The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:58 pm

Sam Vara said:
The section of the linked text which refers to SN 56.11 begins:
Then the Lord addressed the group of five monks, saying: “These two (dead) ends, monks, should not be followed by one who has gone forth....
...and it ends:
Then the Lord uttered this solemn utterance: “Indeed, Koṇḍañña has understood, indeed, Koṇḍañña has understood.” Thus it was that Aññata Koṇḍañña became the venerable Koṇḍañña’s name.
There is nothing there about how long it took.
So, you are saying that the Buddha just recited the sutta (the Pali version of SN 56.11) to the five ascetics? And then Kondanna attained the Sotapanna stage at the end of that recital?

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:19 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:58 pm
Sam Vara said:
The section of the linked text which refers to SN 56.11 begins:
Then the Lord addressed the group of five monks, saying: “These two (dead) ends, monks, should not be followed by one who has gone forth....
...and it ends:
Then the Lord uttered this solemn utterance: “Indeed, Koṇḍañña has understood, indeed, Koṇḍañña has understood.” Thus it was that Aññata Koṇḍañña became the venerable Koṇḍañña’s name.
There is nothing there about how long it took.
So, you are saying that the Buddha just recited the sutta (the Pali version of SN 56.11) to the five ascetics? And then Kondanna attained the Sotapanna stage at the end of that recital?
No, I'm not saying that. It presumably couldn't have taken place in exactly that way, because the account of the vision of the Dhamma arising in Kondanna forms part of that sutta; which in its entirety consists both of the Buddha's teaching, and its reception by others including Kondanna. The sutta itself was obviously compiled after the events which it relates. I'm saying that there is no evidence in what you have cited to support your assertion that the sutta was delivered over the course of a night.

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:05 pm

Sam Vara said:
I'm saying that there is no evidence in what you have cited to support your assertion that the sutta was delivered over the course of a night.
Since you are insisting on it, I am copying and pasting the whole relevant section. Of course a very similar account is in the book, “The Life of the Buddha” by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, in the chapter entitled, “After the Enlightenment”.
- There is also the account given by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in the link that kstan1122 provided, which actually gives the dates that each of the five attained the Sotapanna stage.
- This is critically important since many people have the wrong idea that magga phaa can be attained by just reciting suttas.
- As I pointed out, the Buddha worried about how many people will be able to understand his new found Dhamma. That account is also in the earlier part of the weblink and also in the book above. It is not possible to grasp this deep Dhamma just by reciting or reading a direct translation.

Anyway, here is the whole account from the link: https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd1

On the group of five

Then it occurred to the Lord: “Now, to whom should I first teach dhamma? Who will understand this dhamma quickly?” Then it occurred to the Lord: “Indeed, this Āḷāra the Kālāma is learned, experienced, wise, and for a long time has had little dust in his eyes. Suppose I were to teach dhamma first to Āḷāra the Kālāma? He will understand this dhamma quickly.”

But then an invisible devatā announced to the Lord: “Lord, Āḷāra the Kālāma passed away seven days ago.” And the knowledge arose to the Lord that Āḷāra the Kālāma had passed away seven days ago. Then it occurred to the Lord: “Āḷāra the Kālāma was of great intelligence. If he had heard this dhamma, he would have understood it quickly.”

Then it occurred to the Lord: “Now, to whom should I first teach dhamma? Who will understand this dhamma quickly?” Then it occurred to the Lord: “Indeed, this Uddaka, Rāma’s son, is learned, experienced, wise, and for a long time has had little dust in his eyes. Suppose I were to teach dhamma first to Uddaka, Rāma’s son? He will understand this dhamma quickly.”

But then an invisible devatā announced to the Lord: “Lord, Uddaka, Rāma’s son, passed away last night.” And the knowledge arose to the Lord that Uddaka, Rāma’s son, had passed away last night. Then it occurred to the Lord: “Uddaka, Rāma’s son, was of great intelligence. If he had heard this dhamma, he would have understood it quickly.”

Then it occurred to the Lord: “Now, to whom should I first teach dhamma? Who will understand this dhamma quickly?” Then it occurred to the Lord: “That group of five monks who waited on me when I was self-resolute in striving were very helpful. Suppose I were to teach dhamma first to the group of five monks?”

Then it occurred to the Lord: “But where is this group of five monks staying at present? Then the Lord with deva-vision, purified and surpassing that of men, saw the group of five monks staying near Benares at Isipatana in the deer-park. Then the Lord, having stayed at Uruvelā for as long as he found suiting, set out on tour for Benares.

Upaka, a Naked Ascetic, saw the Lord going along the highroad between Gayā and the (Tree of) Awakening; seeing him, he spoke thus to the Lord: “Your reverence, your sense-organs are quite pure, your complexion very bright, very clear. On account of whom have you, your reverence, gone forth, or who is your teacher, or whose dhamma do you profess?”

When this had been said, the Lord addressed Upaka, the Naked Ascetic, in verses:

“Victorious over all, omniscient am I,
Among all things undefiled,
Leaving all, through death of craving freed,
By knowing for myself, whom should I follow?

“For me there is no teacher,
One like me does not exist,
In the world with its devas
No one equals me.

“For I am perfected in the world,
The teacher supreme am I,
I alone am all-awakened,
Become cool am I, nibbāna-attained.

“To turn the dhamma-wheel
I go to Kasi’s city,
Beating the drum of deathlessness
In a world that’s blind become.”

“According to what you claim, your reverence, you ought to be victor of the unending” (Upaka said).

“Like me, they are victors indeed,
Who have won to destruction of the cankers;
Vanquished by me are evil things,
Therefore am I, Upaka, a victor.”

When this had been said, Upaka, the Naked Ascetic, having said, “It may be (so), your reverence,” having shaken his head, went off taking a different road.

Then the Lord, walking on tour, in due course approached Benares, the deer-park of Isipatana, the group of five monks. The group of five monks saw the Lord coming in the distance; seeing him, they agreed among themselves, saying: “Your reverences, this recluse Gotama is coming, he lives in abundance, he is wavering in his striving, he has reverted to a life of abundance. He should neither be greeted, nor stood up for, nor should his bowl and robe be received; all the same a seat may be put out, he can sit down if he wants to.”

But as the Lord gradually approached this group of five monks, so this group of five monks, not adhering to their own agreement, having gone towards the Lord, one received his bowl and robe, one made ready a seat, one brought water for washing the feet, a foot-stool, a foot-stand. The Lord sat down on the seat made ready, and the Lord, while he was sitting down, washed his feet. Further, they addressed the Lord by name and with the epithet of “your reverence.”

When this had been said, the Lord spoke thus to the group of five monks: “Do not, monks, address a Truthfinder by name, and with the epithet ‘your reverence’. A Truthfinder, monks, is a perfected one, a fully awakened one. Give ear, monks, the deathless has been found; I instruct, I teach dhamma. Going along in accordance with what has been enjoined, having soon realised here and now by your own super-knowledge that supreme goal of the Brahma-faring for the sake of which young men of family rightly go forth from home into homelessness, you will abide in it.”

When this had been said, the group of five monks spoke thus to the Lord: “But you, reverend Gotama, did not come to a state of further-men, to the eminence of truly ariyan vision of knowledge, by this conduct, by this course, by this practice of austerities. So how can you now come to a state of further-men, to the eminence of the truly ariyan vision of knowledge, when you live in abundance, are wavering in striving, and have reverted to a life of abundance?”

When this had been said, the Lord spoke thus to the group of five monks: “A Truthfinder, monks, does not live in abundance, he does not waver in striving, he does not revert to a life of abundance. A Truthfinder, monks, is a perfected one, a fully awakened one. Give ear, monks, the deathless has been found; I instruct, I teach dhamma. Going along in accordance with what has been enjoined, having soon realised here and now by your own super-knowledge that supreme goal of the Brahma-faring for the sake of which young men of family rightly go forth from home into homelessness, you will abide in it.”

And a second time did the group of five monks speak thus to the Lord … And a second time did the Lord speak thus to the group of five monks … And a third time did the group of five monks speak thus to the Lord: “But you, reverend Gotama, did not come to a state of further-men … by this practice of austerities … to a life of abundance?”

When this had been said, the Lord spoke thus to the group of five monks: “Do you allow, monks, that I have never spoken to you like this before?”

“You have not, Lord.”

“A Truthfinder, monks, is a perfected one, a fully awakened one. Give ear … you will abide in it.” And the Lord was able to convince the group of five monks. Then the group of five monks listened to the Lord again, gave ear to him and aroused their minds for profound knowledge.

Then the Lord addressed the group of five monks, saying: “These two (dead) ends, monks, should not be followed by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is, among sense-pleasures, addiction to attractive sense-pleasures, low, of the villager, of the average man, unariyan, not connected with the goal; and that which is addiction to self-torment, ill, unariyan, not connected with the goal. Now, monks, without adopting either of these two (dead) ends, there is a middle course, fully awakened to by the Truthfinder, making for vision, making for knowledge, which conduces to calming, to super-knowledge, to awakening, to nibbāna.

“And what, monks, is this middle course fully awakened to by the Truthfinder, making for vision, making for knowledge, which conduces to calming, to super-knowledge, to awakening, to nibbāna? It is this ariyan eightfold Way itself, that is to say: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right mode of living, right endeavour, right mindfulness, right concentration. This, monks, is the middle course, fully awakened to by the Truthfinder, making for vision, making for knowledge, which conduces to calming, to super-knowledge to awakening, to nibbāna.

“And this, monks, is the ariyan truth of ill: birth is ill, and old age is ill and disease is ill and dying is ill, association with what is not dear is ill, separation from what is dear is ill, not getting what one wants is ill—in short the five groups of grasping are ill.

“And this, monks, is the ariyan truth of the uprising of ill: that which is craving connected with again-becoming, accompanied by delight and passion, finding delight in this and that, that is to say: craving for sense-pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for de-becoming.

