstrate IRREFUTABLE logical inference explaining the relationship between the verse, the translation and the Sutta at large for the definition of the referent for the Vinnanam Anidassanam.

I can also provide you with a lot of scholarly explainations by as good of Pali experts as you are going to find and i got Tika support.
Please do. I will be waiting for your analysis.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:57 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:56 pm
I can explain to you the literal meaning of vinnnana as i understand it as well as the verse, every word of the verse and the context for the verse. Further i can demonstrate IRREFUTABLE logical inference explaining the relationship between the verse, the translation and the Sutta at large for the definition of the referent for the Vinnanam Anidassanam.

I can also provide you with a lot of scholarly explainations by as good of Pali experts as you are going to find and i got Tika support.
Please do. I will be waiting for your analysis.
I think the burden of proof is on you given that you are the one with an original interpretation but i will make you a suggestion;
If i do all these things that i claimed to be able to do and if wise people can agree on you being unable to demonstrate by means of formal logic that i am wrong - You will take down your website or at least stop posting here.

If you are able to refute i will stop posting myself if you so want.

Here is Dhammanando on this exact topic;
In the Mahāvihāra's understanding viññāṇaṃ does not mean consciousness in this context. Instead, it is defined as viññātabbaṃ, a verbal derivative that can be taken as a noun ('that which must be cognized') or an adjective ('to be cognized', 'must be cognized'). If we take it as a noun, then the famous line viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ will be translated, "the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating." Taking it as an adjective qualifying anidassana (well-attested in the Suttas as a synonym of nibbāna), we get, "The Unseeable that must be cognized, that is without end, that is all-illuminating".
Here Suan Lu zwa, a Burmese pali scholar;
"(To be known specially) means to be extraordinarily known. The meaning is 'to be known in the sense of realization by ultimate wisdom, by noble path wisdom'". Therefore, (the commentator) stated that 'This is the name of nibbana'" Therefore, the term 'Viññanam' in the line of the original Pali verse "Viññanam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham .." does not refer to consciousness, the usual meaning of viññanam.
In fact, the same verse includes the following two lines "Ettha namañca rupañca, asesam uparujjhati
Viññanassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhati'ti". "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." Nibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of its Pali names happens to be Viññanam. In English language, the term 'object' can have different meanings. For example, the term 'object' in visual object has no relation to
the term 'object' in my object of studting Pali."
As i said burden of proof is on you but i am willing to offer you the game.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:00 pm

I think the burden of proof is on you
No. It is not. I have explained my interpretation many times.
None of you have, including your "authorities".

You just make quotes that you DO NOT understand.

P.S. I have explained vinnana in simple terms at: "Vinnana – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations" Dec 21, 2018 (p. 55); discussion continued to Dec. 23, 2018 (to p. 57). Also, "Connection Between Sankhāra and Viññāna" Dec 29, 2018 (p. 57); "Vinnana and Sankhara – Connection to Paticca Samuppada" Jan 01, 2019 (P. 57).
Last edited by Lal on Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:01 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:00 pm
I think the burden of proof is on you
No. It is not. I have explained my interpretation many times.
None of you have, including your "authorities".
well do you accept or not? I think it is a fair offer.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:28 pm

If we take other translations, perhaps;
Consciousness non-manifesting
or
Consciousness without a feature
or
Consciousness that is signless

These can also be explained to refer either to cessation of Dukkha or to the Dhamma that is not dukkha or to consciousness that does not land. These too would either be referring to the 3rd noble truth itself or the implication of the 3rd noble truth as demonstrated above.

What this verse certainly does not mean is that it is consciousness of an Arahant as is suggested by the Lal's website, an idea completely foreign to Theravada and that does not even appear in the commentaries. This idea is contradicted by the very verse it attempts to explain, let alone the Sutta where the verse appears.

Consciosness of an arahant is like any other consciousness, it cognizes pain, pleasure, bitterness, sweetness and is associated with contact and is a support for and is supported by namarupa and is included in the nama.

The verse reads that Vinnanam Anidassanam is where form gains no footing let alone that namarupa and consciousness are brought to an end.

Further consciousness of an arahant is associated with the All, eye&forms etc which make for the second contradiction of MN49 which states that Vinnanam Anidassanam is not experienced thru the allness of the All.

Therefore Lal's theory is proven false by contradiction, twice, by the very Sutta he tries to explain.

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