The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

Can I say any awareness coming to five-six senses as Nimitta?
Most nimitta that are deliberately taken by someone as an “arammana” (thought object) for meditation either come through the eyes (kasina objects), or the mind (breath or Nibbana). I have not seen other senses (sound, smell, taste) to be taken as nimitta. Breath meditation does involve the kaya indriya, since it is the touch of breath with the nose is what is sensed.

So, I guess we can safely say that all Buddhist meditations involve nimitta taken directly through the mind. Of course, kamma and gati nimitta also come through the mind (they are not seen with eyes, but “seen” with the mind, just like when we “see” dreams).

It is possible to take any sense input as a nimitta, i.e., to fix one’s mind on that sense input. But any sense input that may lead to sense desires will not lead to calming of the mind, but actually to the opposite: It will lead to agitation of the mind. This is explained in the Malukyaputta Sutta (SN 35.95), from which one verse that is translated below:

Rūpaṃ disvā sati muṭṭhā,
Piyaṃ nimittaṃ manasi karoto;
Sārattacitto vedeti,
Tañca ajjhosa tiṭṭhati
.

See the English translation, where nimitta is translated as "sign"; it is better to leave such words not translated: https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn35.95:

Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the pleasing sign,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

“Many feelings flourish within,
Originating from the visible form,
Covetousness and annoyance as well
By which one’s mind becomes disturbed.
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.

“Having heard a sound with mindfulness muddled …

“Having smelt an odour with mindfulness muddled …

“Having enjoyed a taste with mindfulness muddled …

“Having felt a contact with mindfulness muddled …

Therefore, taking a sense inputs coming through the five physical senses normally lead to an agitated mind, (especially if they are "pleasing" as translated above) in nature.

Important conclusion: While kasina and breath meditation (which take on “neutral” worldly objects) do not lead to agitation of the mind and actually lead to calming of the mind, they will never lead to Nibbana.
Last edited by Lal on Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW »

Important conclusion: While kasina and breath meditation (which take on “neutral” worldly objects) do not lead to agitation of the mind and actually lead to calming of the mind, they will never lead to Nibbana.
Thanks.
Great answer!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

ToVincent
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by ToVincent »

SarathW wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:06 am
Important conclusion: While kasina and breath meditation (which take on “neutral” worldly objects) do not lead to agitation of the mind and actually lead to calming of the mind, they will never lead to Nibbana.
Thanks.
Great answer!
This conclusive ascertainment seems to be a bit overdone.

Bhikkhus, if wanderers of other sects ask you: 'In
what dwelling, friends, did the Blessed One
generally dwell during the rains residence?' - being
asked thus, you should answer those wanderers
thus: 'During the rains residence, friends, the
Blessed One generally dwelt in the obtention (sati) of the placement (samādhi) [in Citta], through (mindful) breathing (ānāpāna) [viz. Ānāpānasatisamādhi].
Sace kho, bhikkhave, aññatitthiyā paribbājakā evaṃ
puccheyyuṃ: ‘katamenāvuso, vihārena samaṇo
gotamo vassāvāsaṃ bahulaṃ vihāsī’ti, evaṃ puṭṭhā
tumhe, bhikkhave, tesaṃ aññatitthiyānaṃ
paribbājakānaṃ evaṃ byākareyyātha:
‘ānāpānassatisamādhinā kho, āvuso, bhagavā
vassāvāsaṃ bahulaṃ vihāsī’ti.
SN 54.11


Let alone the time when the Bhagavān was not in the rain residences.
Sounds like Ānāpānasatisamādhi was really important.

Note:
ānāpānassatisamādhi is usually and quite wrongly translated as: "concentration by mindfulness of breathing".
Something that I have already covered in previous threads.

Now, on top of the fact that ānāpānassatisamādhi was the preferred dwelling of the Buddha, one must look how this ānāpānassati leads to nibbana.

But what is nibbana?
Definitely not a "mystery".
Or at least not for the ones who have unveiled the corruption of the Teaching.

Nibbana means "The knowledge beyond [the bliss (ka) of] breath ".

निर्वाण nirvāṇa

निस् nis (var. nir, niś, niṣ, niḥ)
Beyond.

वा √ vā
to blow (RV. )

ण ṇa
knowledge


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The question is:
could निर्वाण (निस् - वा - ण) nirvāṇa been wrongly interpreted when written in Sanskrit (as per Upanishadic creed).
Could it be that the वा (of √ vā) in nirvāṇa, be instead the अव् of √ av (निस् - अव् - ण) ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
nir - ava - ṇa
where ava is the active of √ av
अव् av
- impel , animate
- bliss
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

----

क Ka is Brahma/Prajāpati - Ka is the existential creature - Ka is breath - Ka is bliss.

Breathing in and breathing out, is the other body (Ka-ya - what belongs to Ka), made from my existential being (kā-ya-aññatara (अन्यतर anyatara)-ahaṃ), says Buddha in SN 54.10.

Sa hovāca vijānāmyahaṃ yatprāṇo brahma kaṃ ca tu khaṃ
ca na vijānāmīti te hocur yad vāva kaṃ tad eva khaṃ yad eva khaṃ tad eva
kamiti prāṇaṃ ca hāsmai tadākāśaṃ cocuḥ

He replied: "I can understand that brahman is breath.
But I don't understand
how it can be bliss (Ka) or space (kha)".
"Bliss is the same as space," they replied, "and space is the same as bliss." And
they explained to him both breath and space.
ChUp 4.10.5


Here, vāva is just the active of vā.
And "maybe" this is where the conservative (yet revolutionary) Buddha, diverged with the Upanishadic crowd.
It is not about the √ vā , but about the √ av; so to speak.
It is about knowing that it is not about the existential bliss of breath; but about the bliss of citta, attained in passadhi and samadhi sambojjhange.

The progression is piti > sukha > sukañca kāyena > sukhino citta.

Anyway, let's call it a blow, an exhalation, a puff, a breath (vāva). It won't make much difference.
It won't make a mystery.
The result will be the same: viz. going beyond the bliss of that breath (blow). For breath brings bliss in Ānāpānasati.
In Ānāpānasati, √ vā becomes √ av; the particular attribute of Ka. That is to say, "bliss". But this bliss is still a mano/citta kind of bliss. An impermanent bliss that is not my self.
The permanent bliss is attained only when citta is totally liberated in upekkha. Which occurs in passadhi and samadhi sambojjhange (sukhino citta).


So far so good for Nibbāna/nirvāṇa.
Let's see why Ānāpānasati (SN 54.13) leads to nibbāna.

Like I just said in my previous posts on another thread, up to the last 16th steps of Ānāpānasati, which correspond to the second and third jhana (https://justpaste.it/69jp3), we are in the Cattāro Satipaṭṭhānā (the four ways to access the obtention [of Citta]).

However, this is not the end of Ānāpānasati.
There are still all the "given up" to do with the satta sambojjhange; before reaching the total liberation of citta and the liberation by final knowledge (vijjavimutti) - the last phase of Ānāpānasati; that corresponds with the upekkhasatiparisuddhi (purity of the obtention (of citta), due to equanimity) - the last phase of the fourth jhana - where also, dukkha and sukha (bliss), have been given up.

And this is the door to Nibbāna.

For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing has been restrained (nirudh), and subsided, and been tranquilized).
SN 36.11


Enter the higher jhanas. The knowledge beyond breath (and its (existential) bliss).

-----
I suppose that your remark: " breath meditation ...will never lead to Nibbana" is a bit lacking of some sound reading of SN 54.13, and the jhanas (with proper lexicography).
.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW »

This conclusive ascertainment seems to be a bit overdone.
Agree.
I was aware of that highlighted words and it's problem.
But I gave @Lal the benefit of doubt.
I assume what he meant was mere attention to breath does not lead to Nibbana.
Nowadays people learn breath meditation in fitness centers.
Breath meditation should be practiced in conjunction with Anapanasati to culminate Nibbana.
Last edited by SarathW on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

ToVincent
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by ToVincent »

Sure.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).

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StormBorn
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by StormBorn »

Lal wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:53 am
Important conclusion: While kasina and breath meditation (which take on “neutral” worldly objects) do not lead to agitation of the mind and actually lead to calming of the mind, they will never lead to Nibbana.
I don't know what kind of Dhamma Waharaka thero enables you to understand, but evidently the Buddha would disagree with you here...
When mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated you can expect one of two results: enlightenment in the present life, or if there’s something left over, non-return.

- Saṃyutta Nikāya 46.66, Ānāpāna Sutta
“Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges leans, inclines, and flows towards the east, so too a bhikkhu who develops and makes much of the four jhānas leans, inclines, and flows towards Nirvana.”

- Saṃyutta Nikāya 53.1, Jhāna Sutta
“Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu attains to the first dhyana... second dhyana... third dhyana... fourth dhyana. To this is said the non sensual pleasure, the pleasure of seclusion, appeasement and enlightenment. It should be practised, made much and should not be feared, I say.”

- Majjhima Nikāya 139, Araṇavibhaṅga Sutta
“Mahāli, in one case a bhikkhu becomes a stream enterer. Again, a bhikkhu becomes a once returner... non-returner... arahant.”
“Venerable sir, what is the Path, what is the Way (paṭipadā) for the realisation of these things?” “Mahāli, It is the Noble Eightfold Path, namely, Right View, Right Intention; Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood; Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Samadhi. This is the Path, this is the Way to the realisation of these things.”

- Dīgha Nikāya 6, Mahāli Sutta
“Bhikkhus, what is Right Samadhi? A bhikkhu, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, attains and abides in the first dhyana... second dhyana... third dhyana... fourth dhyana... This is called Right Samadhi.”

- Saṃyutta Nikāya 45.8, Vibhaṅga Sutta
SarathW wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:06 pm
This conclusive ascertainment seems to be a bit overdone.
Agree.
I was aware of that highlighted words and it's problem.
But I gave @Lal the benefit of doubt.
I assume what he meant was mere attention to breath does not lead to Nibbana.
Nowadays people learn breath meditation in fitness centers.
Breath meditation should be practiced in conjunction with Anapanasati to culminate Nibbana.
That assumption wasn't stated in Lal's post and the post was clearly about the Buddhist meditation but not about what Jenny teaches at her yoga class at the street corner! :)
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW »

but not about what Jenny teaches at her yoga class at the street corner! :)
Agree but Lal is the editor of the Pure Dhamma website.
Even though I do not agree with everything on his website he is much better than the Jenny in the street corner.
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

More of useless comments again. But let me just say something about this:
Nibbana means "The knowledge beyond [the bliss (ka) of] breath ".
You seem to be re-inventing Buddha Dhamma. Is that definition anywhere in the Tipitaka? Please provide just ONE reference from the Tipitaka.
- It may be that “your kind of Nibbana” may be realized by breath meditation.

As far as I know, the Buddha defined Nibbana as, “ragakkhayo Nibbanam, dosakkhayo Nibbanam, Mohakkhayo Nibbanam”. That says, “Nibbana is attained by the removal of greed, hate, and ignorance from one’s mind” (and that cannot be done by focusing one’s mind on the breath). A list of suttas where that statement appears: “https://legacy.suttacentral.net/search?query=ragakkhayo

I know there is going to be a long rebuttal with a lot of “scholarly looking” Sanskrit quotes. But as I explained earlier, Sanskrit texts have nothing to do with Buddha Dhamma. So, I will not respond to such rebuttals, nor any other useless comments.

I hope we can focus on having a sensible, logical discussion.

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StormBorn
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by StormBorn »

SarathW wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:04 am
but not about what Jenny teaches at her yoga class at the street corner! :)
Agree but Lal is the editor of the Pure Dhamma website.
Even though I do not agree with everything on his website he is much better than the Jenny in the street corner.
:D
Not necessarily. Jenny does no harm to Buddhism. She just teaches asanas and some breathing exercises to calm the mind. But, Lal, while claiming to be a sotapanna (see It is not that I have faith in Waharaka Thero. He enabled me to get to a state of unshakable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sanhga.) bold enough to disparage the Dhamma saying things like "breath meditation will never lead to Nibbana."
“Bhikkhus, the bhikkhus who explain the non-Dhamma as Dhamma, do it for the loss, injury, and misery of devas and humans. They accrue great demerit and cause the disappearance of this True Dhamma.”

- Aṅguttara Nikāya 1.130, Adhamma Sutta
“Bhikkhus, these two accuse The Buddha. Which two? One who explains what was not said or spoken by The Buddha as said or spoken by The Buddha. And he who explains what was said or spoken by The Buddha as not said or spoken by The Buddha.”

- Aṅguttara Nikāya 2.24, Abhāsita Sutta
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW »

I see your point SB but we have to make a proper discussion on this.
So I create a new post.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=32857
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

@SarathW

Did you not realize that your title for the new thread that you opened could be offensive? You should also realize that it reflects on your character, not mine.

The Buddha himself was attacked in much worse ways. One time he was accused of murdering a prostitute. So, I am not bothered OR swayed by these attacks. I will just ignore them. I have no animosity towards anyone. I just feel sad for what some of these people are doing to themselves.

freedom
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom »

Lal wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:50 pm
@SarathW

Did you not realize that your title for the new thread that you opened could be offensive? You should also realize that it reflects on your character, not mine.

The Buddha himself was attacked in much worse ways. One time he was accused of murdering a prostitute. So, I am not bothered OR swayed by these attacks. I will just ignore them. I have no animosity towards anyone. I just feel sad for what some of these people are doing to themselves.
I really admire SarathW's character. He can agree and disagree without blind belief or anger.

Lost in theory, words without seeing one own's anger, mistakes, defilements, one is heading to disaster. No matter how good we are in theory, how good we can debate, how high we think we are, how many followers we got, if we cannot understand and control ourselves, we know nothing. If we can not see our own mistakes, we have no hope for improving and we really wasted our lives.

The more we see our own mistakes, the more we can correct them and move up. If we do not or unable to see our own mistakes, we have no chance to improve ourselves, and we will definitely fall into trouble soon.

We practice because we are not perfect and have a lot of mistakes; therefore, the more we can see our own mistakes, the better for us.

We should appreciate whoever can point out our mistakes no matter if the accusations are true or not. If our mind is waved in praise and blame, we still have a lot of works to do. If the accusations are true, we are in luck because we can correct them in time. If not, we will also have a chance to examine our own feeling and reaction, and have an opportunity to correct them.

If we are truly good, we do not need to prove for that, there will be people who will see it. If we are bad, even if we try by all means to defend ourselves, there will be people who will see that.

Do we see our own clinging? Can we let it go? Let's try to see our own mistakes so we can untie them.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal »

It is ironic that those who accuse of Waharaka Thero and others of spreading “extremely misleading and dangerous” ideas about Buddha Dhamma are the ones who are actually doing that.

I have pointed out several such cases in this thread. They do not understand what is meant by key words like vinnana, anicca, and more recently I have explained what a nimitta is. Damage to Buddha Dhamma is done when one propagates incorrect meanings for such terms, AND keep quoting Sankrit texts which the Buddha specifically banned in the Vinaya Pitaka. A bhikkhu will be breaking Vinaya rules when they do that, and they keep doing that even after showing the evidence.

Instead of actually making an effort to have an honest discussion, they keep hurling insults and bringing up more issues for debate. The latest issue is breath meditation. So, let me provide evidence against it.

Breath meditation was practiced by yōgis even at the time of the Buddha. He learned it from two yogis (Alara Kalama and Uddaka Rama Putta) and rejected it, because it does not lead to Nibbāna, i.e., PERMANENT relief from suffering. Of course, breath meditation can lead to a calm state of mind AND even jhanas, as the Buddha himself (before the Enlightenment) attained the highest jhanas with that technique before realizing the futility of it for attaining Nibbana.

Those who advocate breath meditation as the way to Nibbana, I have two questions:

1. Is Nibbana described by, “ragakkhayo, dosakkhayo, mohakkhayo”? If not, please state what Nibbana is.

2. If Nibbana is described by, “ragakkhayo, dosakkhayo, mohakkhayo”, please explain how greed, hate, and ignorance can be removed from one’s mind by just focusing one’s mind on the breath.

It is IMPORTANT to note here that the Buddha has explained that ānāpānassati, BY ITSELF, can lead one all the way to the Arahanthood.

According to the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118): “..Ānāpānassati, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūreti. Cattāro satipaṭṭhānā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satta bojjhaṅge paripūrenti. Satta bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā bahulīkatā vijjāvimuttiṃ paripūrenti.”

Translated: “..Ānāpānassati, when used (bhāvitā) and used frequently (bahulīkatā), completes (paripūreti) four types of Satipatthāna. Cattāro satipaṭṭhāna, when used and used frequently, completes Sapta Bojjanga. Sapta Bojjanga when used and used frequently, completes the full release (Nibbāna or Arahanthood)”.

Can anyone explain how breath meditation, BY ITSELF, cultivates Satipatthana and Sapta Bojjanga?

I have explained how the correct Ānāpānassati does that, in detail, at puredhamma.net. Just type "Anapana" in the "Search box" at top right and you will get a list of relevant posts.
Last edited by Lal on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW »

Translated: “..Ānāpānassati, when used (bhāvitā) and used frequently (bahulīkatā), completes (paripūreti) four types of Satipatthāna. Cattāro satipaṭṭhāna, when used and used frequently, completes Sapta Bojjanga. Sapta Bojjanga when used and used frequently, completes the full release (Nibbāna or Arahanthood)”.
:goodpost:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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StormBorn
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by StormBorn »

hsandeepani wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:00 am
SarathW wrote:Ven. Says:
If a person listen to the Dhamma with attention, he is in the first Jhana.
He specially mention the word Savitakka, and Savikara. (Please compare this to Vitakka and Vikara)
At this moment his mind is free from (temporary) attachment, aversion.
Hence he possess Piti and Sukha.

http://www.waharaka.com/deshana/listen. ... d=CD087-11
I don't know how that statement matches with this extract from the suttas :

"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal..."

— AN 5.28
This statement "If a person listen to the Dhamma with attention, he is in the first Jhana." contradicts with the below sutta since listening or hearing sounds are declared by the Buddha as a thorn to the first jhana. Hence, if one has a jhana, there will be no hearing of sounds, and if one hears sounds, then one has no jhana:
“For the first jhana, sounds (saddā) are a thorn.”
- Aṅguttara Nikāya 10.72, Kaṇṭaka Sutta
Some might argue that a thorn means "still might be able to hear some sound while having a jhana". But the same sutta says, “For seclusion, company is a thorn.” This clearly means the thorn and its opposing spiritual factor is mutually exclusive. The sutta talking about several other thorns.

Similarly, worth mentioning the cessation of the speech in the first jhana also.
“Bhikkhu, in him who has attained the first jhana, speech (vācā) has ceased.”
- Saṃyutta Nikāya 36.11, Rahogata Sutta
Last edited by StormBorn on Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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