“And this, monks, is the ariyan truth of the stopping of ill: the utter and passionless stopping of that very craving, its renunciation, surrender, release, the lack of pleasure in it.

“And this, monks, is the ariyan truth of the course leading to the stopping of ill: this aryan eightfold Way itself, that is to say: right view … right concentration.

On thinking, ‘This is the ariyan truth of ill’, among things not heard before by me, monks, vision arose, knowledge arose, wisdom arose, higher knowledge arose, light arose. On thinking, ‘Now that which is the ariyan truth of ill must be completely known’ … ‘Now that which is the ariyan truth of ill is completely known’, among things not heard before by me, monks, vision arose, knowledge arose, wisdom arose, higher knowledge arose, light arose.

“On thinking, ‘This is the ariyan truth of the uprising of ill’ … light arose. On thinking, ‘Now that which is this ariyan truth of the uprising of ill must be given up’ … ‘… is given up’ … light arose.

“On thinking, ‘This is the ariyan truth of the stopping of ill’ … light arose. On thinking, ‘Now that which is this ariyan truth of the stopping of ill must be realized’ … ‘… is realised’ … light arose.

“On thinking, ‘This is the ariyan truth of the course going to the stopping of ill’ … light arose. On thinking, ‘Now that which is this ariyan truth of the course leading to the stopping of ill must be made to become’ … ‘… is made to become’ … light arose.

“And so long, monks, the vision of knowledge of these four ariyan truths, with the three sections and twelve modes as they really are, was not well purified by me, so long was I, monks, not thoroughly awakened with the supreme full awakening as to the world with its devas, with its Māras, with its Brahmās, with its recluses and brahmins, its creatures with devas and men. This I knew.

“But when, monks, the vision of knowledge of these four ariyan truths, with the three sections and twelve modes as they really are, was well purified by me, then was I, monks, thoroughly awakened with the supreme full awakening as to the world … with its recluses and brahmins, its creatures with devas and men. This I knew.

“Moreover, the vision of knowledge arose in me: ‘Freedom of mind is for me unshakeable, this the last birth, there is not now again-becoming.’” Thus spoke the Lord; delighted, the group of five monks rejoiced in the Lord’s utterance. Moreover, while this discourse was being uttered, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to the venerable Koṇḍañña that “whatever is of the nature to uprise, all that is of the nature to stop.”

And when the Lord had rolled the dhamma-wheel, the earth devas made this sound heard: “The supreme dhamma-wheel rolled thus by the Lord at Benares in the deer-park at Isipatana cannot be rolled back by a recluse or brahmin or deva or by Māra or by Brahmā or by anyone in the world.” Having heard the sound of the earth devas, the devas of the Four Great Kings made this sound heard … the Thirty devas … Yama’s devas … the Happy devas … the devas who delight in creation … the devas who delight in the creation of others … the devas of Brahmā’s retinue made this sound heard: “The supreme dhamma-wheel rolled thus by the Lord at Benares in the deer-park at Isipatana cannot be rolled back by a recluse or brahmin or deva or by Māra or by Brahmā or by anyone in the world.”

In this wise in that moment, in that second, in that instant, the sound reached as far as the Brahma-world, and the ten thousandfold world-system trembled, quaked, shook violently and a radiance, splendid, measureless, surpassing the devas’ own glory, was manifest in the world. Then the Lord uttered this solemn utterance: “Indeed, Koṇḍañña has understood, indeed, Koṇḍañña has understood.” Thus it was that Aññata Koṇḍañña became the venerable Koṇḍañña’s name.

Then the venerable Aññata Koṇḍañña, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma, known dhamma, plunged into dhamma, having crossed over doubt, having put away uncertainty, having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the teacher’s instruction, spoke thus to the Lord: “May I, Lord, receive the going forth in the Lord’s presence, may I receive ordination?”

“Come, monk,” the Lord said, “well taught is dhamma. Fare the Brahma-faring for making an utter end of ill.” So this came to be this venerable one’s ordination.

Then the Lord exhorted, instructed those remaining monks with dhamma-talk. Then while they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma-talk, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to the venerable Vappa and to the venerable Bhaddiya, that “whatever is of the nature to uprise, all that is of the nature to stop.”

These, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma, known dhamma … having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the teacher’s instruction, spoke thus to the Lord: “May we, Lord, receive the going forth in the Lord’s presence, may we receive ordination?”

“Come, monks,” the Lord said, “well taught is dhamma, fare the Brahma-faring for making an utter end of ill.” So this came to be these venerable ones’ ordination.

Then the Lord, eating the food brought back by these, exhorted, instructed those remaining monks with dhamma-talk, saying: “Let the group of six live on whatever the three monks bring when they have walked for almsfood.”

Then while they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma-talk, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to the venerable Mahānāma and to the venerable Assaji, that “whatever is of the nature to uprise, all that is of the nature to stop.”

These, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma … having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the teacher’s instruction, spoke thus to the Lord: “May we, Lord, receive the going forth in the Lord’s presence, may we receive ordination?”

“Come, monks,” the Lord said, “well taught is dhamma, fare the Brahma-faring for making an utter end of ill.” So this came to be these venerable ones’ ordination.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:26 pm

Lal wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:05 pm
Sam Vara said:
I'm saying that there is no evidence in what you have cited to support your assertion that the sutta was delivered over the course of a night.
Since you are insisting on it, I am copying and pasting the whole relevant section.
I'm not insisting on it at all. I read it via the link you provided, and could find no mention of the sutta being delivered over the course of a night. Now that you have copied and pasted it, I can still find no mention of the sutta being delivered over the course of a night. If I have missed it again, it should be an easy matter to quote the sentence or two which states the duration of the teaching which we have as SN 56.11.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:40 am

Lal wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:05 pm
- As I pointed out, the Buddha worried about how many people will be able to understand his new found Dhamma.
The Buddhas don't worry.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:49 am

Sam Vara said:
I'm not insisting on it at all. I read it via the link you provided, and could find no mention of the sutta being delivered over the course of a night. Now that you have copied and pasted it, I can still find no mention of the sutta being delivered over the course of a night. If I have missed it again, it should be an easy matter to quote the sentence or two which states the duration of the teaching which we have as SN 56.11.
This is what is called "ditthi". When one holds onto something (a wrong view), one never lets go, even when evidence is presented. One just wants to win the argument, and not interested in finding the truth.
- Duration of the teaching should be apparent at the end of what I quoted, when it clearly says Kondanna first attained the Sotapanna stage (that is why he came to known as "annata Kodnnna" or "one who knows", when the Buddha declared that "Kondanna understood!"): "Then the venerable Aññata Koṇḍañña, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma, known dhamma, plunged into dhamma, having crossed over doubt, having put away uncertainty, having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the teacher’s instruction..".
- Then it says "..Then the Lord exhorted, instructed those remaining monks with dhamma-talk. Then while they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma-talk, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to the venerable Vappa and to the venerable Bhaddiya..". So, two more attained the Sotapanna stage after further instructions.
- Finally, "..Then the Lord, eating the food brought back by these, exhorted, instructed those remaining monks with dhamma-talk, saying: “Let the group of six live on whatever the three monks bring when they have walked for almsfood. Then while they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma-talk, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to the venerable Mahānāma and to the venerable Assaji, "
- So, it took several days before the last two, venerable Mahānāma and venerable Assaji, to attain the Sotapanna stage. The number of days is given in the link provided by kstan1122.
-All one needs to realize is that the translator did not use the specific word "Sotapanna", but that should be clear to anyone with a basic understanding. Also, the account continues and says, that all five then attained the Arahant stage upon the delivery of the Anattalakkhana Sutta.

The Buddha did not say to the five ascetics, "I am going to deliver Dhammacakkappavattana sutta". He just said, "I am going to tell you what the real nature of this world is (Dhamma)".

The name was assigned later when the Buddha condensed the material and taught Ven. Ananada. When Ven. Ananda recited the sutta at the First Buddhist Council, he said "Thus I heard". He was not there to listen to either this sutta or many other suttas as they were delivered. He became Buddha's assistant about 15 years after the Enlightenment and apparently learned those suttas from the Buddha.

I can see that the main problem at this forum is that many people expect to find Dhamma in detail (together with the background) in the suttas. A sutta (especially deep suttas like this) is like an equation in algebra. One has to learn the basics in order to really understand such a sutta. Those accounts in the Vinaya Pitaka help us get a literal description of events that is not in the suttas.

rightviewftw said:
The Buddhas don't worry.
From the same link, previous to the accounts on the five ascetics (the book gives the same account):

On the invitation of Brahmā

Then the Lord, having emerged from that contemplation at the end of seven days, approached the Goatherds’ Banyan from the foot of the Rājāyatana; having approached, the Lord stayed there at the foot of the Goatherds’ Banyan.

Then as the Lord was meditating in seclusion a reasoning arose in his mind thus: “This dhamma, won to by me, is deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful, excellent, beyond dialectic, subtle, intelligible to the learned. But this is a creation delighting in sensual pleasure, delighted by sensual pleasure, rejoicing in sensual pleasure. So that for a creation delighting in sensual pleasure, delighted by sensual pleasure, rejoicing in sensual pleasure, this were a matter difficult to see, that is to say causal uprising by way of cause. This too were a matter very difficult to see, that is to say the calming of all the habitual tendencies, the renunciation of all attachment, the destruction of craving, dispassion, stopping, nibbāna. And so if I were to teach dhamma and others were not to understand me, this would be a weariness to me, this would be a vexation to me.”

And further, these verses not heard before in the past occurred spontaneously to the Lord:

“This that through many toils I’ve won—
Enough! Why should I make it known?
By folk with lust and hate consumed
This dhamma is not understood.

Leading on against the stream,
Subtle, deep, difficult to see, delicate,
Unseen ‘twill be by passion’s slaves
Cloaked in the murk of ignorance.”

In such wise, as the Lord pondered, his mind inclined to little effort and not to teaching dhamma. Then it occurred to Brahmā Sahampati, knowing with his mind the reasoning in the Lord’s mind: “Alas, the world is lost, alas, the world is destroyed, inasmuch as the mind of the Truth-finder, the perfected one, the fully awakened one, inclines to little effort and not to teaching dhamma.”

Then as a strong man might stretch forth his bent arm or might bend back his outstretched arm, even so did Brahmā Sahampati, vanishing from the Brahma-world, become manifest before the Lord.

Then Brahmā Sahampati, having arranged his upper robe over one shoulder, having stooped his right knee to the ground having saluted the Lord with joined palms, spoke thus to the Lord: “Lord, let the Lord teach dhamma, let the Well-farer teach dhamma; there are beings with little dust in their eyes who, not hearing dhamma, are decaying, (but if) they are learners of dhamma, they will grow.”

Thus spoke Brahmā Sahampati; having said this, he further spoke thus:

“There has appeared in Magadha before thee
An unclean dhamma by impure minds devised.
Open this door of deathlessness, let them hear
Dhamma awakened to by the stainless one.

“As on a crag on crest of mountain standing
A man might watch the people far below,
E’en so do thou, O Wisdom fair, ascending,
O Seer of all, the terraced heights of truth,
Look down, from grief released, upon the peoples
Sunken in grief, oppressed with birth and age.

“Arise, thou hero! Conqueror in the battle!
Thou freed from debt! Man of the caravan!
Walk the world over, let the Blessed One
Teach dhamma. They who learn will grow.”

When he had spoken thus, the Lord spoke thus to Brahmā Sahampati: “Brahmā, it occurred to me: ‘This dhamma penetrated by me is deep … that would be a vexation to me.’ And further, Brahmā, these verses not heard before in the past occurred spontaneously to me: ‘This that through many toils I’ve won … cloaked in the murk of ignorance.’ In such wise, Brahmā, as I pondered, my mind inclined to little effort and not to teaching dhamma.”

Then a second time did Brahmā Sahampati speak thus to the Lord: “Lord, let the Lord teach dhamma … if they are learners of dhamma, they will grow.” Then a second time did the Lord speak thus to Brahmā Sahampati: “But, Brahmā, it occurred to me: … my mind inclined to little effort and and not to teaching dhamma.”

Then a third time did Brahmā Sahampati speak thus to the Lord: “Lord, let the Lord teach dhamma … if they are learners of dhamma, they will grow.” Then the Lord, having understood Brahmā’s entreaty and, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an awakened one. As the Lord was surveying the world with the eye of an awakened one, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes, with much dust in their eyes, with acute faculties, with dull faculties, of good dispositions, of bad dispositions, docile, indocile, few seeing fear in sins and the worlds beyond.

Even as in a pond of blue lotuses or in a pond of red lotuses or in a pond of white lotuses, a few blue or red or white lotuses are born in the water, grow in the water, do not rise above the water but thrive while altogether immersed; a few blue or red or white lotuses are born in the water, grow in the water and reach to the surface of the water; a few blue or red or white lotuses are born in the water, grow in the water, and stand up rising out of the water, undefiled by the water.

Even so, did the Lord, surveying the world with the eye of an awakened one, see beings with little dust in their eyes, with much dust in their eyes, with acute faculties, with dull faculties, of good dispositions, of bad dispositions, docile, indocile, few seeing fear in sins and the worlds beyond. Seeing Brahmā Sahampati, he addressed him with verses:

“Open for those who hear are the doors of deathlessness;
let them renounce their faith.
Thinking of useless fatigue, I have not preached, Brahmā, the
sublime and excellent dhamma to men.”

Then Brahmā Sahampati, thinking: “The opportunity was made by me for the Lord to teach dhamma,” greeting the Lord, keeping his right side towards him, vanished then and there.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by budo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:43 am

Regarding the invitation of Brahma, if the Buddha is the least ignorant being in existence, then why would he need Brahma's invitation?

It is only once the Buddha used his special eye to survey the environment did he decide.

So it's like at first he thought people aren't capable of seeing the dhamma, then Brahma influenced him into using his special eye, and then he changed his mind.. Or does he admit that he doesn't have supreme knowledge and that he'll throw what he can at the wall and see what sticks.. (Not saying brahma has higher knowledge)

To me it sounds like latter

"“Open for those who hear are the doors of deathlessness;
let them renounce their faith"

E.g. he is saying he'll give his best try at teaching dhamma, and if it works good, and if it doesn't oh well.

