The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:22 pm

My biggest concern about your understanding about is the teaching of Anicca.
Has the Buddha said anywhere in a sutta that suffering arises due to impermanence (the Pali word is "adduwan"). Impermanence (adduwan) is only one of MANY characteristics associated with the anicca nature.

But the key word associated with dukkha is "icca". Not getting what one wants is "anicca": "na" + "icca".

In the Dhammacakappavattana Sutta: "yampiccam ( "yam pi iccam) na labhati tampi dukkham" or "dukkha arises because one does not get what one wants". Of course this refers to LONG TERM, in the rebirth process.

This was further explained by Ven. Sariputta in MN 141" :"Katamañcāvuso, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ? Jātidhammānaṃ, āvuso, sattānaṃ evaṃ icchā uppajjati: ‘aho vata mayaṃ na jātidhammā assāma; na ca vata no jāti āgaccheyyā’ti. Na kho panetaṃ icchāya pattabbaṃ. Idampi: ‘yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ’."

Here is another sutta: https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/sn1.69:
Kenassu bajjhatī loko,
kissa vinayāya muccati;
Kissassu vippahānena,
sabbaṃ chindati bandhanan
”ti.

Icchāya bajjhatī loko,
icchāvinayāya muccati;
Icchāya vippahānena,
sabbaṃ chindati bandhanan”ti
.

That is the whole sutta. “Icchāya bajjhatī loko" means " The world is bound by icca".
"Icchāya vippahānena" means getting rid of icca or tanha is the KEY to Nibbana.
How many suttas do you need to convince yourself? There are many.

Do you believe the suttas or the wrong interpretations by some bhikkhus?

Can you refer to a single sutta that says anicca is "impermanence"?

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:15 am

But the key word associated with dukkha is "icca".
I still can't match my understanding of Anicca with Dukkha.
However, there are three types of Dukkha.
Dukkha Dukkha and Viparinama Dukka match your interpretation but not the Sankhara Dukkha.
Not getting what you need is not Sankhara Dukka.
Interpreting Dukkha as not getting what you want is run of the mill understanding.
You don't need Buddha to understand it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:34 am

Dukkha Dukkha and Viparinama Dukka match your interpretation but not the Sankhara Dukkhay
There was nothing for me to “interpret”. Isn’t it in the exact words in the sutta? “yam pi iccam na labhati tampi dukkham”. There is no need for any “interpretation”, as long as you know the meanings of those Pali words.
- By the way, icca, tanha, and asava are all related words. Nibbana is also explained as "asavakkhaya", removal of asava.

We also need to remember that this was the first sutta delivered by the Buddha, where he introduced how suffering (dukkha) arises.

It is amazing to me that some people cling to their wrong views no matter how much evidence is presented. Anyway, at least some others may benefit from this discussion.

Actually, sankhara dukkha is the easiest to understand (if you understand what sankhara means). As I explained in a previous post here, sankhara (especially mano and vaci sankhara) are one’s thoughts. One makes plans and then strives (kaya sankhara, which involve more thoughts) to gain material things only because one has the perception that one can gain happiness that way. But all those plans eventually will be fruitless. No matter how much money one makes, for example, one has to leave all that behind when one dies.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:41 am

one dies
Isn't this the Anicca?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:35 am

one dies
Isn't this the Anicca?
How naive!
In the Samyutta Nikāya (Anicca Vagga), many suttas including Ajjhattanicca Sutta, Bahiranicca Sutta, and Yadanicca sutta, the Buddha stated that the three characteristics of “this world” are RELATED to each other:

yadaniccam tan dukkham, yam dukkham tadanattā” (“yad aniccam tam dukkham, yam dukkham tad anattā“), i.e.,

“if something is anicca, dukkha (suffering) arises, therefore anatta (i.e., one becomes helpless)".

All kinds of suffering, jara, marana, soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, arise due to anicca nature.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:48 pm

@Lal
What I am saying is even if you get what you want it is still Dukkha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:14 am

What I am saying is even if you get what you want it is still Dukkha.
Yes. That is true, because at the end you have to leave it behind when you die. But most people are happy with working hard as long as they get immediate benefits in terms of wealth, fame, etc. That suffering (working hard and also being stressed out) is masked because of the anticipated benefits within this life.

The deeper point is that we have to look at this in terms of the rebirth process. We have been trapped in this rebirth process, because we had never before thought about this anicca nature for the long-term. No matter how much wealth, how many titles, etc one acquires, one will have to leave all that behind at death. Then (if one is fortunate enough to be born human again), one will start over and do the same.
- But one will be totally helpless if born in the animal realm or worse.
- Even if one is born in a deva or brahma realm, that again is temporary in the samsaric time scale.

Of course, the biggest issue is that the Buddha said that one spends most of the rebirth process in the lowest four realms (apayas).
That is the anicca nature – all our struggles for happiness in this world are not only fruitless, but can only lead to more suffering: At the end, the net result is much more suffering than any temporary happiness in human or higher realms.

When one realizes that one will strive to attain Nibbana. When one attains Nibbana (Arahanthood), rebirth process stops, and the “net suffering” stops FOREVER.

This is the key message of the Buddha. