The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:16 am

Jeremy's quotation of SarathW on jhana:

It is a very short discourse and I can see how SarathW can get confused. Here is a discourse by the Waharaka Thero that discusses samadhi, jhana, and samapatti in detail:
https://waharaka.com/listen/Sadaham-Sakachchaa-01-10

For those who cannot understand Sinhala, here is an introductory post that I published:

Samādhi, Jhāna, Magga Phala – Introduction
October 12, 2017; revised April 28, 2018

1. Apparently, there are a considerable number of people who have attained magga phala (with or without jhāna) recently all over the world. We are indebted to the late Waharaka Thēro for this great awakening by clarifying the correct interpretations of Buddha’s teachings; now many are working tirelessly to make those interpretations available to others; see, “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro“.
- Over the years, I have seen some key issues related to jhāna and magga phala discussed at many online forums, without reaching a definitive conclusion. I hope this series of posts will be of use to settle this matter.
- I will try to put together a consistent picture solely based on material from the Tipitaka. One common problem that I see in online forums is that many people put Tipitaka on the same footing as commentaries (such as Visuddhimagga) written much later by people (non-Ariyas) like Buddhaghosa or Nagarjuna. That leads to confusion because those accounts have many contradictions with the Tipitaka.

2. Samādhi is essential to attain Magga phala. jhāna are a special category samādhi, and are not essential to attain magga phala.
- samādhi (“sama”+”adhi” where “sama” means “same” and “adhi” means “dominance”) means turning the mind towards a certain goal or a state; see, “What is Samādhi? – Three Kinds of Mindfulness“.
- There can be thousands of different types of samādhi. There can be micca samādhi (turning the mind towards immoral or unfruitful goals), as well as Sammā samādhi. For example, a master thief concentrating on making a detailed plan of a robbery will get into a state of samādhi when he is focusing on it intently.

3. What is essential to attain magga phala is Sammā Samādhi. As we have discussed before, there is mundane sammā samādhi that is reached by getting rid of the 10 types of miccā ditthi. Then there is lokōttara Sammā Samādhi that is reached by comprehending Tilakkhana to some extent; see, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart“.
- As discussed in the previous post, “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, Sīla, Samādhi“, one gets to mundane Sammā Samādhi via “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā“. Then one can comprehend the Tilakkhana and follow the Noble Path via ” Pannā, sīla, Samādhi“, with Sammā Ditthi taking the lead.
- There is nowhere in the Tipitaka that says one needs jhāna to attain attain magga phala or Nibbāna.
- Magga phala means one is starting break the bonds (dasa samyōjana) to this world; see, “Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process“. One attains magga phala by getting into lokōttara Sammā Samādhi (samādhi to remove “san“: “san” + “mā“; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“.

4. April 28, 2018: I found a desana by Waharaka Thero where he present clear evidence that jhāna are not necessary to attain magga phala (It is of course in Sinhala language):
- The main point the Thero makes is that we know that there are jāti Sotapannas born in the human realm. But if a jhāna was REQUIRED to attain the Sōtapanna stage, then that person WOULD NOT be born in the human realm, but in a brahma realm corresponding that jhāna.

5. In simple terms, jhāna are mental states existing in the 16 rūpa realms and the 4 arūpa realms. Thus by definition, attaining jhāna has nothing to do with Nibbāna. This can be easily seen in “The 89 (121) Types of Citta“.
- Jhāna fall into two categories (Ariya and anariya) and — depending on the category — could be an asset or hindrance, as we will discuss in this section.
- As discussed in “31 Realms Associated with the Earth” those 20 realms lie above the realms of kāma lōka. Those rūpi and arūpi brahmas enjoy only jhānic pleasures, which are better than sensual pleasures.
- We all have been born in most of the 31 realms (except for the realms reserved for the Anāgāmis) an uncountable times, and thus had attained those jhānic states uncountable times in previous lives.
- As we know, sensual pleasures are present only in kāma lōka (4 apayas including the animal realm, human realm, and the six dēva realms).
Humans can cultivate jhāna by suppressing (anariya) or removing (Ariya) the craving for sensual pleasures (kāma rāga).
- One could approach Nibbāna via Ariya or anariya jhāna; see, “Ascendance to Nibbāna via Jhāna (dhyāna)“.

6. If those brahmas are born there by cultivating mundane jhāna, then kāma rāga remain with them as anusaya (which means deeply hidden). So, when they die and are reborn in the lower realms, those kāma rāga re-surface. The suppression is only during the time they live as brahmas in those higher realms.
- In the same way, those humans who get into jhānas SUPPRESSING kāma rāga can lose the ability to get into jhānas even in this life. The best example from the Tipitaka is Devadatta, who developed not only anāriya (mundane) jhānas but also abhinnā powers, and then lost all that and ended up in an apāya. Even though Devadatta was obviously exposed to correct Tilakkhana (he was ordained by the Buddha himself), he had apparently not grasped them.
- The ability to get into jhāna is also related to our gati (pronounced “gathi”; our habits from past lives). Those who have cultivated mundane jhānas in relatively recent past lives can easily get into mundane jhāna.
- However, if one gets into supramundane jhāna, one has essentially attained the Anāgami stage by removing kāma rāga; see, “Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna“.

7. We will discuss these feature in detail (with Tipitaka references) in several posts in this section.
- There are a series of posts on jhāna (in simpler terms, without too many Pali words) in an older section: “Power of the Human Mind“.
This page could be used as the “landing page” for this section. I will keep updating it as I incorporate more issues relevant to this topic.

Here is the link to the section on this subject: https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/sa ... gga-phala/

sentinel
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by sentinel » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:17 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:16 am

one gets to mundane Sammā Samādhi via “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā“. Then one can comprehend the Tilakkhana and follow the Noble Path via ” Pannā, sīla, Samādhi“, with Sammā Ditthi taking the lead.
- There is nowhere in the Tipitaka that says one needs jhāna to attain attain magga phala or Nibbāna.
Can you define mundane and lokuttara samma samadhi ? In which sutta mention about both ?
Sammā Ditthi meaning ?
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:01 pm

James Tan asked:
Can you define mundane and lokuttara samma samadhi ? In which sutta mention about both ?
Sammā Ditthi meaning ?
Mundane and lokottara paths with two types of samma ditthi are discussed in the Mahā­cat­tārīsa­ka Sutta (MN 117). Sutta Central translation at:
"https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato"

My discussion at, "https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpreta ... eat-forty/".
- Two types of Sammā Ditthi discussed there.

sentinel
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by sentinel » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:31 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:01 pm
James Tan asked:
Can you define mundane and lokuttara samma samadhi ? In which sutta mention about both ?
Sammā Ditthi meaning ?
Mundane and lokottara paths with two types of samma ditthi are discussed in the Mahā­cat­tārīsa­ka Sutta (MN 117). Sutta Central translation at:
"https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato"

My discussion at, "https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpreta ... eat-forty/".
- Two types of Sammā Ditthi discussed there.
I don't think Mn117 ever explain mundane right samadhi ? Only noble right samadhi .
Right view is second question .
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:14 pm

James Tan said:
I don't think Mn117 ever explain mundane right samadhi ? Only noble right samadhi .
It really does not matter what each of us individually think, does it? If one wants to understand Buddha Dhamma, one needs to understand what the Buddha taught in the Suttas. It would be beneficial to take time to read the analyses. Of course you can come up with your own translation too. But the most important thing is that any interpretation MUST be consistent with the other suttas in the Tipitaka too.

I keep saying we should not make just statements. Make a case for your statement. What does that sutta say, as you understand?

From the Sutta Central translation of the sutta: "Right view is twofold, I say. There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment. And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path. "

If you read either translation carefully, you will be able to see that there are two each of the 8 steps in eightfold path: one is mundane (getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi and comprehending Tilakkhana), and then one starts on the Noble Eightfold Path.

By the way, those who are trying to understand what is meant by Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta): One MUST get rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi first. That is what happens in the mundane path. Then once one STARTS comprehending anicca, dukkha, anatta (real nature of this world or the characteristics of this world), one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami and starts on the Noble Path; that transition will happen automatically.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:26 pm

The main point the Thero makes is that we know that there are jāti Sotapannas born in the human realm.
There is no Sutta support for Sotapanna was born as a human.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:33 pm

Can you define mundane and lokuttara samma samadhi ?
This is a hard question as Jhana and Samadhi have some co-relation.
There is Samadhi Sutta and Jhana Sutta.
My understanding is Jhana is mundane Samadhi and Vipassana is lokuttara Samma Samadhi.
There is no Sutta support for the above statement.

There were many discussions in this form on this subject without a proper conclusion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:13 am

SarathW said:
This is a hard question as Jhana and Samadhi have some co-relation...There were many discussions in this forum on this subject without a proper conclusion.
That is not surprising. Different people keep quoting (incorrect or incomplete translations by "scholars") and that goes on without reaching any consensus. One has to start with solid fundamentals and build on that. That is why I suggested a format a couple of days ago.

I have made those concepts (samadhi, jhana, magga phala) clear, per my post this morning and the links provided there. Please feel free to point out anything that is not clear. But PLEASE don't just make statements. Quote from my writings and point out WHY it is not correct (or why it is not clear). That is how we can make progress.

sentinel
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by sentinel » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:35 am

Lal wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:14 pm
James Tan said:
I don't think Mn117 ever explain mundane right samadhi ? Only noble right samadhi .
It really does not matter what each of us individually think, does it? If one wants to understand Buddha Dhamma, one needs to understand what the Buddha taught in the Suttas. It would be beneficial to take time to read the analyses. Of course you can come up with your own translation too. But the most important thing is that any interpretation MUST be consistent with the other suttas in the Tipitaka too.

I keep saying we should not make just statements. Make a case for your statement. What does that sutta say, as you understand?

From the Sutta Central translation of the sutta: "Right view is twofold, I say. There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment. And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path. "

If you read either translation carefully, you will be able to see that there are two each of the 8 steps in eightfold path: one is mundane (getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi and comprehending Tilakkhana), and then one starts on the Noble Eightfold Path.

By the way, those who are trying to understand what is meant by Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta): One MUST get rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi first. That is what happens in the mundane path. Then once one STARTS comprehending anicca, dukkha, anatta (real nature of this world or the characteristics of this world), one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami and starts on the Noble Path; that transition will happen automatically.

What are you talking about ? It is Not what I think ? Please read carefully what I wrote .

BTW , if everyone thinking is not important , why should your explanation or Venerable explanation being presented here in the forum .
You are talking about your own interpretation which is following your teacher explanation .

But , this is your Version of understanding .

Not necessarily the Buddha original message .


If you read carefully Mn117, the noble 8 right path only consist of Noble Right Samadhi , there is no mention of Mundane Right Samadhi .


Please take note this is not my translation or interpretation .

Please notice that First 7 right path is times 2 = 14 , (Mundane and Noble) , once accomplished will arrive at , the Noble Right Samadhi !


But, there is No mentioning of Mundane Right Samadhi as you mentioned earlier above posts .



Please Read again Mn117. I am sure you missed something out .
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:06 am

You are talking about your own interpretation which is following your teacher explanation .
I think it is a good practice to qualify personal comments as personal comments.
You can see this rules is followed by monks such as Bhikkhu Bodhi.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:07 am

James Tan said:
But, there is No mentioning of Mundane Right Samadhi as you mentioned in earlier above posts. Please Read again Mn117. I am sure you missed something out.
1. Buddha dhamma is structured to be presented via a method called, “uddesa, niddesa, patiniddesa”. A fundamental concept is first stated (“uddesa” or “utterance”); then it is described in a summarized way (“niddesa” or “brief explanation”), and then it is described in detail (“patiniddesa” means explaining in detail with examples to clarify difficult or "knotty" points).
• For example, “ye dhammā hetuppabbavā..” is uddesa, where the fundamental characteristics of “this world” are just stated, i.e., everything in this world arises due to causes.
• In the niddesa version, paticca samuppada is “avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana,.........” (all 11 steps): How causes lead to effects is stated succinctly.
• In contrast, in a discourse or a desana, it is the patiniddesa version of explanation: detailed explanation with examples.

2. Most suttas are in uddesa or niddesa versions (digha nikaya may be an exception). They need to be explained in detail. Translating word-by-word is not appropriate in many instances.
• For example, “anicca, dukkha, anatta” is discussed only in the niddesa version in Dhamma cakka pavattana sutta and Anatta lakkhana sutta.
• However, each sutta took many hours to deliver, and it was not possible to condense all that information in a sutta for mostly oral transmission that was available at the time. Each sutta was made into a condensed form most likely by the Buddha himself.

The above is from a post where I discussed this issue of interpreting suttas. A key problem today is the practice of translating a given sutta just word-by-word, without paying attention to the key message embedded in the sutta.

The name of the MN 117 is “Great Forty”. One first needs to know where 40 comes from. There are 8 steps in the eightfold path, but two more needed to attain the Arahant stage: Sammā Ñāna and Sammā Vimutti. So, altogether there are 10 factors. I have explained this earlier.
So, for the mundane and lokottara paths, there are 10 factors each.

In the same way, in the “wrong path” there are two possible: one will most of the 10 types of mica ditthi and another with a few mica ditthi remaining. This is not explained in detail in the sutta. As I explained above, a given sutta cannot explain everything. We need to remember that these suttas were designed for oral transmission.

From the sutta:Iti kho, bhikkhave, vīsati kusalapakkhā, vīsati akusalapakkhā—mahācattārīsako dhammapariyāyo pavattito appaṭivattiyo samaṇena vā brāhmaṇena vā devena vā mārena vā brahmunā vā kenaci vā lokasmiṃ".
- vīsati kusalapakkhā means 20 on the kusala side, vīsati akusalapakkhā means 20 on the akusala side. mahācattārīsako dhammapariyāyo means pointing out the importance of the 40 factors which is the dhammatā.

The next verse is: “Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā imaṃ mahācattārīsakaṃ dhammapariyāyaṃ garahitabbaṃ paṭikkositabbaṃ maññeyya tassa diṭṭheva dhamme dasasahadhammikā vādānuvādā gārayhaṃ ṭhānaṃ āgacchanti—”

From Sutta Central translation itself: “If any ascetic or brahmin imagines they can criticize and reject the exposition of the teaching on the Great Forty, they deserve rebuke and criticism on ten legitimate grounds in the present life.”
- Translation of this verse is of course correct. It is just that the overall message of the sutta is not clear because the sutta has been translated word-by-word.

So, a given sutta MAY need to be explained in detail. Just translating word-by-word COULD lead to confusion (or at least not being able to extract the key message in the sutta). This sutta is a good example.

sentinel
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by sentinel » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:32 am

Lal wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:07 am
James Tan said:
But, there is No mentioning of Mundane Right Samadhi as you mentioned in earlier above posts. Please Read again Mn117. I am sure you missed something out.
1. Buddha dhamma is structured to be presented via a method called, “uddesa, niddesa, patiniddesa”. A fundamental concept is first stated (“uddesa” or “utterance”); then it is described in a summarized way (“niddesa” or “brief explanation”), and then it is described in detail (“patiniddesa” means explaining in detail with examples to clarify difficult or "knotty" points).
• For example, “ye dhammā hetuppabbavā..” is uddesa, where the fundamental characteristics of “this world” are just stated, i.e., everything in this world arises due to causes.
• In the niddesa version, paticca samuppada is “avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana,.........” (all 11 steps): How causes lead to effects is stated succinctly.
• In contrast, in a discourse or a desana, it is the patiniddesa version of explanation: detailed explanation with examples.

2. Most suttas are in uddesa or niddesa versions (digha nikaya may be an exception). They need to be explained in detail. Translating word-by-word is not appropriate in many instances.
• For example, “anicca, dukkha, anatta” is discussed only in the niddesa version in Dhamma cakka pavattana sutta and Anatta lakkhana sutta.
• However, each sutta took many hours to deliver, and it was not possible to condense all that information in a sutta for mostly oral transmission that was available at the time. Each sutta was made into a condensed form most likely by the Buddha himself.

The above is from a post where I discussed this issue of interpreting suttas. A key problem today is the practice of translating a given sutta just word-by-word, without paying attention to the key message embedded in the sutta.

The name of the MN 117 is “Great Forty”. One first needs to know where 40 comes from. There are 8 steps in the eightfold path, but two more needed to attain the Arahant stage: Sammā Ñāna and Sammā Vimutti. So, altogether there are 10 factors. I have explained this earlier.
So, for the mundane and lokottara paths, there are 10 factors each.

In the same way, in the “wrong path” there are two possible: one will most of the 10 types of mica ditthi and another with a few mica ditthi remaining. This is not explained in detail in the sutta. As I explained above, a given sutta cannot explain everything. We need to remember that these suttas were designed for oral transmission.

From the sutta:Iti kho, bhikkhave, vīsati kusalapakkhā, vīsati akusalapakkhā—mahācattārīsako dhammapariyāyo pavattito appaṭivattiyo samaṇena vā brāhmaṇena vā devena vā mārena vā brahmunā vā kenaci vā lokasmiṃ".
- vīsati kusalapakkhā means 20 on the kusala side, vīsati akusalapakkhā means 20 on the akusala side. mahācattārīsako dhammapariyāyo means pointing out the importance of the 40 factors which is the dhammatā.

The next verse is: “Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā imaṃ mahācattārīsakaṃ dhammapariyāyaṃ garahitabbaṃ paṭikkositabbaṃ maññeyya tassa diṭṭheva dhamme dasasahadhammikā vādānuvādā gārayhaṃ ṭhānaṃ āgacchanti—”

From Sutta Central translation itself: “If any ascetic or brahmin imagines they can criticize and reject the exposition of the teaching on the Great Forty, they deserve rebuke and criticism on ten legitimate grounds in the present life.”
- Translation of this verse is of course correct. It is just that the overall message of the sutta is not clear because the sutta has been translated word-by-word.

So, a given sutta MAY need to be explained in detail. Just translating word-by-word COULD lead to confusion (or at least not being able to extract the key message in the sutta). This sutta is a good example.

It doesn't have to do with translation word by word, or detail or not detail .
The sutta of great forty has
Nothing to do with Mundane Right Samadhi !
Only Noble Right Samadhi !
The forty doesn’t include the Mundane Right Samadhi .
That means you misunderstood the sutta .


But , nvm, at least now you know missing what .

Good luck .
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:38 am

James Tan said:
The forty doesn’t include the Mundane Right Samadhi .
That means you misunderstood the sutta .
OK. Please list the those 40. I have listed them.

sentinel
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by sentinel » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:24 pm

Lal wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:38 am
James Tan said:
The forty doesn’t include the Mundane Right Samadhi .
That means you misunderstood the sutta .
OK. Please list the those 40. I have listed them.
No , you should list out where in the sutta the mundane right samadhi as you are the one said it ?
Then I will agree with you .
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

Lal
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:36 pm

James Tan said:
No , you should list out where in the sutta the mundane right samadhi as you are the one said it ?
Then I will agree with you .
Apparently you really don't want to read the sutta. It is here:
"Tatra, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi pubbaṅgamā hoti. Kathañca, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi pubbaṅgamā hoti? Sammādiṭṭhissa, bhikkhave, micchādiṭṭhi nijjiṇṇā hoti. Ye ca micchā­diṭṭhi­pac­cayā aneke pāpakā akusalā dhammā sambhavanti te cassa nijjiṇṇā honti. Sammā­diṭṭhi­pac­cayā aneke kusalā dhammā bhāva­nā­pāri­pūriṃ gacchanti. Sam­māsaṅkap­passa, bhikkhave, micchāsaṅkappo nijjiṇṇo hoti … pe … sammāvācassa, bhikkhave, micchāvācā nijjiṇṇā hoti … sammā­kamman­tassa, bhikkhave, micchākammanto nijjiṇṇo hoti … sammāājīvassa, bhikkhave, micchāājīvo nijjiṇṇo hoti … sammāvāyāmassa, bhikkhave, micchāvāyāmo nijjiṇṇo hoti … sammāsatissa, bhikkhave, micchāsati nijjiṇṇā hoti … sammā­samā­dhissa, bhikkhave, micchāsamādhi nijjiṇṇo hoti … sammāñāṇassa, bhikkhave, micchāñāṇaṃ nijjiṇṇaṃ hoti … sammā­vimuttassa, bhikkhave, micchāvimutti nijjiṇṇā hoti. Ye ca micchā­vimutti­pac­cayā aneke pāpakā akusalā dhammā sambhavanti te cassa nijjiṇṇā honti. Sammā­vimutti­pac­cayā ca aneke kusalā dhammā bhāva­nā­pāri­pūriṃ gacchanti."

This verse describes how one gets rid of the micca ditthi and gets to mundane samma samadhi.

This is not about winning a debate. Instead of trying to put down an explanation by nitpicking, one should think whether a given explanation makes sense, and whether it is consistent with everything else.

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