It also seems like the Buddha only cares if you display persistence, hence he'll ignore you unless you pester him a little by asking the same question three times, hence he's screening you for the amount of effort you have. In other words if you give up easily, don't waste his time.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by StormBorn » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:17 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:40 am
Lal wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:05 pm
- As I pointed out, the Buddha worried about how many people will be able to understand his new found Dhamma.
The Buddhas don't worry.
The episode of Brahmā’s request to the Buddha to teach has been regarded as problematic from early times, since it suggests that the Buddha was initially lacking in compassion.... The original purpose of the episode was not to describe the Buddha’s inner conflict but to show that Brahmā, representative of Brahmanical religion, was a follower of the Buddha. The episode was originally religious propaganda.

Quoted from Why Did Brahmā Ask the Buddha to Teach? by Dhivan Thomas Jones
Also, worth reading Brahmā’s Invitation: the Ariyapariyesanā-sutta in the Light of its Madhyama-āgama Parallel by Bhikkhu Anālayo.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Sam Vara
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:08 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:49 am
Sam Vara said:
I'm not insisting on it at all. I read it via the link you provided, and could find no mention of the sutta being delivered over the course of a night. Now that you have copied and pasted it, I can still find no mention of the sutta being delivered over the course of a night. If I have missed it again, it should be an easy matter to quote the sentence or two which states the duration of the teaching which we have as SN 56.11.
This is what is called "ditthi". When one holds onto something (a wrong view), one never lets go, even when evidence is presented. One just wants to win the argument, and not interested in finding the truth.
With respect, I have seen that approach so many times here on DW and on other forums that it appears a bit stilted. When someone fails to convince another member of something, they often claim that the other member has "Views" - ditthi - whereas they, presumably, are in possession of the truth. (It's a bit like Marxists claiming that the other person's thinking is influenced by ideology, whereas they themselves are taking a scientific approach; or a Freudian who claims they know better because their opponent is neurotic, and they are not.) Of course, I could claim the same of you, couldn't I? That you, simply wishing to win an argument, never lets go, wrong view, ditthi, etc., etc. But that's not to debate a point, it's simply to anathematise what the other person is saying.
- Duration of the teaching should be apparent at the end of what I quoted, when it clearly says Kondanna first attained the Sotapanna stage (that is why he came to known as "annata Kodnnna" or "one who knows", when the Buddha declared that "Kondanna understood!"): "Then the venerable Aññata Koṇḍañña, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma, known dhamma, plunged into dhamma, having crossed over doubt, having put away uncertainty, having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the teacher’s instruction..".
It's not apparent. Evidence of duration would require an indication of start time and end time, or a plain statement of how long the Buddha taught for. That excerpt just says that Kondanna came to understand. I've said this above, very clearly, but you just keep citing and saying how obvious it is. Try emboldening or colouring the actual words that indicate temporal duration.
- So, it took several days before the last two, venerable Mahānāma and venerable Assaji, to attain the Sotapanna stage. The number of days is given in the link provided by kstan1122.
Again, this provides evidence of duration, but, as I have said upstream, is not specifying anything that the Buddha was teaching. Again, if you think the Buddha was teaching what we have preserved in a particular sutta, then please embolden or colour the text. I can see no mention of a sutta there. It's quite possible that the Buddha taught the contents of SN 56.11 in one brief period, Kondanna achieved his breakthrough, and then further, completely different teachings were given until such time as the others in the group achieved their breakthroughs. We just don't know. I don't know, and nor, it seems, do you.
I can see that the main problem at this forum is that many people expect to find Dhamma in detail (together with the background) in the suttas.


Again, this is merely to anathematise approaches that you don't follow. Other people might have that approach, but it might be helpful for all concerned if you didn't see other approaches as a problem.

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:40 pm

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sa115
You spoke according to the Dharma, speaking the Dharma in accordance with the Dharma. Why is that? Rādha, one goes forth to cultivate the holy life under the Tathāgata for the sake of abandoning worry, sorrow, vexation, and pain in relation to bodily form. One goes forth to cultivate the holy life under the Tathāgata for the sake of abandoning worry, sorrow, vexation, and pain in relation to feeling … perception … formations … consciousness.”
Top of the Standard Sutta;
the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — is devoid of passion, devoid of aversion, devoid of delusion. He feels no fear, feels no terror, feels no dread.
Dhammapada Chp 16
From what's dear is born grief,
from what's dear is born fear.
For one freed from what's dear
there's no grief
so how fear?

From what's loved is born grief,
from what's loved is born fear.
For one freed from what's loved
there's no grief
so how fear?

From delight is born grief,
from delight is born fear.
For one freed from delight
there's no grief
so how fear?

From sensuality is born grief,
from sensuality is born fear.
For one freed from sensuality
there's no grief
so how fear?

From craving is born grief,
from craving is born fear.
For one freed from craving
there's no grief
so how fear?
Upaadaaparitassanaa Sutta: Grasping and Worry
And how, monks, do not grasping and not worrying arise?
"Here, monks, the well-instructed Ariyan disciple, who has regard for the Noble Ones, is skilled and trained in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones,... of those who are worthy, does not regard body as the self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. Change occurs to this man's body, and it becomes different, but despite this change and alteration in his body, his consciousness is not preoccupied with bodily change... Not being full of desire and attachment, he is not worried. [Similarly with 'feeling,' 'perception,' 'the mental formations' and 'consciousness']. In this way, monks, grasping and worrying do not arise."
https://www.wisdompubs.org/landing/madhupindika-sutta
4. “Friend, I assert and proclaim [my teaching] in such a way that one does not quarrel with anyone in the world with its gods, its Māras, and its Brahmās, in this generation with its recluses and brahmins, its princes and its people; in such a way that perceptions no more underlie that brahmin who abides detached from sensual pleasures, without perplexity, shorn of worry, free from craving for any kind of being.”
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.
Furthermore Worry is sometimes a translation for one of the hindrances due to the nature of that state;
IE translated from the Pali by Burma Piṭaka Association
When distraction and worry are present in him, he knows 'There are distraction and worry in me'; or when distraction and worry are not present in him, he knows 'There are no distraction and worry in me'. Besides, he knows that the distraction and worry which have not yet arisen come to arise; and he knows that the distraction and worry that have arisen come to be discarded; and be knows that the discarded distraction and worry will not arise in the future.
Worry is a state of being anxious about potential outcomes, anxiety is a state based on fear, dread and or restlessness.

Obviously the Tathagata is free from anxiety.
Obviously the Tathagata is free from fear.
Obviously the Tathagata is free from restlessness.

You are relying on one translation of vexation, here are alternatives;

Thanissaro
"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me."
Sujato
“This principle I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of reason, subtle, comprehensible to the astute. But people like attachment, they love it and enjoy it. It’s hard for them to see this thing; that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination. It’s also hard for them to see this thing; that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment. And if I were to teach this principle, others might not understand me, which would be wearying and troublesome for me.”

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budo
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by budo » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:04 am

There's a lot of conflicting views in the suttas, which I think can be chalked up to two things that I'm aware of:

1) Poor translations

2) Brahmanic meddling/influence, and certain movements throughout history between councils. Even the vipassana movement tries to reinterpret the dhamma in a lot of famous vipassana books I've read.

For this reason I prioritize early buddhism (4 nikayas, some khuddaka, and chinese agamas) above theravada. Of course it's not perfect, but I think it's the most authentic there is.

Sorry Lal, your interpretation of the dhamma doesn't sit well, although some parts do. And as Sam implied, a lot of it sounds like cargo cult pseudoscience (aka charging your opposition with fallacies that you yourself commit, in order to appear legitimate)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:24 am

I feel bad about those who have written those “statements” above. If it is Buddha Dhamma that we are discussing, then we should be able to check everything within the Tipitaka (three baskets): Sutta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, Abhidhamma Pitaka.

This is not philosophy. If you contest what the Buddha taught (treating him like another philosopher), then that is your right. But please don't call it Buddha Dhamma.

Please see whether you have actually been able to disprove what I quoted from the Tipitaka.

Rightviewftw gives many quotes from the Tipitaka. But which one disproves what I have stated (which statement is disproved)?

Budo asked: “Regarding the invitation of Brahma, if the Buddha is the least ignorant being in existence, then why would he need Brahma's invitation?”
- Of course, the Buddha would have realized that there are enough beings in the world who would be able to understand. But that was his first realization, how difficult it would be. Once the Brahma made the invitation (it could be a tradition too), the Buddha did survey the world and saw that indeed there were many who would be able to understand. It is stated so in that account. Most of you still do not seem to realize how deep Buddha Dhamma is.

Others have just made statements or quoted from the echo chamber, not from the Tipitaka. For how many years you all have been doing this? It is a huge echo chamber, and you don’t realize it.

Of course, one would not know truth because it has been hidden for so many years. But once the truth is presented, one should be able to see. I was ignorant too, until I came across Waharaka Thero's desanas. In one desana, I could see what had been hidden all these years. That is why I am so surprised, why some people have such a hard time "getting it".
- I can see why the Buddha himself faced so much resistance in the beginning, because ditthis are hard to break. If you read the book that I recommended (“The Life of the Buddha” by Bhikkhu Nānamoli), you will see that it was not only the five ascetics who resisted, but also many others like Uruvela Kassapa.
- But at least some people reading the forum seem to understand.

Instead of referring to others, making your own statements, and patting each other on the back, please try to do the following if you want to find the truth.

Quote specifically something wrong that I stated, and disprove it from Tipitaka.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by budo » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:48 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:24 am
I feel bad about those who have written those “statements” above. If it is Buddha Dhamma that we are discussing, then we should be able to check everything within the Tipitaka (three baskets): Sutta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, Abhidhamma Pitaka.

This is not philosophy. If you contest what the Buddha taught (treating him like another philosopher), then that is your right. But please don't call it Buddha Dhamma.

Please see whether you have actually been able to disprove what I quoted from the Tipitaka.

Rightviewftw gives many quotes from the Tipitaka. But which one disproves what I have stated (which statement is disproved)?

Budo asked: “Regarding the invitation of Brahma, if the Buddha is the least ignorant being in existence, then why would he need Brahma's invitation?”
- Of course, the Buddha would have realized that there are enough beings in the world who would be able to understand. But that was his first realization, how difficult it would be. Once the Brahma made the invitation (it could be a tradition too), the Buddha did survey the world and saw that indeed there were many who would be able to understand. It is stated so in that account. Most of you still do not seem to realize how deep Buddha Dhamma is.

Others have just made statements or quoted from the echo chamber, not from the Tipitaka. For how many years you all have been doing this? It is a huge echo chamber, and you don’t realize it.

Of course, one would not know truth because it has been hidden for so many years. But once the truth is presented, one should be able to see. I was ignorant too, until I came across Waharaka Thero's desanas. In one desana, I could see what had been hidden all these years. That is why I am so surprised, why some people have such a hard time "getting it".
- I can see why the Buddha himself faced so much resistance in the beginning, because ditthis are hard to break. If you read the book that I recommended (“The Life of the Buddha” by Bhikkhu Nānamoli), you will see that it was not only the five ascetics who resisted, but also many others like Uruvela Kassapa.
- But at least some people reading the forum seem to understand.

Instead of referring to others, making your own statements, and patting each other on the back, please try to do the following if you want to find the truth.

Quote specifically something wrong that I stated, and disprove it from Tipitaka.
Let's do a simple illustration.

Suppose someone is completely ignorant, they are blind, their map is all greyed out and blank. They do not know what they do not know.

Two people who are well versed in their own theory, both who claim to know the truth, come along to this person and say the exact same thing:

"You've been in an echo-chamber your whole life"

"You don't understand it, or realize how deep it is"

"Stop patting yourself on the back"

"I am surprised it's taking you so long to get it"

"Your view is hard to break because you are resisting it"

"You're just philosophizing"

What do you think that person who knows nothing would do? He would probably ignore both of them and leave. Why? because that's empty talk that doesn't claim anything, it's just empty shaming language. The majority of what you write is empty shaming language that doesn't enlighten anyone, it doesn't add new information, it's just fluff that's tiring to read.

Then when people press you to explain your ideas or theories further you get defensive and resort to more shaming language, or you give some ambiguous answer that doesn't answer the question.

People who know nothing require faith in the person who claims to know something. Your noise to signal ratio is just mostly just noise, and how can you expect people to have faith in such a person?

Can you please just write a book translating Waharaka Thero's dhamma with as little noise as possible? That would be great and you'd be doing his work a true service.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:22 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:24 am
Rightviewftw gives many quotes from the Tipitaka. But which one disproves what I have stated (which statement is disproved)?
in regards to Buddha's supposed worry, all of them do clearly suggest that you are wrong. I could even string together enough sutta excerpts to constitute a book showing how no worry could arise in one free of conceit but i doubt it would be of any use because by default you are right and people who disagree are wrong and the unshakable faith(read: stubborness and attachment) makes sure that you don't even entertain the idea of being wrong.

Just look at the discussion above, you said Buddha worried, i said it is impossible, you then provided a sutta quote and i provided you with two alternate translations of your quote, did a semantical analysis and provided a bunch of explicit contradictory quotes to your positions and asked you a question.

You adressed none of it, did not answer the question and pretended like i just posted random Sutta quotes that are unrelated to the discussion, to me it seems like you are simply in denial at this point.

All this certainly does explain your bar for the evidence needed to disprove you being unreasonably high and your bar for dismissing arguments very low.

My advice to you is to rename your website to "The Worrying Buddha's Dhamma".

I also think it is a shame because some of the points you raise are legitimately interesting and worth exploring imo.

Ryan95227
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Ryan95227 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:19 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:22 pm
Lal wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:24 am
Rightviewftw gives many quotes from the Tipitaka. But which one disproves what I have stated (which statement is disproved)?
in regards to Buddha's supposed worry, all of them do clearly suggest that you are wrong. I could even string together enough sutta excerpts to constitute a book showing how no worry could arise in one free of conceit but i doubt it would be of any use because by default you are right and people who disagree are wrong and the unshakable faith(read: stubborness and attachment) makes sure that you don't even entertain the idea of being wrong.

Just look at the discussion above, you said Buddha worried, i said it is impossible, you then provided a sutta quote and i provided you with two alternate translations of your quote, did a semantical analysis and provided a bunch of explicit contradictory quotes to your positions and asked you a question.

You adressed none of it, did not answer the question and pretended like i just posted random Sutta quotes that are unrelated to the discussion, to me it seems like you are simply in denial at this point.

All this certainly does explain your bar for the evidence needed to disprove you being unreasonably high and your bar for dismissing arguments very low.

My advice to you is to rename your website to "The Worrying Buddha's Dhamma".

I also think it is a shame because some of the points you raise are legitimately interesting and worth exploring imo.
It's unfortunate really. When I read about his satipatthana and anicca post it really made sense and helped me see what buddhism is all about. However during this huge debate i can just see that he is not really awakened or anything. He has strong pride, self view, and delusion.

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