The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

A forum for Dhamma resources in languages other than English
whynotme
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by whynotme » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:35 pm

freedom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:06 pm
The goal of Buddhism is to uproot all clinging, not to prove that I am right or I possessed the true Dhamma, or I am noble, this or that,...

If we follow a path and our clinging is increased, then it is not the Buddha's path.

It is better to see if we are clinging to something than to argue this is right and that is wrong. Once we can see that clinging, cut it off. That is the true Buddha's Dhamma - Not all the fancy Pali words or interpretations. They are simply tools for us to see and cut off our own clinging.

If we can explain all of the "difficult" prefixes, "hidden words" or "difficult concepts" but we cannot see what we are clinging to and how to cut them off, then we do not understand Buddha's Dhamma.

Even if we can remember and teach all "true" Buddha's Dhamma, but if we cannot see our own clinging and why we cling to them then we are living in vain.

If our understanding of Buddha's Dhamma cannot help us to cut off our own clinging then it is useless for us no matter how beautiful it is.

If our understanding of Buddha's Dhamma cannot help us to cut off our own clinging then how can we use it to help others to do so?

If we see someone is spreading wrong Dhamma, out of compassion, we can gently point out their mistakes so they can see them. However, if they refused to accept our advice, we should also not cling to that.

If we see someone is receiving wrong Dhamma, out of compassion, we can gently point out the mistakes so they can see them. However, if they refused to accept our advice, we should also not cling to that.

We should also not to cling to our own understandings. We instead should always scrutinize them so we can see their smallest mistakes. The important of knowledge is to help us to reach our goal. If it can help us to do so then it is right for us.

Each person will be fully responsible for his/her own action. There is strict Kamma law in place to correct their mistakes, so it is not our jobs to do so. Why cling to them?

"True" exists because there is "not true". Without "not true", there is no "true", so why bother to wipe out "no true"?

"Bad" will always exist and it will attract ignorance people. That's how it is. Out of compassion, we point the way out. If someone can see the way out, it is good for them. Otherwise, they are what they are. They will need to work out their own kamma.

We should act out of compassion than from "true" or "not true". If we cannot, then just let it be what it is, and always watch out our own speech and action.
While this is a good advice, I want to add some minor elements.

It seems you underestimate the work to transmit or teach the dhamma. E.g. "Even if we can remember and teach all "true" Buddha's Dhamma, but if we cannot see our own clinging and why we cling to them then we are living in vain."

As the Tipitaka said, the giving of dhamma is the most superior form of giving (dana). So even we are still has own our clinging, if our teaching can help other people release their suffering, that is the best giving. And in the end, the merit of that giving will come back to the donor, help him release his suffering.

So dont worry if you are still clinging but teaching dhamma. I have seen many people on this forum gave advice that you should concentrate on your problem. Actually it is quite the opposite. There is a sutta, it is said that if you have clinging, you should do another thing, and dont give attention to the problem. For example, an attractive woman is in your mind, you should give attention to other matters. Teaching dhamma is a good matter to do to avoid giving attention to the clinging
Please stop following me

WorldTraveller
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by WorldTraveller » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:55 pm

kstan1122 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:42 am
Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:05 am
Lal,

I request you to shut down the Pure Dhamma website found at https://puredhamma.net/. If you want to spread Dhamma in its pure form there, here and in other places, I suggest you to take an approach where you do not go about adding extra ideas, extra concepts, extra theories, extra interpretations, but stick with what is explicitly written in Tipitaka.

Kamal Wickramanayake
http://www.trekmentor.com/kamal
Do you know that it is all these extras that there has been many Sotapannas taking roots and many more will be expected to be Sotapannas in the future?

Are you able to shoulder this huge responsibility for your suggestions?

Much metta.
Are you saying that you and Lal are sotapannas who have taken the huge responsibility of making us infidels ariyas too? :woohoo:
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Kālāma-sutta

freedom
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:44 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:38 pm

whynotme wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:35 pm

While this is a good advice, I want to add some minor elements.

It seems you underestimate the work to transmit or teach the dhamma. E.g. "Even if we can remember and teach all "true" Buddha's Dhamma, but if we cannot see our own clinging and why we cling to them then we are living in vain."

As the Tipitaka said, the giving of dhamma is the most superior form of giving (dana). So even we are still has own our clinging, if our teaching can help other people release their suffering, that is the best giving. And in the end, the merit of that giving will come back to the donor, help him release his suffering.

So dont worry if you are still clinging but teaching dhamma. I have seen many people on this forum gave advice that you should concentrate on your problem. Actually it is quite the opposite. There is a sutta, it is said that if you have clinging, you should do another thing, and dont give attention to the problem. For example, an attractive woman is in your mind, you should give attention to other matters. Teaching dhamma is a good matter to do to avoid giving attention to the clinging
Let me make a simple simile...

There is a man who is in grave danger. A great earthquake is approaching him from the north, a great flood is approaching him from the south, a terrible pandemic is approaching him from the west, a great war is approaching him from the east, a killer hail is about to fall on his head. However, he is not aware of the dangers or not seeing the urgency of his grave situation so he feels totally safe and satisfy with how he is now.

He taught others the way to safety:

To avoid earthquake, flood, pandemic, war, hail,.. you should not live with these..., but he himself lives happily with those. Why? Because he does not see his own clinging and the danger of it.

To avoid earthquake, flood, pandemic, war, hail,...you should understand this word, that word, this sutta, that sutta... This word means this, that word mean that,... and he satisfies with that intellectual understanding.

To avoid earthquake, flood, pandemic, war, hail,...you should do this, do that, but when he tried to do so, he did not see much result and does not know why? Or he may even never try to do so and never know what will happen.

At the end, he never see and experience the safety that he tried to teach.

Or he may even never pay attention to the earthquake, flood, pandemic, war, hail that are approaching, so he taught others:

Sutta#1: This, that, that,... this means this, that means that,...
Sutta#2: This, that, that,... this means this, that means that,...
....
Sutta#1000: This, that, that,... this means this, that means that,...

This word means this, that word means that,...

He satisfies with those intellectual understanding after spending most of his life for them. He may even think that he is safe because of those intellectual understanding, and because he taught others the beautiful Dhamma (as he assumed!) so he made a lot of good kamma, but he does not know that he will experience a painful ending when those earthquake, flood, pandemic, war, hail,... come to him.

(Earthquake is for birth, flood is for old age, pandemic is for sickness, war is for death, killer hail is for bad kamma).

Don't you see he is living in vain? Why? Because he does not know the way to escape, never actually walk the path and/or he does not see the urgency/danger of his situation.

Not saying if he may teach a "wrong" Dhamma!
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

kstan1122
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:54 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:57 am

WorldTraveller wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:55 pm
kstan1122 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:42 am
Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:05 am
Lal,

I request you to shut down the Pure Dhamma website found at https://puredhamma.net/. If you want to spread Dhamma in its pure form there, here and in other places, I suggest you to take an approach where you do not go about adding extra ideas, extra concepts, extra theories, extra interpretations, but stick with what is explicitly written in Tipitaka.

Kamal Wickramanayake
http://www.trekmentor.com/kamal
Do you know that it is all these extras that there has been many Sotapannas taking roots and many more will be expected to be Sotapannas in the future?

Are you able to shoulder this huge responsibility for your suggestions?

Much metta.
Are you saying that you and Lal are sotapannas who have taken the huge responsibility of making us infidels too? :woohoo:
I am on my way to be a Sotapanna, as for Lal he had been a Sotapanna for a long time.

WorldTraveller
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by WorldTraveller » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:24 am

kstan1122 wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:57 am
WorldTraveller wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:55 pm
kstan1122 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:42 am

Do you know that it is all these extras that there has been many Sotapannas taking roots and many more will be expected to be Sotapannas in the future?

Are you able to shoulder this huge responsibility for your suggestions?

Much metta.
Are you saying that you and Lal are sotapannas who have taken the huge responsibility of making us infidels too? :woohoo:
I am on my way to be a Sotapanna, as for Lal he had been a Sotapanna for a long time.
Thanks. So, you are just a pothujjana (common wordling). How you know Lal is a sotapanna? You have psychic powers or Lal told you that he is a sotapanna?
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Kālāma-sutta

kstan1122
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:54 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:01 am

WorldTraveller wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:24 am
kstan1122 wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:57 am
WorldTraveller wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:55 pm

Are you saying that you and Lal are sotapannas who have taken the huge responsibility of making us infidels too? :woohoo:
I am on my way to be a Sotapanna, as for Lal he had been a Sotapanna for a long time.
Thanks. So, you are just a pothujjana (common wordling).How you know Lal is a sotapanna? You have psychic powers or Lal told you that he is a sotapanna?
If you have read the whole web pages of Pure Dhamma website, you would have know that he is a Sotapanna (written somewhere in the website).

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:11 am

kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am
It is unfortunate to see that people with good ethic still do not understand what is dasa akusala (ten immoral actions).
Hi, could you kindly quote from the suttas where mental actions are called "sila"? Thanks
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am

Three kāya sankhāra (immoral acts done with the body):
  • Pānātipātā (killing)
  • Adinnādānā (taking what is not given)
  • Kāmesu miccācārā (not just sexual misconduct, but also excessive of sense pleasures)
Four vaci sankhāra (immoral acts done with speech):
  • Musāvāda (Lying)
  • Pisunāvācā (slandering)
  • Parusāvācā (harsh speech)
  • Sampappalāpā (frivolous talk)
Three manosankhāra (immoral acts done with the mind):
The suttas (MN 44, MN 118, etc) define 'kaya sankhara' as 'in & out breathing'; vaci sankhara as initial & sustained thought and citta sankhara as perception & feeling. However, as for manosankhara, this seems to be found in suttas about kamma. Personally, I think a stream-enterer would concern themselves with Higher Supramundane Dhamma rather than mundane puthujjana dharma about karma. Karma is not a factor of stream-entry. In fact, clinging with false hopes about kamma (sīlabbata-parāmāsa) is a fetter to stream-entry.

Also, in MN 57, manosankhara, kayasankhara and vacisankhara are also used to describe wholesome action (but you posted they are only immoral actions). Does Lal believe manosankhara, kayasankhara and vacisankhara are in Dependent Origination?
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:27 am
Kāmesu miccācārā is commonly translated as “avoiding sexual misconduct”. But “kāma” is not just sexual activity; “kāma” includes all sense pleasures that are available in the kama loka. And “miccacara” (pronounced “michchāchāra”) means “misbehavior” in the sense of “going to extremes”. Thus the real meaning is to not to over-indulge in sense pleasures.
The suttas appear to define the 3rd precept as relating to sex. Are there any suttas that support your view? Thanks
kstan1122 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:08 am
SN 44.10 With Ānanda – Ānandasutta sutta
When you highlighted the words of Vacchagotta in SN 44.10, you seem to overlook two things:

1. It was Vacchagatta who spoke these words (rather than the Buddha).

2. Vacchagotta never spoke the word "anatta".

kstan1122
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:54 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:11 am
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am
It is unfortunate to see that people with good ethic still do not understand what is dasa akusala (ten immoral actions).
Hi, could you kindly quote from the suttas where mental actions are called "sila"? Thanks
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am

Three kāya sankhāra (immoral acts done with the body):
  • Pānātipātā (killing)
  • Adinnādānā (taking what is not given)
  • Kāmesu miccācārā (not just sexual misconduct, but also excessive of sense pleasures)
Four vaci sankhāra (immoral acts done with speech):
  • Musāvāda (Lying)
  • Pisunāvācā (slandering)
  • Parusāvācā (harsh speech)
  • Sampappalāpā (frivolous talk)
Three manosankhāra (immoral acts done with the mind):
The suttas (MN 44, MN 118, etc) define 'kaya sankhara' as 'in & out breathing'; vaci sankhara as initial & sustained thought and citta sankhara as perception & feeling. However, as for manosankhara, this seems to be found in suttas about kamma. Personally, I think a stream-enterer would concern themselves with Higher Supramundane Dhamma rather than mundane puthujjana dharma about karma. Karma is not a factor of stream-entry. In fact, clinging with false hopes about kamma (sīlabbata-parāmāsa) is a fetter to stream-entry.
The word "sīla" as the defined by the PTS Pali-English dictionary below, does have the mental action as "sīla".

Whatever thing always has it counterpart, so dasa akusala has its counterpart as dasa kusala which everybody knows. When the sad things is being described it will be just the dasa akusala.
sīla - PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Sīla,(nt.) [cp.Sk.śīla.It is interesting to note that the Dhtp puts down a root sīl in meaning of samādhi (No.268) and upadhāraṇa (615)] 1.nature,character,habit,behaviour; usually as --° in adj.function “being of such a nature,” like,having the character of ...,e.g.adāna° of stingy character,illiberal Sn.244; PvA.68 (+maccharin); kiṁ° of what behaviour? Pv.II,913; keḷi° tricky PvA.241; damana° one who conquers PvA.251; parisuddha° of excellent character A.III,124; pāpa° wicked Sn.246; bhaṇana° wont to speak DhA.IV,93; vāda° quarrelsome Sn.381 sq.-- dussīla (of) bad character D.III,235; Dhs.1327; Pug.20,53; Pv.II,82 (noun); II,969 (adj.); DhA.II,252; IV,3; Sdhp.338; Miln.257; opp.susīla S.I,141.-- 2.moral practice,good character,Buddhist ethics,code of morality.(a) The dasa-sīla or 10 items of good character (not “commandments”) are (1) pāṇâtipātā veramaṇī,i.e.abstinence from taking life; (2) adinn’ādānā (from) taking what is not given to one; (3) abrahmacariyā adultery (oṭherwise called kāmesu micchā-cārā); (4) musāvādā telling lies; (5) pisuna-vācāya slander; (6) pharusa-vācāya harsh or impolite speech; (7) samphappalāpā frivolous and senseless talk; (8) abhijjhāya covetousness; (9) byāpādā malevolence; (10) micchādiṭṭhiyā heretic views.-- Of these 10 we sometimes find only the first 7 designated as “sīla” per se,or good character generally.See e.g.A.I,269 (where called sīla-sampadā); II,83 sq.(not called “sīla”),& sampadā.--
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:11 am
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:27 am
Kāmesu miccācārā is commonly translated as “avoiding sexual misconduct”. But “kāma” is not just sexual activity; “kāma” includes all sense pleasures that are available in the kama loka. And “miccacara” (pronounced “michchāchāra”) means “misbehavior” in the sense of “going to extremes”. Thus the real meaning is to not to over-indulge in sense pleasures.
The suttas appear to define the 3rd precept as relating to sex. Are there any suttas that support your view? Thanks
The word "kāmesu micchācāra" means "on or in kāmā [kāma is defined below] of wrong conduct or living (micchācāro:Wrong conduct or living)".
kāma PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Kāma,(m.nt.) [Dhtp (603) & Dhtm (843) paraphrase by “icchāyaṁ,” cp.Vedic kāma,kam=Idg.*qā] to desire,cp.Lat.carus,Goth.hōrs,E whore.-- 1.Objective:pleasantness,pleasure-giving,an object of sensual enjoyment; -- 2.subjective:(a) enjoyment,pleasure on occasion of sense,(b) sense-desire.Buddhist commentators express 1 and 2 by kāmiyatī ti kāmo,and kametī ti kāmo Cpd.81,n.2.Kāma as sense-desire and enjoyment plus objects of the same is a collective name for all but the very higher or refined conditions of life.The kāma-bhava or --loka (worlds of sensedesire) includes 4 of the 5 modes (gati’s) of existence and part of the fifth or deva-loka.See Bhava.The term is not found analyzed till the later books of the Canon are consulted,thus,Nd1 1 distinguishes (1) vatthukāmā:desires relating to a base,i.e.physical organ or external object,and (2) kilesakāmā:desire considered subjectively.So also Nd2 202,quoted DhA.II,162; III,240; and very often as ubho kāmā.A more logical definition is given by Dhammapāla on Vv 11 (VvA.11).He classifies as follows:1.manāpiyā rūpādi-visayā.-- 2.chandarāga.-- 3.sabbasmiṁ lobha.-- 4.gāmadhamma.-- 5.hitacchanda.-- 6.serībhāva,i.e.k.concerned with (1) pleasant objects,(2) impulsive desire,(3) greed for anything,(4) sexual lust,(5) effort to do good,(6) self-determination.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:11 am
kstan1122 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:08 am
SN 44.10 With Ānanda – Ānandasutta sutta
When you highlighted the words of Vacchagotta in SN 44.10, you seem to overlook two things:

1. It was Vacchagatta who spoke these words (rather than the Buddha).

2. Vacchagotta never spoke the word "anatta".
Please re-read the post "viewtopic.php?p=489942&sid=027cfb51650e ... 78#p489942", those highlighted words some are spoken by Vacchagotta and some by the Buddha (The Buddha said "‘sabbe dhammā anattā’" and "‘ahuvā me nūna pubbe attā, so etarahi natthī’". It was not overlook.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:07 am

kstan1122 wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:55 am
The word "sīla" as the defined by the PTS Pali-English dictionary below, does have the mental action as "sīla".
Pali dictionary I think was compiled by Oxford University but not by the Buddha. The Buddha I recall taught Three Refuges rather than Four Refuges.
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:27 am
“kāma” is not just sexual activity
This appears irrelevant.
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:27 am
And “miccacara” (pronounced “michchāchāra”) means “misbehavior” in the sense of “going to extremes”. Thus the real meaning is to not to over-indulge in sense pleasures.
The suttas define it as follows:
He engages in sensual misconduct. He gets sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When the suttas refer to Divine (More Exquisite) Sensual Pleasures, it is not called "sensual misconduct":
Having practiced good conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, when their body breaks up, after death, they’d be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm, in the company of the gods of the Thirty-Three.

There they’d amuse themselves in the Garden of Delight, escorted by a band of nymphs, supplied and provided with the five kinds of heavenly sensual stimulation.

https://suttacentral.net/mn75/en/sujato
:alien:
kstan1122 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:08 am
SN 44.10 With Ānanda – Ānandasutta sutta... all things are anattā (without essences)
Anatta seems defined in SN 22.59, as follows:
This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

Lal
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:53 am

Those who do not know dasa akusala (ten immoral actions), please read AN 135 through 148. Their counter-parts or dasa kusala (10 moral actions) are in AN 179 through AN 192. That is only a partial list. Those are the basis of Buddha Dhamma. They are very short suttas just listing those actions.

The most important of dasa akusala is miccha ditthi (wrong views), which is at two levels: (1) having the 10 types of wrong views, and (2) not comprehending the real nature of the wider world of 31 realms (nature of anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, etc), normally stated as Tilakkhana (anicca,dukkha, anatta).
- Most of other dasa akusala are done spontaneously (without thinking) because one has miccha ditthi. If the sense temptation is high enough, the response is spontaneous.

If one has both types of miccha ditthi, one’s mind is totally covered (moha). The first step is to get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi by following the mundane eightfold path and getting to the avijja level (ignorance of the Four Noble Truths or equivalently Tilakkhana). Only after that one can start on the Noble Eightfold Path by starting to comprehend Tilakkhana. This was discussed in this forum at: "Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā Nov 11, 2018 (p. 44)".

This two-step process was also discussed in "Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)" on Oct 23, 2018 (p.42). Since I had not discussed the 10 types of miccha ditthi, I will do that today.

Ten Types of Miccha Ditthi

1. The 10 types of micchā ditthi or wrong views must be removed before one can even start on the mundane Eightfold Path; see, “Maha Chattarisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)“, which discusses that there are two Eightfold Paths: mundane and Noble.

- It is only then one’s mind is able to see the “bigger picture” and one could comprehend the Three Characteristics or Tilakkhanana (anicca, dukkha, anatta) of this world of 31 realms.
- Once one comprehends Tilakkhana to some extent, one becomes a Sōtapanna, gets in to the Noble Eightfold Path, and subsequently attains higher stages of Nibbāna.

2. But there are many people today who have at least some of the 10 types of micchā ditthi and believe that they are on the Noble Path. But it is clear from above that some may not even be on the mundane Path.

- Those 10 types of micchā ditthi cannot be given up just by saying to oneself that one believes in them. One’s mind must be convinced of it, and that conviction comes by learning Dhamma, true nature of this world.
- In this post we focus on the para lōka and gandhabba, because many Theravadins incorrectly assume that gandhabba is a Mahayana concept.

3. The 10 types of micchā ditthi are listed in many suttas, including the Maha Cattarisaka Sutta and Pathama Niraya Sagga Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya: AN 10.211): “Natthi dinnaṃ, natthi yiṭṭhaṃ, natthi hutaṃ, natthi sukata­dukka­ṭā­naṃ kammānaṃ phalaṃ vipāko, natthi ayaṃ loko, natthi parō lōkō, natthi mātā, natthi pitā, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā sammaggatā sammāpaṭipannā ye imañca lōkaṃ parañca lōkaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedentī’ti“. Translated, the wrong views are:

- Giving (dāna) has no merits
- being grateful and responding in kind (for what others have done for oneself) has no merits
- respecting and making offerings to those with higher virtues has no merits
- what we enjoy/suffer in this life is not due to kamma vipāka but they “just happen”
- this world does not exist
- para lōka or the world of gandhabba does not exist
- there is no special person as a mother
- there is no special person as a father
- there are no ōpapātika (instantaneous) births
- there are no samana brahmana (basically Ariyas or yogis) with abhinna powers who can see both this world (imanca lōkam) and para lōka (paranca lokam)

4. I have highlighted three types of micchā ditthi that are common (they are somewhat inter-related), but the one about the gandhabba is a micchā ditthi that even those who believe themselves to be “devout Buddhists” seem to have. They believe that the Buddha did not teach about gandhabba or the para lōka.

- There is Tiro­kuṭ­ṭa peta­vatthu in the Petavatthu in the Khuddaka Nikāya (KN). This has been translated to English (not very good), but one can get in idea: Tirokudda Kanda: Hungry Shades Outside the Walls.
- More suttas are discussed in the post at this forum: "Gandhabba State – Evidence from Tipitaka" on Oct 28, 2018 (p.43).

5. In many suttas, including Mahāsaccaka Sutta and Bodhirājakumāra Sutta the Buddha described how he saw human gandhabbas moving from one physical body to the next (in a single human bhava) with the Pubbenivāsānussati Ñāna on the night he attained the Buddhahood.

- While Ariyas with jhānās can attain both the Pubbenivāsānussati Ñāna (about previous human rebirths) and the Cutūpapāda Ñāna (about past births in all realms), other yogis can mostly acquire only the first one, i.e., they can see only their previous human births. Note that this is related to the last type of micchā ditthi, i.e., to believe that no such Ariyas or yogis exist.
- In the sutta links above, the Pāli version is correct but English and Sinhala translations are not correct, because there is no distinction made between the Pubbenivāsānussati Ñāna and the Cutūpapāda Ñāna. With the first Ñāna, one can see previous human births and the with the second, one can see previous births in all 31 realms.
- By the way, I try to provide sutta references at the SuttaCentral site. They have not only the Pāli version, but also translations in different languages. However, it must be kept in mind that some translations are incorrect, as mentioned above and also with the translations of anicca and anatta.

6. We also need to realize that para lōka or the world of gandhabba (of both humans and animals) is NOT a separate realm.

- In all other 29 realms, beings are born fully-formed instantaneously (ōpapātika) contrary to the 9th micchā ditthi on the list above. Those instantaneous births of course do not involve a mother’s womb, and one bhava means just one jāti (birth). For example, a deva or a brahma is born once instantaneously and then death occurs only when the kammic energy for the bhava is exhausted.
- The difference in the human and animal realms is that those dense physical bodies have lifetimes much shorter than the kammic energies for the two bhava; see, “Gandhabba – Only in Human and Animal Realms“.
- When a human or an animal dies — and if there is leftover kammic energy for the human or animal bhava — then a gandhabba comes out of the dead body and waits for suitable womb to be born (jāti) again in the same bhava (same realm).
- Thus, contrary to the widespread belief, gandhabba is not an “antarabhava” (in between bhava; “antara” means “in between”), but rather is in the same bhava. The confusion arises with not knowing the difference between bhava and jāti.

7. Until they find a suitable womb, those gandhabba are in “para lōka” or the netherworld, which co-exists with our world (but normally we cannot see those fine bodies of gandhabbas).

- Thus a human may be reborn many times before switching to another existence (deva, brahma, animal, preta, etc).
- This is why rebirth stories are common. It is the “human bhava” that is extremely hard to get as the Buddha explained. But once in the human bhava, one could be born many times as human; see, “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm“.
- The difference between bhava and jāti is explained in, “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein“. In this forum, it is discussed at, "Gati to Bhava to Jāti – Ours to Control Nov 15, 2018 (p. 47)".
- Also see, "Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception" in this forum on Nov 15, 2018 (p. 47)

8. So, I hope one can understand the fact that one still has micchā ditthi if one adamantly rejects the concept of gandhabba, or the concept of opapathika births.

- If one has any one of the ten micchā ditthi, one is not yet on even the mundane Eightfold Path; see, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart” and the post referred to in that chart, “What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma?“.

9. In order to get to the Sōtapanna stage, the first step is to make sure that one learns Dhamma and clear up any remaining doubts about those ten types of micchā ditthi.

- When one gets rid of all ten micchā ditthi, then one is truly on the mundane Eightfold Path.
- Then, at that point, one’s mind been cleansed to a stage where one can comprehend the Three Characteristics of Nature (Tilakkhana): anicca, dukkha, anatta. This is a deeper micchā ditthi, the second type described in the Maha Cattarisaka Sutta.
- When one comprehends the Tilakkhana to some extent, one attains the Sōtapanna stage of Nibbāna. That is when one gets to the Lokottara (Noble) Eightfold Path.
- Then, by following the Noble Eightfold Path one reaches the higher stages of Nibbāna, culminating at the Arahant stage.

10. As for the instantaneous births, instances of such ōpapātika births occur in many suttas. For example, in the Maha Parinibbana Sutta, the Buddha told Ven. Ananda about ōpapātika births of many people who died in a certain village: “..Nandā, ānanda, bhikkhunī pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā opapātikā tattha parinibbāyinī anāvattidhammā tasmā lokā..”

- As I mentioned, the translations are available in several languages in the above SuttaCentral link for the sutta. For example, the above verse is translated to English as: “..The nun Nandā, Ānanda, through the complete destruction of the five lower fetters has arisen spontaneously in the Brahmā worlds, and will attain Final Emancipation there, without returning from that world..”.
In Sinhala as: “..ආනන්දය, නන්දා නම් භික්ෂුණිය පස් ආකාර ඔරම්භාගිය (සත්වයන් කාමලොකයෙහි රඳවන) සංයෝජනයන් නැතිකිරීම නිසා ඔපපාතිකව (බ්‍රහ්මලොකයෙහි) උපන්නීය. ඒ (බ්‍රහ්ම) ලොකයෙන් වෙනස් නොවන ස්වභාව ඇත්තේ එහිදීම පිරිනිවන් පාන්නීය..”.
- However, please keep in mind that those SuttaCentral translations also can have errors (as is the case at most online sites as well as books), as I pointed out in #5 above.

11. Finally, it must be noted that there may be people who attain magga phala, but had never even heard about gandhabba in this life. If one comprehends the Tilakkhana, that is all needed.
- In such cases, they had not rejected the concept of a gandhabba. If someone explained the concept to them, they would accept it since they can see that it must be true.
- However, if one has heard about the concept of a gandhabba (and para lōka), instantaneous births, existence of other realms, and the existence of Ariyas or yogis who have the abilities to see such realms as well as para lōka, and one rejects them as “nonsense”, that is micchā ditthi.
- The only way to get rid of such micchā ditthi is to examine those concepts and convince oneself that those must be true.

As the Buddha declared just after attaining Enlightenment, "This Dhamma is deep. It has been never known in this world". See, the following two posts at this forum: "Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta" Oct 10, 2018 (P. 37) AND Oct 11, 2018 (p. 37) AND Oct 15, 2018 (p. 39), and "On the group of five (on the Five Ascetics attaining Sotapanna stage with Dhammacakkappavattana suatta) Text from the Vinaya Pitaka", Oct 12, 2018 (p. 38).
- It REQUIRES an understanding of the wider world of 31 realms with the para loka.

Trekmentor
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:16 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:03 pm

Lal,

I request you to shut down the Pure Dhamma website found at https://puredhamma.net/. If you want to spread Dhamma in its pure form there, here and in other places, I suggest you to take an approach where you do not go about adding extra ideas, extra concepts, extra theories, extra interpretations, but stick with what is explicitly written in Tipitaka.

Kamal Wickramanayake
http://www.trekmentor.com/kamal
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

imPure Dhamma - A Lunatic's Quest to Ruin Buddha's True Teachings

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:41 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:53 am
please read AN 135 through 148.
I think a streAM-enter would have a clear enough mind to post sutta references people can understand & the calmness & kindness to post links.
Lal wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:53 am
Their counter-parts or dasa kusala (10 moral actions) are in AN 179 through AN 192. That is only a partial list. Those are the basis of Buddha Dhamma. They are very short suttas just listing those actions.
Are you sure "skillful" ("kusala") equates with "moral" ("sila")? :shrug:
Lal wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:53 am
As the Buddha declared just after attaining Enlightenment, "This Dhamma is deep. It has been never known in this world". See, the following two posts at this forum: "Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta" Oct 10, 2018 (P. 37) AND Oct 11, 2018 (p. 37) AND Oct 15, 2018 (p. 39), and "On the group of five (on the Five Ascetics attaining Sotapanna stage with Dhammacakkappavattana suatta) Text from the Vinaya Pitaka", Oct 12, 2018 (p. 38). - It REQUIRES an understanding of the wider world of 31 realms with the para loka.
I think if it REQUIRES an understanding of the wider world of 31 realms with the para loka then I think the Buddha would have taught the wider world of 31 realms with the para loka in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. But the Buddha did not. According to MN 117, paraloka is worldly dhamma, defiled with fermentation and leading to acquisitions. Based on MN 117, your personal idea that paraloka is required for enlightenment appears to be a wrong understanding. Since Nibbana is not loka & not paraloka, obviously paraloka is not required to realise Nibbana.
And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously arisen beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the other after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Lal
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:05 pm

“I think a streAM-enter would have a clear enough mind to post sutta references people can understand & the calmness & kindness to post links.”

Since advanced suttas are being in these forums, I had assumed that you all have a basic understanding of dasa akusala. I just wanted to give the references.
- Per AN 10.180, dasa akusala are: taking a life, stealing, abusing sense pleasures, speaking untruth (making Dhamma to be adhamma and vice versa), slandering, harsh speech, gossiping, greed, ill-will, wrong views.
- However, it is those wrong views that are most important. Even though most people know what dasa akusala are, they do not realize the real meaning of wrong views. That is why I just explained those wrong views.

“I think if it REQUIRES an understanding of the wider world of 31 realms with the para loka then I think the Buddha would have taught the wider world of 31 realms with the para loka in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. But the Buddha did not.”

Yes. Most of the higher realms are mentioned in the sutta. Other realms are referred to in other suttas. Please read any English translation of the sutta. Here is a part of the Sutta Central translation:
"..And when the Wheel of the Dhamma had been set in motion by the Blessed One, the earth-dwelling devas raised a cry: “At Baraṇasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, this unsurpassed Wheel of the Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped by any ascetic or brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world.” Having heard the cry of the earth-dwelling devas, the devas of the realm of the Four Great Kings raised a cry: “At Baraṇasi … this unsurpassed Wheel of the Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped … by anyone in the world.” Having heard the cry of the devas of the realm of the Four Great Kings, the Tavatiṃsa devas … the Yama devas … the Tusita devas … the Nimmanarati devas … the Paranimmitavasavatti devas … the devas of Brahma’s company raised a cry: “At Baraṇasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, this unsurpassed Wheel of the Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped by any ascetic or brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world.”

- Most English translations do not give a full account, possibly because the translators do not believe that those devas and brahmas even exist. The sutta actually names 6 deva realms and 15 out of 16 rupi Brahma realms.
- So, many devas and brahmas from those realms were present to hear that discourse.
- This is a major problem we have today. Translators only discuss what they are comfortable with, from a given sutta. However, we cannot see the "whole picture" until we take ALL SUTTAS seriously in their ENTIRETY.
- Many even question the rebirth process. Buddhism without rebirth (and 31 realms) is an oxymoron (like "open secret" or "definitely maybe"), i.e., it does not make complete sense.
- Of course one can be a "secular Buddhist" and just live a "mundane moral life". That is not bad at all. But if one wants to understand the deeper message of the Buddha, that is about stopping suffering in the rebirth process. That is why in the same first sutta, the Buddha said: "This is my last birth. There is no more rebirth and no more suffering". The real suffering that the Buddha was concerned with was the suffering in the four lowest realms (apayas), of which the animal realm is one. Yes. One can be born an animal, if one does immoral deeds (akusala kamma).
- We all have done immoral deeds in past lives (if not in this life). But we can overcome those (i.e., stop their vipaka from coming to fruition) by attaining magga phala (stages of Nibbana). That is the main focus of Buddha Dhamma.

“Are you sure "skillful" ("kusala") equates with "moral" ("sila")?”

I will write a post explaining what "sila" and "kusala" are. Kusala is basically abstaining from the dasa akusala. When one does that it can be said that one lives a moral life.
- However, until one gets rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi, it is not "ariyakanta sila" or the sila that cannot broken. This needs more explanation and I will try to do that soon.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:37 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:05 pm
- Per AN 10.180, dasa akusala are: taking a life, stealing, abusing sense pleasures, speaking untruth (making Dhamma to be adhamma and vice versa), slandering, harsh speech, gossiping, greed, ill-will, wrong views.
I didn't notice the word "sila" in the Pali in AN 10.180.
Lal wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:05 pm
"..And when the Wheel of the Dhamma had been set in motion by the Blessed One, the earth-dwelling devas raised a cry: “At Baraṇasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, this unsurpassed Wheel of the Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped by any ascetic or brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world.” Having heard the cry of the earth-dwelling devas, the devas of the realm of the Four Great Kings raised a cry: “At Baraṇasi … this unsurpassed Wheel of the Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped … by anyone in the world.” Having heard the cry of the devas of the realm of the Four Great Kings, the Tavatiṃsa devas … the Yama devas … the Tusita devas … the Nimmanarati devas … the Paranimmitavasavatti devas … the devas of Brahma’s company raised a cry: “At Baraṇasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, this unsurpassed Wheel of the Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped by any ascetic or brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world.”
Irrelevant. I once paid money with around 15,000 other people to listen to the Dalai Lama. That we were listening to him was not related to what he was talking about. Also, afterwards, I wanted my money back (because HHDL did not talk about what he advertised he would talk about).
Lal wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:05 pm
I will write a post explaining what "sila" and "kusala" are. Kusala is basically abstaining from the dasa akusala. When one does that it can be said that one lives a moral life.
At this stage, I think you are plainly wrong. The word "kusala" is often used in the suttas for mental dhammas and does not imply morality. I think this obsession with morality is sīlabbata-parāmāsa and is evidence you are not a stream-enterer.

For example, Right Effort includes the word kusala:
And what is right effort?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo?

It’s when a mendicant generates enthusiasm, tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that bad, unskillful qualities don’t arise.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu anuppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ anuppādāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati,

They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen are given up.
uppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ pahānāya chandaṃ janeti … pe …

They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have not arisen do arise.
anuppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ uppādāya chandaṃ janeti … pe …

They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have arisen remain, are not lost, but increase, mature, and are fulfilled by development.
uppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ ṭhitiyā asammosāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā chandaṃ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati—

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/en/sujato
Yet Right Effort does not exclusively fall within the Training of Sila (Morality):
"There are these three trainings. Which three? The training in heightened virtue, the training in heightened mind, the training in heightened discernment.

"And what is the training in heightened virtue? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Pāṭimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
If an unwholesome thought momentarily arises in my mind; where I do not act upon that thought; where I do not harm another with that thought; then it is not Immorality. In my opinion, Immorality only is about actions of body & speech. :geek:

Trekmentor
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:16 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:15 am

Lal,

I end asking you to shut down the Pure Dhamma website found at https://puredhamma.net/.

Kamal Wickramanayake
http://www.trekmentor.com/kamal
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

imPure Dhamma - A Lunatic's Quest to Ruin Buddha's True Teachings

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests