The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:31 pm

auto said:
that means where the elments won't land, like sunlight going through glass.
If you can explain in your own words, that would help. Elements (patavi, apo, tejo, vayo) are landing where?
What does it even mean by saying "elements land"?

freedom said:
Since you said that pure consciousness is short lived, so it is impermanent. If it is impermanent, then will it be suffering?

If that pure consciousness is impermanent, will it be pure forever? if it is, then can we say that it is permanently pure?

What do you mean "self" and "perception of a self"?
One must first think about what is meant by consciousness.
- Consciousness means "being aware". So, when you get a thought you are aware of something: seeing a picture, hearing sound etc. So, what one is being aware changes all the time.
- Each thought comes and goes away. Why do you even think a thought could be permanent?

Pure consciousness just means those thoughts are not contaminated with greed, hate, or ignorance.
- Even a normal human may have such thoughts at least once in a while.
- Only when one sees and appealing object, one may become greedy. Only when one sees an enemy, angry thoughts may arise, etc. Then those are defiled consciousness.
- However, such defiled thoughts (or consciousness) will never arise in an Arahant.

auto
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:52 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:31 pm
auto said:
that means where the elments won't land, like sunlight going through glass.
If you can explain in your own words, that would help. Elements (patavi, apo, tejo, vayo) are landing where?
What does it even mean by saying "elements land"?
elements won't cling to vinnana. Vinnana doesn't experience increase.

i probably have autism. I already discovered what possible issues are with the gnosis i presented while you still struggle with grammatics.

freedom
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:29 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:31 pm
freedom said:
Since you said that pure consciousness is short lived, so it is impermanent. If it is impermanent, then will it be suffering?

If that pure consciousness is impermanent, will it be pure forever? if it is, then can we say that it is permanently pure?

What do you mean "self" and "perception of a self"?
One must first think about what is meant by consciousness.
- Consciousness means "being aware". So, when you get a thought you are aware of something: seeing a picture, hearing sound etc. So, what one is being aware changes all the time.
- Each thought comes and goes away. Why do you even think a thought could be permanent?

Pure consciousness just means those thoughts are not contaminated with greed, hate, or ignorance.
- Even a normal human may have such thoughts at least once in a while.
- Only when one sees and appealing object, one may become greedy. Only when one sees an enemy, angry thoughts may arise, etc. Then those are defiled consciousness.
- However, such defiled thoughts (or consciousness) will never arise in an Arahant.
You are confusing me...
"Consciousness means "being aware"... Pure consciousness just means those thoughts..."

Per your definitions, Is consciousness the same or different than thought?

If consciousness is different than thought then is it permanent or impermanent?

If consciousness or thought is impermanent then are they suffering or not?

What do you mean "self" and "perception of a self"?
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:00 pm

@freedom:
Please explain what you mean by consciousness and "self", if you want any more clarification from me. I have explained those many times.

These are fundamental concepts that we need to understand first.

I think the basic issue here with the discussions today is that translators use a single word to translate key Pali terms with a single word. Vinnana cannot be simply translated as just "consciousness" or a "thought" (however, consciousness is in a thought); vinnana is more than just a "thought". I have explained vinnana before. Please find those and read. I gave a summary of past posts recently too. You can quote from those posts and ask questions if something is not clear.

freedom
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:32 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:00 pm
@freedom:
Please explain what you mean by consciousness and "self", if you want any more clarification from me. I have explained those many times.

These are fundamental concepts that we need to understand first.

I think the basic issue here with the discussions today is that translators use a single word to translate key Pali terms with a single word. Vinnana cannot be simply translated as just "consciousness" or a "thought" (however, consciousness is in a thought); vinnana is more than just a "thought". I have explained vinnana before. Please find those and read. I gave a summary of past posts recently too. You can quote from those posts and ask questions if something is not clear.
I asked simple and direct questions. However, you do not give me direct answers. Now you said "consciousness is in a thought", vinnana is more than just a "thought"...

Let me ask you simpler questions:

Is vinnana permanent or impermanent?
If "pure" vinnana is different than vinnana then is "pure" vinnana permanent or impermanent?

If (pure) vinnana is impermanent then is it suffering or not?

I think my questions are simple and direct. If not, please let me know what do you not understand from my questions?
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:39 pm

Lal wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 pm
I'll decide what I post, thanks, along with what I consider to be of value.
OK. This is exactly what happened in the past too. People (including bhikkhus) just bow out of the discussion when they do not have answers.

In my opinion, vinnana is a key concept. If one wants to understand what Nibbana is, one needs to understand what vinnana is. THE key concept of Buddha Dhamma is Nibbana.

Anyway, I have no problem with your position. But when someone says I am stating wrong facts, I have to ask them what the correct facts are.
They didn't back out. They were just finished talking. I wonder if Sati the Fisherman's Son went about bragging as to how the Buddha backed down from a debate with him after their engagement?
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

kstan1122
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:53 am

freedom wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:32 pm

Let me ask you simpler questions:

Is vinnana permanent or impermanent?
If "pure" vinnana is different than vinnana then is "pure" vinnana permanent or impermanent?

If (pure) vinnana is impermanent then is it suffering or not?

I think my questions are simple and direct. If not, please let me know what do you not understand from my questions?
If you have not understood what is citta, mano, manasam, .... vinnana, vinnanakkhandha, read this Citta (Consciousness) for a better understanding how citta is contaminated in nine steps.

A pure thought is only citta. An Arahant thoughts will not go pass the manasam stage (3rd step), so there is no vinnana (defiled thought) in an Arahant.

Much metta.

freedom
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:07 am

kstan1122 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:53 am
freedom wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:32 pm

Let me ask you simpler questions:

Is vinnana permanent or impermanent?
If "pure" vinnana is different than vinnana then is "pure" vinnana permanent or impermanent?

If (pure) vinnana is impermanent then is it suffering or not?

I think my questions are simple and direct. If not, please let me know what do you not understand from my questions?
If you have not understood what is citta, mano, manasam, .... vinnana, vinnanakkhandha, read this Citta (Consciousness) for a better understanding how citta is contaminated in nine steps.

A pure thought is only citta. An Arahant thoughts will not go pass the manasam stage (3rd step), so there is no vinnana (defiled thought) in an Arahant.

Much metta.
Thanks, but I did not ask how or if it is contaminated. I asked if it is permanent or not? (Consciousness, pure consciousness, vinnana, thought, awareness, now is citta,... what else?)

If it (citta?) is impermanent, is it suffering or not?

I hope that my questions are clear enough.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

kstan1122
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:13 am

freedom wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:07 am
Thanks, but I did not ask how or if it is contaminated. I asked if it is permanent or not? (Consciousness, pure consciousness, vinnana, thought, awareness, now is citta,... what else?)

If it (citta?) is impermanent, is it suffering or not?

I hope that my questions are clear enough.
This is what is stated in the Citta (Consciousness) above.
“Citta” is defined as “cinteti’ti cittan”, here the word” cinteti” means thinking; thinking of an object is Consciousness (Citta). “Arammanan Vijanati”, the word “Arammana” means “object” and “ vijānāti” means “ to know”, so knowing various object is Citta. In simpler terms Citta can be defined as ‘consciousness of the senses’ or ‘awareness of an object’. The term Citta is invariably employed while referring to different classes of consciousness. In isolated cases, in the ordinary sense of mind, both terms Citta and Mano are frequently used.
Citta is that which is conscious of objects all the times. This nature of awareness of objects is called consciousness. Here awareness does not mean comprehension by knowledge or wisdom. It means ability to take in objects through sense organs.

Six objects of senses, Six forms of consciousness:

All forms of sight=ruparammana
All forms of sound=saddarammana
All forms of smell=gandharammana
All forms of taste=rasarammana
All forms of touch=photthabbarammana
All other perceptible objects=dhammarammana

On seeing a visible object, consciousness of sight appears. On hearing a sound, consciousness of sound appears, On smelling a scent, consciousness of smell appears. On sampling a taste, consciousness of taste appears. On feeling a touch, consciousness of touch appears. On perceiving those five objects of senses and all other perceptible objects, consciousness of mind appears. Thus, the capability of taking in an object concerned is called consciousness (citta).

This citta is a continuous stream, and for every sense input event, it has seventeen thought moment and each thought moment has three sub-moments of arising, presence, and dissolution ==> so you may take this thought moment as being impermanent. When there is no sense input, bhavanga (life continuum) will takes its place. Only when a person is dead then will the citta stop.

A citta alone cannot gives a person suffering. To have suffering, it need to involve desires to have something and that something that the person desires cannot be fulfilled. So not getting what one's desires that leads to suffering which is stated in the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta (SN 56.11) in the verse "yampiccham na labhati tampi dukkham". This means anicca leads to suffering. Therefore anicca is not getting what one's desires that leads to suffering (dukkha). Only when you have desires (craving or tanha) (is the defiled vinnana) and not getting it leads to suffering. This is the Second Noble Truth (Dukkha Samudaya Ariya Sacca) - the origin of suffering which is craving. [samudaya = san + udaya where udaya means rise or increase and therefore samudaya means the rise or increase of san where san means the good and bad things we acquire. Bad things refer to the three roots of lobha, dosa, and moha]

Much metta.

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:00 am

Vinnana – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations

1. I went back and glanced through the posts that I posted here earlier: “Two Types of Viññāna – We Have Control Over Kamma Viññāna” August 21, 2018 (p. 23); “Nine Stages of a Thought (Citta)” August 19, 2018 (p. 22); Clarification of viññāna on August 17, August 18, 2018 (p. 21).

- I had assumed that most readers would have a basic knowledge of what is meant by  viññāna when I wrote those. However, now I realize that it is a good idea to provide an introduction to what is meant by viññāna. I realize that no one has explained what is really meant by viññāna in current English texts.

2. Viññāna includes or encompasses the following: our feelings (vēdanā), perceptions (saññā), and a set individual mental factors (cētasika). They all arise  together, and the set of cētasika that arise is dependent on each person’s gati (habits/character).

- I will take a couple of examples to describe viññāna in a simple way. I will skip some details to make the picture simple.
- A "seeing event" occurs with a series of citta, but when citta get contaminated in a 9-step fast process, they end up as "viññānakkhandha" (or viññāna aggregate). And that is basically what we call "viññāna" or a "defiled consciousness". At this stage, just focus on viññāna.

3. As an example, when person X sees a lady (Y), that is called a "seeing event" or cakkhu viññāna.

- With that cakkhu viññāna, X recognizes Y as an attractive female and that is called saññā; X may generate "happy feelings" when seeing Y and that is vēdanā; X may also generate lust in his mind and that is a mental factor (cetasika).
- All those arise SIMULTANEOUSLY and that cakkhu viññāna encompasses or includes all those (vēdanā, saññā, and other types of cetasika).

3. Now, suppose  Y has just come to X's workplace as a new employee.

- After seeing Y, there could arise  another subtle expectation in X's mind of getting a date to go out with Y, and may be getting to marry Y someday.
- That idea will remain hidden in X's mind and can re-surface at appropriate times, especially when seeing Y again, or when someone mentions Y's name for example.
- That is a manō viññāna that stays hidden in X's mind. It has the expectation of getting an opportunity to have a close relationship with Y.

4. So, let us assume that X has been seeing Y for a few days and may be even got to talk to her a few times. Each time X interacts with Y, that "viññāna for having a close relationship with Y" will grow in X's mind.

- Furthermore, X will be thinking about Y often, that will also help make that "viññāna for having a close relationship with Y" to grow.
- That happens via "sankhāra paccaya viññāna" step in Paticca Samuppāda.

5. Several days later, X finds out that Y is married, when her husband comes to meet her at work.

- Now, in an instant, X's "viññāna for having a close relationship with Y" will be eliminated.
- He could clearly see that she is happily married and there is no point in even thinking about having a relationship with her.

6. There are many types of viññāna that we can have. The minor ones are just expectations of getting something done or buying something or getting new job, etc.

- Sankhāra or "thinking of that expectation and making plans to get it done also by speaking and doing things (that includes vaci sankhāra and kāya sankhāra)" will make that viññāna to grow. This comes via the "sankhāra paccaya viññāna" step.
- In another example, suppose X is thinking about buying a certain type of car. That idea or expectation will be "at the back of his mind" all the time. - If he sees a car like that on the road, then that viññāna will be awakened, and he will start thinking about it again.
- Now, one day X buys that car. Then that viññāna will also disappear since he will no longer interested in buying a car. That expectation has been fulfilled.

7. I gave those two examples to illustrate the basic concept. But more complex types of viññāna can grow based on certain types of activities that X engages in, and those can become patisandhi viññāna that can lead to rebirths.

- For example, if X constantly engages in helping others, donating time and money to charities, etc, he would be cultivating the mindset of a deva (even without knowing). Then that "moral viññāna" would grow with time and may lead to a rebirth in a deva realm.
- Therefore, viññāna can be various types. However, there are six basic types of viññāna. The above examples all belong to "manō viññāna", except the cakkhu viññāna that was involved when X saw Y.

8. When one of our senses detects something in our physical world, one of five types of viññāna arise. 

- We become aware of something in our physical world via cakkhu viññāna (seeing), sota viññāna (hearing), ghāna viññāna (smelling), jivhā viññāna (tasting), and kāya viññāna (touching).

9. As we can see, those five types of viññāna just bring external sense objects (pictures, sounds, tastes, smells, and touches) to our mind.

- Then manō viññāna takes over, and will decide to act on it -- and if needed -- makes "future expectations" or "future plans". Therefore, it is the manō viññāna that builds expectations for the future.
- We ignore most of the things we see, hear, etc. But if we get attracted to something, then we will be going back to see, hear, etc and may be making other related plans too. That is all done with manō viññāna.

10. Obviously, patisandhi viññāna is a very important manō viññāna. It can determine future births.

- This is a complex subject, but when one engages in highly immoral deeds, the patisandhi viññāna that grows may not be what one desires.
- For example, suppose X is a serial rapist. He gets a temporary sense satisfaction by raping girls. What he does not know is that he is cultivating a viññāna that is appropriate for an animal. So, he could get an animal birth because of that immoral viññāna he is cultivating.
- So, hopefully you can see the connection between viññāna and gati too.

11. When one attains the Sōtapanna stage of Nibbāna, one would see the futility of such such immoral and briefly-lived sense pleasures. Then such types of "immoral viññāna" would not be cultivated in his mind.

- In other words, one's "hidden immoral gati" will be permanently removed at the  Sōtapanna stage.
- That is comparable to X losing the "viññāna for having a close relationship with Y" in #4 above. In that case, X clearly saw the uselessness of having that viññāna, and it died.
- It would be a good idea to read and understand posts on gati:Post on habits (Pali word “gati”, but gati is more that habits) on August 18, 2018 (p. 22); "How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View",  Nov 28, 2018 (p. 50); "Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein", Oct 27, 2018 (p. 43); "Gati to Bhava to Jāti – Ours to Control", Nov 15, 2018 (p. 47).

12. I made this very simple in order to get two main ideas across, which are:

- Viññāna is a complex concept. This is why it not appropriate to translate viññāna as just "consciousness".
- Viññāna is closely related to sankhāra. We cultivate  those via "sankhāra paccaya viññāna" in the Paticca Samuppāda cycles.
- I will write more on sankhāra in the next post, and why "san" is a key root word in Pāli. Then the picture will become even more clear.

13. I hope most people can now follow the previous posts mentioned in #1 above.

- As I have said many times, real Buddha Dhamma is deep. It takes an effort to learn. Just translating deep suttas word-by-word and just reading those translations will not be of much benefit in the log run.
- Of course some suttas can be translated word-by-word, like the Kalama Sutta (AN 3.65). Those are basic suttas that provide guidelines to live a moral life. But deep suttas that discuss anicca, anatta, or Nibbāna require a bit more deeper knowledge of the basics like what is meant by saññā, viññāna, sankhāra, etc.
- It is best to learn the meanings of these key words and just use them, instead of translating them as a single English word. I hope you can why, with the above discussion on viññāna.
- I hope you can also understand also why it is not possible to "just give a simple answer" to some questions. One must first make a real effort to understand key basic concepts. For those who are willing to make that effort,  I will try to clear up some more basic concepts in the next post.

14. Finally, I hope that those "scholar bhikkhus", who translate deep suttas word-by-word, will at least read these series of posts and make amendments to their ways of translating  key suttas that discuss deep meanings. They are no different from the Sati bhikkhu who could not understand what is meant by viññāna in the Maha Tanhasankhaya Sutta (MN 36).

- The Kevaddha sutta (DN 11) is another deep sutta (among many others) which explains why Nibbāna is "viññāna nirōdha". One should not be translating such deep suttas until one understands what is meant by viññāna. Their faithful followers are in the dark, because of them. This is really a sad case of "blind leading the blind".
- Of course if anyone can respond with evidence from the Tipitaka that what I described above is incorrect, we can have a discussion. Otherwise, I will just ignore comments that do not serve any purpose.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:41 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:00 am

- I had assumed that most readers would have a basic knowledge of what is meant by  viññāna when I wrote those. However, now I realize that it is a good idea to provide an introduction to what is meant by viññāna. I realize that no one has explained what is really meant by viññāna in current English texts.
On the contrary, there seem to be many authors who have explained in English texts what is meant by viññāna. Do you not know of any, or do you really mean that you merely have a different explanation?

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:20 pm

On the contrary, there seem to be many authors who have explained in English texts what is meant by viññāna.
Please provide a link. Thank you!

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:42 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:00 am
- The Kevaddha sutta (DN 11) is another deep sutta (among many others) which explains why Nibbāna is "viññāna nirōdha". One should not be translating such deep suttas until one understands what is meant by viññāna. Their faithful followers are in the dark, because of them. This is really a sad case of "blind leading the blind".
- Of course if anyone can respond with evidence from the Tipitaka that what I described above is incorrect, we can have a discussion. Otherwise, I will just ignore comments that do not serve any purpose.
DN11
kattha nu kho ime cattāro mahābhūtā aparisesā nirujjhanti, seyyathidaṃ—pathavīdhātu āpodhātu tejodhātu vāyodhātū’ti?
Blessed one pointed out correct phrasing:
‘Kattha āpo ca pathavī,
tejo vāyo na gādhati;
Kattha dīghañca rassañca,
aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Kattha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhatī’ti.
answer
‘Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ,
anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Ettha āpo ca pathavī,
tejo vāyo na gādhati.

Ettha dīghañca rassañca,
aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena,
etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’”ti.
na gadhati - doesn't have a footing. It is amatogadha, everlastingly deep, you see object but nothing clings no arisings happen; nothing telling.
digha, rassa, anum, thulam (these are name and form)
name and form are on
uparujjhati - standby; ready to arise

vinnanam anidassam is that it is after the ',' anantam sabbatopabham 'lucid(luminous) all around'(Thanissaro https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn ... .than.html). Awareness what is lucid.
Where 4 elements are eternally deep
where namarupa is on standby

nirodhena = nibbanapariyosana, it is where name and form are on standby.

vinnanam anidassam is
lucid awareness what is the standby point where is no arisings. You need yourself awake condition for to something to arise.

correct phrasing is with the 'know how'

auto
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by auto » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:55 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:00 am
..
dog watches door when waiting his master, it is a luminous consciousness what acts as a source for this action. So the door what dog sees doesn't have name and form, the door what dog sees is in different dimension than the sense consciousness door.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:19 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:20 pm
On the contrary, there seem to be many authors who have explained in English texts what is meant by viññāna.
Please provide a link. Thank you!
The PTS dictionary might be a good place to start:
https://suttacentral.net/search?query=vinnana

Also Nanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Buddhist-Dicti ... 9552400198

has a section on it.

Sue Hamilton's Identity and Experience has a lot to say about viññāna, especially in the context of the khandhas; chapter 5 deals specifically with it.
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... n_1996.pdf

Gombrich's work owes a big debt to Hamilton, and there is a lot about the term in What the Buddha Thought.

Piya Tan has also provided a handy little guide:
http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmaf ... a-piya.pdf

Walpola Rahula also provides an outline in What the Buddha Taught, in Chapter 2, dealing with the 1st Noble Truth.

Nanavira has a slightly different take in Notes on Dhamma:
https://www.nanavira.org/index.php/note ... es/vinna-a

In addition, in almost any introductory text on Buddhism the author will include an explanation of the term.

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