The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:55 pm

@budo:
I do see that under the General Theravāda discussion, there are two long threads: “The great rebirth debate” and “the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread”.
So, what I am saying is that if one believes in true Buddha Dhamma, how can one not even realize what is clearly stated in the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta?

In recent posts, I discussed the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta (see Oct 10 and Oct 11 entries on p. 37), and pointed out some key information that can be extracted from the sutta: (1) That the suffering that the Buddha talked about was the suffering associated with the rebirth process; he clearly stated that he stopped his future suffering by stopping the rebirth process, (2) That just by reciting a sutta or reading a word-by-word translation of a sutta like that one, does not do any good. It took some of five ascetics several days of continued discussion with the Buddha to comprehend the material embedded in the sutta and attain the Sotapanna stage.

What is the point in debating deep suttas, if one does not even know that Nibbana means stopping the rebirth process? For that, one must first believe in the rebirth process, isn’t it? The Tipitaka is geared towards helping one attain Nibbana. Of course, there are some suttas that provide information on how to live a moral life. But what I see being discussed here are mostly deep suttas tailored to attain Nibbana.

Now, I am not asking anyone to believe in the rebirth process. But what I am saying is that if one is serious about Buddha Dhamma, one should first eliminate such doubts. And that CANNOT be done by trying to understand deep suttas. One should instead study some basic suttas like the Kalama sutta, where one first realizes that one should stay away from dasa akusala, and get rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi. I have not even a discussion on the 10 types of mica ditthi or dasa akusala.

I have actually explained many things at this thread: vinnana, sanna, paticca samuppada, etc. I recently explained in detail the verse in the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta about the Fist Noble Truth on Suffering (see Oct 10 and Oct 11 entries on p. 37). I made a summary of topics that I had discussed before that on Oct. 6 (p. 36), and that is only a partial list.

No one has pointed out any problems with those. And those need to be understood well, before one can start discussing deep suttas. For example, translating “vinnana” as just consciousness is a non-starter.

I have discussed many more things at puredhamma.net. So, anyone interested can go to my website and read more details. There is a “Search” box on the top right that can be used to find relevant posts. If you have a particular question, please ask here and I can refer to relevant posts at puredhamma.net (or give the answer here).

Anyone is welcome point out any problems with what I have written here or at my website. But PLEASE do not misquote me, as rightviewftw did.

@rightviewftw:

I never said that Buddha had fear, perplexity, or worry, or anything like that. Please copy and paste from what I have written if I did say so (just that sentence).
I just QUOTED from the Vinaya Pitaka that just after the Enlightenment, it occurred to the Buddha whether the humans will be able to comprehend his new found deep Dhamma. Of course, after surveying the minds of the living beings, he did realize that that were enough who could.

I have written so much at this tread. Is that all you can find fault with? And there is nothing wrong there either. The Buddha was concerned about whether the humans will be able to grasp his deep Dhamma. That is in the Vinaya Pitaka, as I quoted.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:54 pm

Lal,

One of the difficulties that you appear to be experiencing is that you are what might be called a "single issue poster" on an internet forum. Here's your first post on DW:
I have been asked by Ven. Sudithadeera (who is a disciple of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero) to join this discussion group. I have a website: https://puredhamma.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that is built on the material that I learned from the Waharaka Thero. I would be happy to provide my input to any specific questions as well.
With metta, Lal
Everything you post is either promoting or defending Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero. Of course, there's nothing at all wrong with that, and your presence here is valued. But on a general Theravadan internet forum, you will get a variety of different responses to your approach. Some people will be interested to hear of new ideas. Others will already have made up their minds about their style or tradition of practice and will either ignore you, or criticise you. Others, particularly those raised in a Western intellectual milieu which values debate, evidence, and critical evaluation, will want to explore the value of your ideas by challenging them. That's the culture.

Now, you might not like that, but it's how internet forums work. You are not going to change the culture here. To the extent that anyone reads your posts at all, you are going to have to accept that some people will challenge what you claim, and some will do it robustly.

Of course, you have that same freedom to deal with their criticisms and approaches. You can ignore them, or you can argue with them, within the ToS. But I suggest that treating people as if they are stupid, or that they are wasting their time or that they are condemned to misunderstand the Buddha's teachings unless they agree with your approach, is not the best tactic here. You are welcome to try it, of course, but on DW as on other internet forums it tends to look like a disdainful retreat into self-righteousness. As a wise man once said, "If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the bee-hive". It's for everyone's welfare and happiness, isn't it?

(Apologies for going public with this, but you appear to have not picked up an earlier PM I sent you.)

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:51 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:55 pm
Anyone is welcome point out any problems with what I have written here or at my website. But PLEASE do not misquote me, as rightviewftw did.

@rightviewftw:

I never said that Buddha had fear, perplexity, or worry, or anything like that. Please copy and paste from what I have written if I did say so (just that sentence).
I just QUOTED from the Vinaya Pitaka that just after the Enlightenment, it occurred to the Buddha whether the humans will be able to comprehend his new found deep Dhamma. Of course, after surveying the minds of the living beings, he did realize that that were enough who could.

I have written so much at this tread. Is that all you can find fault with? And there is nothing wrong there either. The Buddha was concerned about whether the humans will be able to grasp his deep Dhamma. That is in the Vinaya Pitaka, as I quoted.
If you don't think that a Buddha can worry why would you write that?
Lal wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:05 pm
- As I pointed out, the Buddha worried about how many people will be able to understand his new found Dhamma.
When i called you out on this you proceeded to defend the statement with that quote from Brahma Invitation or was it from Vinaya, either way it is a faulty translation and if you don't think so then you are welcome to attempt to prove it.

It is not all i find fault with but you have dismissed all other points raised. Vinnana Anidassanam ie you might think that you have sufficiently addressed it but i doubt anybody will agree with you on that.
I presented you with a case for why you were wrong viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=150#p479036
you basically dismissed it;
Lal wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:04 pm
@rightviewftw:

Maybe we should start at a bit simpler level. We don't want get tangled up in fancy terms and not make any progress in understanding. ...
You then proceeded to discuss fancy terms with Dhammanando and others... Afaik no conclusion was ever reached in those discussions.

As far as i am concerned i just wasted time forming that argument as you did not address it and thus neither disproved me nor defended your position.

I invite you to defend your take on Vinnana Anidassana or disproving what i presented based on the Sutta Pitaka alone because what i presented was imho a coherent argument contradicting your interpretation and fully supported by the Sutta.

There are more things i don't agree with such as the method for re-attainment of fruition by reciting that text as you wrote on your website but we can leave it for now.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by StormBorn » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:20 am

Lal wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:55 pm
I have written so much at this tread. Is that all you can find fault with? And there is nothing wrong there either.
The Emperor's New Cloths...
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“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

kstan1122
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am

It is unfortunate to see that people with good ethic still do not understand what is dasa akusala (ten immoral actions).

Be reminded that the following are the dasa akusala (ten immoral actions) :
Three kāya sankhāra (immoral acts done with the body):
  • Pānātipātā (killing)
  • Adinnādānā (taking what is not given)
  • Kāmesu miccācārā (not just sexual misconduct, but also excessive of sense pleasures)
Four vaci sankhāra (immoral acts done with speech):
  • Musāvāda (Lying)
  • Pisunāvācā (slandering)
  • Parusāvācā (harsh speech)
  • Sampappalāpā (frivolous talk)
Three mano sankhāra (immoral acts done with the mind):
  • Abhijjā (covetousness; greed for other’s belongings)
  • Vyāpāda (ill-will, hatred)
  • Miccā Ditthi (wrong views)

Writing hash words or picture to humilate another are also a form of immoral actions.

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:59 am

kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am
  • Kāmesu miccācārā (not just sexual misconduct, but also excessive of sense pleasures)
is there a list?

kstan1122
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:27 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:59 am
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am
  • Kāmesu miccācārā (not just sexual misconduct, but also excessive of sense pleasures)
is there a list?
Kāmesu miccācārā is commonly translated as “avoiding sexual misconduct”. But “kāma” is not just sexual activity; “kāma” includes all sense pleasures that are available in the kama loka. And “miccacara” (pronounced “michchāchāra”) means “misbehavior” in the sense of “going to extremes”. Thus the real meaning is to not to over-indulge in sense pleasures.
  • In fact, excessive drinking, gambling etc are included in this precept.
  • We have to use all our five physical senses to live in this world. But we need to have restraints so that we do not abuse them to the extent that we will hurt ourselves or others. Even a simple example of over-eating leads to health problems, which will hurt not only oneself but the whole family.

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:12 pm

@Sam Vara: Sorry. I did not see your PM earlier.

Sam Vara said:
Everything you post is either promoting or defending Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero.
That is not correct. Everything I post is either promoting or defending Buddha Dhamma. I am just grateful to Waharaka Thero for pointing me in the right direction. Of course, I have not found anything wrong with what Waharaka Thero had said in his desanas when compared to Tipitaka. He just pointed out some errors in the interpretation of several key Pali words. Each person can come to his/her own conclusions by examining the analysis below (hopefully with an open mind).

Yes. It is good to hear different opinions from everyone. But I believe this is not a philosophy forum, where it may not be possible to converge on a “final truth”. It is possible to converge on a “final truth” in Buddha Dhamma, and that should be the goal.
- Now, that “final truth” may not be agreed upon by ALL. Some people will never be able to understand the deep Dhamma. Even during the time of Buddha there were many who could not grasp it, even if they listened to the Buddha many, many times.
- Even though we may not be able to agree on the “final truth”, there should be at least some baseline standards. This is what I have been trying to get across.

Let me go through my logic for the last time.

We only have the Tipitaka as the only reliable source of Buddha’s teachings. While it is possible that some parts could have changed over the years, there is a way to check that: Look for inconsistencies within the Tipitaka.
-I have found none so far. If anyone has found something inconsistent, please let me know.
- This is how modern science works too. Until a discrepancy is found, we can just use the Tipitaka as it is. No need to discuss various commentaries by many, which I have also shown to be contradictory the Tipitaka.

Now, the next step is to really do a thorough analysis of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It was the first instance of the Buddha explaining his “previously unknown Dhamma, that is hard to comprehend”.
-We know that the five ascetics attained the Sotapanna stage with that. So, enough material is embedded in the summary that we call Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, for one to get to the Sotapanna stage. This sutta is able to provide the fundamental aspects of Buddha Dhamma.
-I have of course not done a thorough analysis of the sutta. That will take a whole book.

However, there are certain key features we can extract from it, as I pointed out in an earlier post. Those are the following:

After explaining the four Noble Truths, the Buddha says in the middle of the sutta: "Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti."

Translated: "The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘unshakable is the liberation of my mind. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence.’”
- That statement says the outcome of the discovery of that knowledge. The solution to future suffering. It is the ending of the rebirth process.
- So, my point is that this statement by itself explains that: (i) the Buddha was focused on stopping suffering in future lives (some of which in lower realms could be unimaginably harsh). (ii) there is no "safe" rebirth anywhere in this world, whether it is a human, deva, or a brahma realm.

I will just reproduce a previous post on more on the sutta:

Continuing from the previous post on the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

1. Now, let us look at how the Buddha summarized the First Noble Truth about suffering in that sutta.

Idam kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkham ariyasaccam:

jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhāṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ—saṃkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā.


Translated: Bhikkhus, What is the Noble Truth of Suffering?

"Birth is suffering, getting old is suffering, getting sick is suffering, dying is suffering. Having to associate with things that one does not like is suffering and having to separate from those things one likes is suffering. If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering - Doing worldly activities (samkittena) to get all those things one craves for (pancupadanakkhandha) is suffering.

There are four sections in that verse. I have highlighted alternating sections to make it clear.

2. The first part in bold indicates what we consider to be forms of suffering: Birth, getting old, getting sick, and dying.

- We may not remember, but birth is a traumatic event, just like the dying moment. Coming out of the birth canal is a traumatic event for both the mother and the baby.
- We do not like to experience those four things. If we have to experience them, that is suffering.
- What we WOULD LIKE is to stay young, not get old, not get sick, and not to die ever. If we can have those conditions fulfilled we will be forever happy.

3. That is what the second part (not in bold) says.

- If we can be born instantaneously at a young age (say, 15 to 25 years), and stay at that age without getting old or sick and never die, that is what we would like. But no matter how much we would like to associated with such a life, we will NEVER get it.
- Instead we have to suffer at birth, when getting old, when getting sick, and finally when dying. There is no way to dissociate from those four things that we do not like.
- But that is not the end of it. We will keep doing this over and over in the rebirth cycle. Furthermore, things can get much worse in the lowest four realms, including the animal realm.
- This is why the Buddha stated that the culmination of all his efforts to the ending of the suffering in the rebirth process, when stated "this would be my last birth": No more suffering!

4. Both those parts are combined in to one succinct statement in the third part: "Yampiccam nalabhati tampi dukkham".

"Yampiccam nalabhati tampi dukkham" is actually a shortened version of the verse (that rhymes).
The full sentence is "Yam pi iccam na labhati tam pi dukkham".

- "Yam pi iccam" means "whatever is craved for". "Na labhati" means "not getting". "tam pi dukkham" means "that leads to suffering".
- Therefore, that verse simply says: “If one does not get what one craves or likes, that leads to suffering”.
- This is a more general statement, and applies in any situation. The more one craves something, the more suffering one will endure at the end. But this requires a lot of discussion.

5. "Yampiccam nalabhati tampi dukkham" is the most important verse in the first sutta delivered by the Buddha, Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It provides the key to understanding the Buddha's message, and led to attaining of the Sotapanna stage by the five ascetics.

- It should be noted that icca and iccha (ඉච්ච and ඉච්ඡ in Sinhala) are used interchangeably in the Tipitaka under different suttas. The word “iccha” with the emphasis on the last syllable is used to indicated “strong icca” or “strong attachment”.
- Not getting what one desires or craves is the opposite of "icca" or "na icca" or "anicca". This is the same way that "na ā­gami" becomes "Anā­gā­mi". These are Pali sandhi rules.
- The intrinsic nature of this world is "anicca", i.e., we will never get what we crave for, and thus at the end (at least at death) we will leave all this behind and suffer, that is dukkha.

6. As you can see, one single verse itself takes a lot of explaining. I just don't have time to go into more detail. I hope that at least some people will get the basic idea.

- The last part of the verse, "saṃkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā" will take much more explaining. One needs to understand the five khandhas (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) first, in order to even begin to understand this part.
- Note that upadana is related closely to craving. Upadana means "pulling closer in one's mind due to craving".
- Until one sees this anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world, one will be trapped in the suffering-filled rebirth process.

7. The other key point: Translating some key verses word-by-word can lead to bad unintended consequences. This is because many key Pali words CANNOT be translated as one English word.

- The five ascetics were able to attain the Sotapanna stage by understanding the detailed description of the material embedded in this sutta. That holds true today.
- By the way, there is nothing in this sutta that says impermanence leads to suffering. The key words are icca and anicca.
- Anicca is not the same as Sanskrit "anitya" (which does mean impermanence), which in Pali is "aniyata" or "addhuvan". None of those three words appear in this sutta. In fact, I don't think the word "anicca" appears directly in this sutta either; of course, it appears in many other suttas in the same context. But the word "anitya" does not appear in a single sutta in the Tipitaka; "aniyata" and "addhuvan" appear in a few suttas to actually indicate impermanence in other contexts. For example, "jeevitam aniyatam, maranam niyatam".
- The concept is explained with the word "icca" (craving) in this sutta, as I explained above.
That is the end of that discussion.

I have also pointed out that there is a great harm in translating suttas word-by-word. This is because key Pali words like anicca, vinnana, sanna, DO NOT have corresponding SINGLE English words. It is better to understand their meanings and just use the same words.

Until these basic premises are understood, this forum will appear to be more like a philosophy forum, or at best a forum on “Secular Buddhism”. There is nothing wrong with that. There are those who declare openly that they do not believe in rebirth, and thus do not believe that Nibbana means stopping the rebirth process. They call themselves “Secular Buddhists”. I think that is a more honest approach. In fact, that is the way one should initially approach Buddha Dhamma. The Buddha himself explained, in the Maha Cattarisaka sutta, that there are two eightfold paths: the mundane eightfold path where one lives a moral life and gets rid of the 10 types of mica ditthi. Then one gets on the lokottara path, when one is able to start comprehending deeper aspects, and make an effort to attain Nibbana (release from future suffering in the rebirth process).

Anyway, that is what I have to say. There is no need to respond or me to rebut. I have stated these enough times. No point in going through it again.

May everyone find the true Dhamma and attain Nibbana!

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:46 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:12 pm
@Sam Vara: Sorry. I did not see your PM earlier.

Sam Vara said:
Everything you post is either promoting or defending Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero.
That is not correct. Everything I post is either promoting or defending Buddha Dhamma. I am just grateful to Waharaka Thero for pointing me in the right direction. Of course, I have not found anything wrong with what Waharaka Thero had said in his desanas when compared to Tipitaka. He just pointed out some errors in the interpretation of several key Pali words.
This makes my point very neatly. Your claim is that Waharaka Thero is, to the best of your knowledge, an infallible and useful interpreter of the Buddha Dhamma. What you do is to claim that your version of Buddha Dhamma is correct; and that others which markedly differ from your view are to be anathematised. This means that objections to your claims are not addressed by an attempt to understand them: they are often met with a repetition of your original point, or a claim that the person making the objection is deluded or otherwise misled by their tradition. As I said earlier, you are welcome to take this approach, but you might want to ask yourself whether it shows many signs of being successful.
Yes. It is good to hear different opinions from everyone. But I believe this is not a philosophy forum, where it may not be possible to converge on a “final truth”. It is possible to converge on a “final truth” in Buddha Dhamma, and that should be the goal.
Maybe. But there are many people who do not subscribe to the view that there is a "final truth in Buddha Dhamma". And there are many more who believe that there is a final truth, but that you don't know what it is. And there are plenty who believe that philosophical investigation, methodology, or insight are perfectly compatible with the search for the truth of Buddha Dhamma. All are free to post here. If you call them misguided or say they are wasting their time, how do you think they will respond?
- Now, that “final truth” may not be agreed upon by ALL. Some people will never be able to understand the deep Dhamma. Even during the time of Buddha there were many who could not grasp it, even if they listened to the Buddha many, many times.
Do you ever speculate that you yourself might be one of those people who will never be able to understand the deep Dhamma? If you allow that you might be in that category, then you might want to tone down your righteous condemnation of others. If, on the other hand, you are 100% convinced that your version of the Dhamma is the "real" one, then that might give you an insight into how other people also think. They might be just as convinced as you are.
- Even though we may not be able to agree on the “final truth”, there should be at least some baseline standards. This is what I have been trying to get across.
There are baseline standards in operation here. They are the ToS. Beyond that, setting up your own standards of truth and berating people because they don't obey your rules provides the grim satisfaction of self-righteousness, but not much else.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:30 pm

kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:27 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:59 am
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am
  • Kāmesu miccācārā (not just sexual misconduct, but also excessive of sense pleasures)
is there a list?
Kāmesu miccācārā is commonly translated as “avoiding sexual misconduct”. But “kāma” is not just sexual activity; “kāma” includes all sense pleasures that are available in the kama loka. And “miccacara” (pronounced “michchāchāra”) means “misbehavior” in the sense of “going to extremes”. Thus the real meaning is to not to over-indulge in sense pleasures.
  • In fact, excessive drinking, gambling etc are included in this precept.
  • We have to use all our five physical senses to live in this world. But we need to have restraints so that we do not abuse them to the extent that we will hurt ourselves or others. Even a simple example of over-eating leads to health problems, which will hurt not only oneself but the whole family.
Strange that it is not mentioned in the AN 10.176 where a definition is provided;
Unskillful Bodily Action

"And how is one made impure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person takes life, is a hunter, bloody-handed, devoted to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. He takes what is not given. He takes, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. He engages in sensual misconduct. He gets sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made impure in three ways by bodily action.
It seems like the case you are making is that in a similar way that Violence and Torture is not included in any precept the wording of the third precept goes to show that the precepts are not all encompassing but rather show the extremes.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by budo » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:47 pm

Ryan95227 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:19 pm

It's unfortunate really. When I read about his satipatthana and anicca post it really made sense and helped me see what buddhism is all about. However during this huge debate i can just see that he is not really awakened or anything. He has strong pride, self view, and delusion.
In some cases you should shoot the messenger, and not the person sending the message. I'd like to learn more about Waharaka Thero's interpretation of the dhamma, it's just that I don't speak his language and the person delivering his message isn't really doing it service..

Maybe SarathW can translate it.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by StormBorn » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:04 am

kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am
It is unfortunate to see that people with good ethic still do not understand what is dasa akusala (ten immoral actions).

Be reminded that the following are the dasa akusala (ten immoral actions) :
Three kāya sankhāra (immoral acts done with the body):
...
How those who don't understand dasa akusala considered to be with good ethics? :smile:

Anyway, good that you posted the list of dasa akusala as the OP's posts repeatedly appeared to be falling under several of them.
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:27 am
Kāmesu miccācārā is commonly translated as “avoiding sexual misconduct”. But “kāma” is not just sexual activity; “kāma” includes all sense pleasures that are available in the kama loka. And “miccacara” (pronounced “michchāchāra”) means “misbehavior” in the sense of “going to extremes”. Thus the real meaning is to not to over-indulge in sense pleasures.
  • In fact, excessive drinking, gambling etc are included in this precept.
  • We have to use all our five physical senses to live in this world. But we need to have restraints so that we do not abuse them to the extent that we will hurt ourselves or others. Even a simple example of over-eating leads to health problems, which will hurt not only oneself but the whole family.
So, you are saying non-excessive drinking and gambling are OK? Where the line of excessiveness is drawn?

Thanks.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by kstan1122 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:18 am

StormBorn wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:04 am

So, you are saying non-excessive drinking and gambling are OK? Where the line of excessiveness is drawn?

Thanks.
That is the leeway given to people who still like that little bit of sense pleasures.

Any moral person will know that any form of drinking, gambling, etc. that involve sense pleasures is an immoral actions.

Much metta.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by StormBorn » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:35 am

StormBorn wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:04 am
Anyway, good that you posted the list of dasa akusala as the OP's posts repeatedly appeared to be falling under several of them.
Apologies to @retrofuturist. I thought @Lal was the OP of this thread.
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by budo » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:39 am

Lal wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:12 pm
@Sam Vara: Sorry. I did not see your PM earlier.

Sam Vara said:
Everything you post is either promoting or defending Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero.
That is not correct. Everything I post is either promoting or defending Buddha Dhamma. I am just grateful to Waharaka Thero for pointing me in the right direction. Of course, I have not found anything wrong with what Waharaka Thero had said in his desanas when compared to Tipitaka. He just pointed out some errors in the interpretation of several key Pali words. Each person can come to his/her own conclusions by examining the analysis below (hopefully with an open mind).

Yes. It is good to hear different opinions from everyone. But I believe this is not a philosophy forum, where it may not be possible to converge on a “final truth”. It is possible to converge on a “final truth” in Buddha Dhamma, and that should be the goal.
- Now, that “final truth” may not be agreed upon by ALL. Some people will never be able to understand the deep Dhamma. Even during the time of Buddha there were many who could not grasp it, even if they listened to the Buddha many, many times.
- Even though we may not be able to agree on the “final truth”, there should be at least some baseline standards. This is what I have been trying to get across.

Let me go through my logic for the last time.

We only have the Tipitaka as the only reliable source of Buddha’s teachings. While it is possible that some parts could have changed over the years, there is a way to check that: Look for inconsistencies within the Tipitaka.
-I have found none so far. If anyone has found something inconsistent, please let me know.
- This is how modern science works too. Until a discrepancy is found, we can just use the Tipitaka as it is. No need to discuss various commentaries by many, which I have also shown to be contradictory the Tipitaka.

Now, the next step is to really do a thorough analysis of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It was the first instance of the Buddha explaining his “previously unknown Dhamma, that is hard to comprehend”.
-We know that the five ascetics attained the Sotapanna stage with that. So, enough material is embedded in the summary that we call Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, for one to get to the Sotapanna stage. This sutta is able to provide the fundamental aspects of Buddha Dhamma.
-I have of course not done a thorough analysis of the sutta. That will take a whole book.

However, there are certain key features we can extract from it, as I pointed out in an earlier post. Those are the following:

After explaining the four Noble Truths, the Buddha says in the middle of the sutta: "Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti."

Translated: "The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘unshakable is the liberation of my mind. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence.’”
- That statement says the outcome of the discovery of that knowledge. The solution to future suffering. It is the ending of the rebirth process.
- So, my point is that this statement by itself explains that: (i) the Buddha was focused on stopping suffering in future lives (some of which in lower realms could be unimaginably harsh). (ii) there is no "safe" rebirth anywhere in this world, whether it is a human, deva, or a brahma realm.

I will just reproduce a previous post on more on the sutta:

Continuing from the previous post on the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

1. Now, let us look at how the Buddha summarized the First Noble Truth about suffering in that sutta.

Idam kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkham ariyasaccam:

jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhāṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ—saṃkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā.


Translated: Bhikkhus, What is the Noble Truth of Suffering?

"Birth is suffering, getting old is suffering, getting sick is suffering, dying is suffering. Having to associate with things that one does not like is suffering and having to separate from those things one likes is suffering. If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering - Doing worldly activities (samkittena) to get all those things one craves for (pancupadanakkhandha) is suffering.

There are four sections in that verse. I have highlighted alternating sections to make it clear.

2. The first part in bold indicates what we consider to be forms of suffering: Birth, getting old, getting sick, and dying.

- We may not remember, but birth is a traumatic event, just like the dying moment. Coming out of the birth canal is a traumatic event for both the mother and the baby.
- We do not like to experience those four things. If we have to experience them, that is suffering.
- What we WOULD LIKE is to stay young, not get old, not get sick, and not to die ever. If we can have those conditions fulfilled we will be forever happy.

3. That is what the second part (not in bold) says.

- If we can be born instantaneously at a young age (say, 15 to 25 years), and stay at that age without getting old or sick and never die, that is what we would like. But no matter how much we would like to associated with such a life, we will NEVER get it.
- Instead we have to suffer at birth, when getting old, when getting sick, and finally when dying. There is no way to dissociate from those four things that we do not like.
- But that is not the end of it. We will keep doing this over and over in the rebirth cycle. Furthermore, things can get much worse in the lowest four realms, including the animal realm.
- This is why the Buddha stated that the culmination of all his efforts to the ending of the suffering in the rebirth process, when stated "this would be my last birth": No more suffering!

4. Both those parts are combined in to one succinct statement in the third part: "Yampiccam nalabhati tampi dukkham".

"Yampiccam nalabhati tampi dukkham" is actually a shortened version of the verse (that rhymes).
The full sentence is "Yam pi iccam na labhati tam pi dukkham".

- "Yam pi iccam" means "whatever is craved for". "Na labhati" means "not getting". "tam pi dukkham" means "that leads to suffering".
- Therefore, that verse simply says: “If one does not get what one craves or likes, that leads to suffering”.
- This is a more general statement, and applies in any situation. The more one craves something, the more suffering one will endure at the end. But this requires a lot of discussion.

5. "Yampiccam nalabhati tampi dukkham" is the most important verse in the first sutta delivered by the Buddha, Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It provides the key to understanding the Buddha's message, and led to attaining of the Sotapanna stage by the five ascetics.

- It should be noted that icca and iccha (ඉච්ච and ඉච්ඡ in Sinhala) are used interchangeably in the Tipitaka under different suttas. The word “iccha” with the emphasis on the last syllable is used to indicated “strong icca” or “strong attachment”.
- Not getting what one desires or craves is the opposite of "icca" or "na icca" or "anicca". This is the same way that "na ā­gami" becomes "Anā­gā­mi". These are Pali sandhi rules.
- The intrinsic nature of this world is "anicca", i.e., we will never get what we crave for, and thus at the end (at least at death) we will leave all this behind and suffer, that is dukkha.

6. As you can see, one single verse itself takes a lot of explaining. I just don't have time to go into more detail. I hope that at least some people will get the basic idea.

- The last part of the verse, "saṃkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā" will take much more explaining. One needs to understand the five khandhas (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) first, in order to even begin to understand this part.
- Note that upadana is related closely to craving. Upadana means "pulling closer in one's mind due to craving".
- Until one sees this anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world, one will be trapped in the suffering-filled rebirth process.

7. The other key point: Translating some key verses word-by-word can lead to bad unintended consequences. This is because many key Pali words CANNOT be translated as one English word.

- The five ascetics were able to attain the Sotapanna stage by understanding the detailed description of the material embedded in this sutta. That holds true today.
- By the way, there is nothing in this sutta that says impermanence leads to suffering. The key words are icca and anicca.
- Anicca is not the same as Sanskrit "anitya" (which does mean impermanence), which in Pali is "aniyata" or "addhuvan". None of those three words appear in this sutta. In fact, I don't think the word "anicca" appears directly in this sutta either; of course, it appears in many other suttas in the same context. But the word "anitya" does not appear in a single sutta in the Tipitaka; "aniyata" and "addhuvan" appear in a few suttas to actually indicate impermanence in other contexts. For example, "jeevitam aniyatam, maranam niyatam".
- The concept is explained with the word "icca" (craving) in this sutta, as I explained above.
That is the end of that discussion.

I have also pointed out that there is a great harm in translating suttas word-by-word. This is because key Pali words like anicca, vinnana, sanna, DO NOT have corresponding SINGLE English words. It is better to understand their meanings and just use the same words.

Until these basic premises are understood, this forum will appear to be more like a philosophy forum, or at best a forum on “Secular Buddhism”. There is nothing wrong with that. There are those who declare openly that they do not believe in rebirth, and thus do not believe that Nibbana means stopping the rebirth process. They call themselves “Secular Buddhists”. I think that is a more honest approach. In fact, that is the way one should initially approach Buddha Dhamma. The Buddha himself explained, in the Maha Cattarisaka sutta, that there are two eightfold paths: the mundane eightfold path where one lives a moral life and gets rid of the 10 types of mica ditthi. Then one gets on the lokottara path, when one is able to start comprehending deeper aspects, and make an effort to attain Nibbana (release from future suffering in the rebirth process).

Anyway, that is what I have to say. There is no need to respond or me to rebut. I have stated these enough times. No point in going through it again.

May everyone find the true Dhamma and attain Nibbana!
This post is better because there is less noise (shaming language) and more signal (axioms). Everything you wrote about this forum and secular Buddhism is unnecessary and a waste of time. That's the true problem with Wrong Speech, you are covering gems with feces and people don't want to wade through feces to get to the gems.

In short, you could have written that anicca means strong attachment and not impermanence, due to mistranslation. This would have been more helpful and less time consuming to read than wading through ad hominems and strawman fallacies. Just get to the point!

People who know they are wrong tend to have a lot more noise than signal so that people don't disprove them right away, as their ego is heavily invested into those axioms. It would be a shame if your theories were actually true and you've kept them hidden out of fear.

Your website also has similar fluff, I remember having to open several tabs in the middle of articles that would send me to other articles which had more links to other articles and I would end up with 30 open tabs of half read articles.

Your dhamma may be valuable, but the way you organize your communication is very poor. Better to write a linear book that starts with the basics and builds its way up without sending the reader off on tangents to other non-linear chapters or books.

Keep it linear and keep it clean.

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