The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:45 pm

The best way to get the correct meaning of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta is to evaluate each meaning in conjunction with all other two.
If Aniica means impermanence will that be fitting to Dukkha and Anatta etc
Another point is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are related to the mental states not for the physical objects.
Your comments appreciated.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:08 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:36 pm
Coemgenu said:
Also you introduced a new claim, namely, that the original commentaries were "destroyed", but maybe you simply meant they were lost to time.
Who on earth would "destroy" the original commentaries?
Again, you are picking on a small detail, not the overall picture.
I did not mean to emphasize the fact that during 277-304 CE, Mahāvihāra (which had been the center of Buddha Dhamma with a seven-story library) was burnt to the ground. It is documented in the following post. But the point is that this was when most of the Sinhala Atthakatha were lost. We need to understand that there were no printing presses at that time as I pointed in an earlier post; those texts were hand written on specially prepared leaves. Luckily there were few copies of the Tipitaka spread across the island in bits and pieces. If one needs to get a good idea, one should read the references given in the following post, which copy from the website (more posts at "https://puredhamma.net/historical-background/"):

Incorrect Thēravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline
April 29, 2017

1. Degradation of Thēravada Buddha Dhamma occurred gradually over the past 1500 years, but two drastic changes took place during that time: (i) Buddhaghōsa’s introduction of Hindu meditation techniques 1500 years ago, (ii) misinterpretation of anicca and anatta by the European scholars when they translated both Tipitaka and Visuddhimagga to English in the late 1800’s.
Buddhists in Sri Lanka have been translating anicca and anatta into Sanskrit as "anitya" and "anātma" since at least 400AD. 1400 years before Westerners ever read a Buddhist text. The Sanskrit Early Buddhist texts also come from Sri Lanka. The texts that were translated into Chinese in the 500s AD were also retrieved from Sri Lanka in the 400s AD, and those texts are translated according to the same convention as the Sanskritic texts.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:27 pm

Coemgenu said:
Buddhists in Sri Lanka have been translating anicca and anatta into Sanskrit as "anitya" and "anātma" since at least 400AD. 1400 years before Westerners ever read a Buddhist text. The Sanskrit Early Buddhist texts also come from Sri Lanka. The texts that were translated into Chinese in the 500s AD were also retrieved from Sri Lanka in the 400s AD, and those texts are translated according to the same convention as the Sanskritic texts.
Yes. The translation to Sanskrit was done incorrectly from the beginning, when Mahayana was initiated in India around the first century. That is what the Europeans also picked up. But they were not distorted in Sri Lanka, except by the Abhayagiri sector as I mentioned in the previous post.

Anyway, I will make another post to clarify this issue, and to respond to the post by Mike.

I have already explained anicca, dukkha, anatta many times, per post by SarathW.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:40 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:27 pm
Coemgenu said:
Buddhists in Sri Lanka have been translating anicca and anatta into Sanskrit as "anitya" and "anātma" since at least 400AD. 1400 years before Westerners ever read a Buddhist text. The Sanskrit Early Buddhist texts also come from Sri Lanka. The texts that were translated into Chinese in the 500s AD were also retrieved from Sri Lanka in the 400s AD, and those texts are translated according to the same convention as the Sanskritic texts.
Yes. The translation to Sanskrit was done incorrectly from the beginning, when Mahayana was initiated in India around the first century. That is what the Europeans also picked up. But they were not distorted in Sri Lanka, except by the Abhayagiri sector as I mentioned in the previous post.

Anyway, I will make another post to clarify this issue, and to respond to the post by Mike.

I have already explained anicca, dukkha, anatta many times, per post by SarathW.
First it was Westerners in the 1800s. Now it's Mahāyānikāḥ in the 100s. Your sect should make up its mind on its alternative historical narratives.

The translations into Sanskrit were not done by Mahāyānikāḥ. Abhyagrihivihāra housed both śrāvaka and bodhisattva pracitioners, and practice as well as study was undertaken there of both Sanskrit texts and Prākrit texts, like the Pāli recensions.

Indian histories as well as those of neighbouring nations do not indicate that the Mahāvihāra was ever destroyed. It housed 3000 monks in 414AD. The tale of it's complete destruction is only substantiated in the Mahāvaṃsa. This text also makes the ahistorical claim that the Buddha visited Sri Lanka, so why rely on it so much?
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:54 pm

The Sarvāstivāda, who were not Mahāyānikāḥ, for instance, also translated in accordance with the mainstream Buddhist tradition. Anitya, anātma.

The same goes for every single one of the myriad schools of Early Buddhism.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:56 pm

I'm waiting for you to ask for substantiation. There is a lot of it.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:05 am

Coemgenu said:
The Sarvāstivāda, who were not Mahāyānikāḥ, for instance, also translated in accordance with the mainstream Buddhist tradition. Anitya, anātma
One needs to spend some time on reading up on the historical background. I cannot write down every single detail in a post or even a few posts. In any case, I am not here to participate in a debate. I have provided enough material for those who are interested to get started.

For the last time, the big picture:

Pali Tipitaka has not changed significantly since it was composed just 3 months after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. It remains the same after it was written down around 5 BCE.

The Tipitaka was translated to Sanskrit may be even few hundred years after the Parinibbana of the Buddha, probably around the time of the rise of Mahayana around the first century CE; see, “https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana".

Buddha Dhamma in Sri Lanka was influenced by these Mahayana teachings (with anitya and anathma) via the Abhayagiri sector, but the original teachings prevailed in Sri Lanka due to the efforts by Mahavihara bhikkhus until the invasions by Portuguese, Dutch and English.

As discussed in the previous post, one King in Sri Lanka took the side of the Abhyagiri and burned down the original buildings of the Mahavihara, together with its 7-story library. It was rebuilt by the next King, but the Sinhala Atthakatha were lost.

After several centuries of Western domination, Buddha Dhamma degraded and it was revived by the English civil servants in the 1800’s. But what they re-established was based on the incorrect interpretation of anicca and anatta to be anitya and anathma.

However, I am not going to participate on this “debate” focusing on this particular issue. That will only veer the discussion off the main objective. You can decide whatever you want and I have no problem with that. I am stating facts for those who would listen and think rationally. As I said, it will take some serious reading to understand the time evolution of Buddha Dhamma.

The real question is what the Buddha meant by anicca and anatta, and other key concepts like anapana meditation and paticca samuppada. So, I would stick to the guidelines that were posted yesterday. Maybe I do need to discuss a bit more on anicca and anatta to make this point. I will do that next.

Establishing the fact that anicca and anatta have nothing to do with the Sanskrit words anitya and anathma will make it unnecessary to have a debate on WHEN these changes happened.

No one has contested the fact that Visuddhimagga of Buddhaghosa is not to be taken seriously. That is good progress at least.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:10 am

Lal wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:05 am
Coemgenu said:
The Sarvāstivāda, who were not Mahāyānikāḥ, for instance, also translated in accordance with the mainstream Buddhist tradition. Anitya, anātma
One needs to spend some time on reading up on the historical background. I cannot write down every single detail in a post or even a few posts. In any case, I am not here to participate in a debate. I have provided enough material for those who are interested to get started.

For the last time, the big picture:

Pali Tipitaka has not changed significantly since it was composed just 3 months after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. It remains the same after it was written down around 5 BCE.

The Tipitaka was translated to Sanskrit may be even few hundred years after the Parinibbana of the Buddha, probably around the time of the rise of Mahayana around the first century CE; see, “https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana".
This is incorrect. The dhamma was in Sanskrit before anyone had even dreamed of Mahāyāna. The Sarvāstivāda and other early Buddhist schools had Sanskrit and Prākrit canons.

It is unreasonable to believe that such a significant doctrinal difference in how anatta was translated would never be discussed in the numerous debates that ancient Theravādins had with the Sarvāstivāda, who are the Sabbatthivāda in Pāli.

Why did the Pāli masters never reprimand the Sabbatthivāda on this very significant issue?

Occam's razor, they didn't. They didn't disagree with the Sabbatthivāda as to how to properly read anatta.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:24 am

This is an important post that should be read carefully especially by bhikkhus. Translating Tipitaka to Sanskrit was specifically prohibited by the Buddha, and that is in the Vinaya Pitaka. Breaking a Vinaya rule is a serious offense for a bhikkhu.

First, the main reason for this is that Sanskrit is a language with "musical tones". Many Sanskrit words are derived from Pali words. Many Pali words have their meanings in the word itself. Anatta (na atta) and paticca samuppada (pati icca sama uppada) are two examples, and I have given many examples at puredhamma.net. Sanskrit words have impressive sounds, but no embedded meaning. For example, Pratītyasamutpāda is the Sanskrit word for paticca samuppada and while it sounds impressive, does not convey any meaning: "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%A ... tp%C4%81da".

During the time of the Buddha, there were two Brahmins by the names of Yameḷa and Kekuṭa who were experts on the Vedic Texts; they became bhikkhus and asked the Buddha whether they should translate the Pali suttas to Sanskrit.

That is when the Buddha admonished them that Sanskrit was a language with musical overtones developed by the high-minded Brahmins and thus it was not possible to convey the true meanings of Maghadhi (Pali) words in Sanskrit; see, http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Chulavagga_5.33. I have discussed this in #12 of "Misintepretation of Anicca and Anatta by Early European Scholars", but it seems those who are commenting have not read that carefully. So, I am going to discuss it in even more detail here. Here is the Pali from "https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/pi-tv-kd15", towards the end of the text there:

Tena kho pana samayena yameḷakekuṭā nāma bhikkhū dve bhātikā honti brāhmaṇajātikā kalyāṇavācā kalyā­ṇa­vākka­raṇā. Te yena bhagavā tenu­pasaṅka­miṃsu, upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdiṃsu. Ekamantaṃ nisinnā kho te bhikkhū bhagavantaṃ etadavocuṃ—“etarahi, bhante, bhikkhū nānānāmā nānāgottā nānājaccā nānākulā pabbajitā. Te sakāya niruttiyā buddhavacanaṃ dūsenti. Handa mayaṃ, bhante, buddhavacanaṃ chandaso āropemā”ti. Vigarahi buddho bhagavā … pe … kathañhi nāma tumhe, moghapurisā, evaṃ vakkhatha—“handa mayaṃ, bhante, buddhavacanaṃ chandaso āropemā”ti. Netaṃ, moghapurisā, appasannānaṃ vā pasādāya … pe … vigarahitvā … pe … dhammiṃ kathaṃ katvā bhikkhū āmantesi—“na, bhikkhave, buddhavacanaṃ chandaso āropetabbaṃ. Yo āropeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassa. Anujānāmi, bhikkhave, sakāya niruttiyā buddhavacanaṃ pariyāpuṇitun”ti.

Translation from the above site "http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Chulavagga_5.33": "Now at that time there were two brothers, Bhikkhus, by name Yamelu and Tekula, Brahmans(priests) by birth, excelling in speech, excelling in pronunciation. These went up to the place where the Lord Buddha was, and when they had come there, they saluted the Lord Buddha, and took their seats on one side. And so sitting those Bhikkhus spoke to the Lord Buddha thus:
'At the present time, Lord, Bhikkhus, differing in name, differing in lineage, differing in birth, differing in family, have gone forth (from the world). These corrupt the word of the Buddhas by (repeating it in) their own dialect. Let us, Lord, put the word of the Buddhas into (Sanskrit) verse.'
The key phrase at the end: "'You are not, O Bhikkhus, to put the word of the Buddhas into (Sanskrit) verse. Whosoever does so, shall be guilty of a dukkata. I allow you, O Bhikkhus, to learn the word of the Buddhas each in his own dialect.'

In the SuttaCentral English translation, the Pali word for Sanskrit (chandasa) is translated incorrectly as just, “metrical”; see, “https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd15”.

Two more critical points:

As I repeatedly pointed out, the words anitya --which does mean impermanence -- does not appear at all in the Tipitaka. The Pali words for impermanence are adduwan and aniyata. It was this second word, aniyata, that was converted to Sanskrit as anitya.

I don't think the word anāthma (or anātma) --which is related to soul or self -- appears in the Pali Tipitaka. Even if it does, it would never be used in the same sense as anatta. But of course, anatta was "Sankritized" as anāthma, with the distorted meaning.

Therefore, it does not serve any purpose to quote any Sanskrit texts to clarify terms or concepts in the Tipitaka. By the way, Tipitaka was also "Sankritized" as Tripitaka. One can see the musical overtones in all these the "Sankritized" words.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:10 pm

Why did the Pāli masters never reprimand the Sabbatthivāda on this very significant issue?
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by freedom » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:03 pm

We know the taste/smell of a fruit only if we actually taste/smell it. Once we carefully taste/smell it, we will have no more doubt. We cannot know the taste/smell of it by analyzing the words of others who described its taste/smell or by our intellectual understanding.

What we think we know by analyzing, comparing the words of others or by our intellectual understanding are just what we accepted or believed. They are views, not actual knowing or truth.

Views are used as guides, suggestions, hypothesis. Not as facts, truth or actual knowing, and we should not cling to them. Otherwise, we will suffer or get lost.

If we cling to our views, we will be lost to its words, ideas and will never see the truth. So sad!

Dhamma is visible here and now. If we cannot see and experience it, we are lost and we will need to re-examine what we think we knew.

Simply look at what are dear to us. Look carefully to what we do not want to lose or what we do not want to have any trouble such as: "my wife, my daughter, my followers, my body, my mom, my beautiful house,..."

Can we see those? Can we have any experiences with them? Are they visible here and now?

Look carefully into our dear ones and see why will we lose them even if we really love them no matter how bad they are?
Look carefully into our dear ones and see why will we lose them even if they are really benefit to us?
Look carefully into our dear ones and see why will we lose them even if they are our happiness?


Is that because:

We know that they cannot be maintained to our satisfaction in the long run?
We know that they have no benefit to us?
We know that they cannot bring permanent happiness in the long run?

(Do we see that these views are based on desires? rooted from desires?)

Or simply because of the impermanence nature of all things?

When we lost our dear ones (or our happiness), what will happen to us?
Do those dear ones (or happiness) really belong to us? Can we keep them with us forever?...

Clinging to views, lost in the sea of words, languages, theories,...we forgot ourselves, we do not see ourselves, we do not see our own sufferings, and we are lost!
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Jeremy » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:59 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:39 am
Very controversial teaching from Ven. A
He says the men who are involve with protecting and law enforcement of masses may involve with killing and torcher the enemies etc.
Killing and torcher is an unwholesome act however it is less unwholesome due to the wholesome intent.
It appears these law enforcement men will be re-born as world protecting Devas. (Lokapala Deva)
So becoming a law enforcement officer is not that bad as far as you act on right intent. :shrug:

http://www.waharaka.com/deshana/listen. ... d=CD097-33" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This goes against The Warrior Sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Jeremy » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:09 pm
Ven Says:
Doubt (Vicikitcha) does not mean doubt.
What it means is ignoring the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
Doubt about re-birth, Nibbana is not considered as doubt.
It comes under the investigation.
Ignoring re-birth and Nibbana considered as doubt.

http://www.waharaka.com/deshana/listen. ... d=CD087-09
There are many suttas that define doubt a s skepticism, but not in rebirth or nibbana, it is doubt towards the Buddha's attainment and the 4 NT

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Jeremy » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:10 pm
Ven. Says:
If a person listen to the Dhamma with attention, he is in the first Jhana.
He specially mention the word Savitakka, and Savikara. (Please compare this to Vitakka and Vikara)
At this moment his mind is free from (temporary) attachment, aversion.
Hence he possess Piti and Sukha.

http://www.waharaka.com/deshana/listen. ... d=CD087-11
If one listens to Dhamma with thorough attention i.e. yonisomansakara then the hindrances are reduced, if one actually attained pitti and sukkha then they would not be interested in sense desires, so no Jhana has not been attained

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:47 am

Jeremy said:
This goes against The Warrior Sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I just listened to the discourse that SarathW posted, where SarathW said:
Very controversial teaching from Ven. A
He says the men who are involve with protecting and law enforcement of masses may involve with killing and torcher the enemies etc.
The Thero never says anything like that in the discourse. That is a very unfair misstatement by SarathW.
Specifically, no killing or torture even mentioned. The Thero was talking about law-enforcement type (modern day policemen, for example) who try their best to protect common people from criminals.

There is nothing in that discourse that is inconsistent with the sutta that Jeremy quoted.

SarathW: Please be careful about making such statements. Ariya upavada (making false accusations against Noble Persons) is an offense that can block Nibbana for those who engage in it.

I just saw that Jeremy posted more quotes from SarathW. I may not have time to listen to them tonight. But I will take a look at them when I have time.

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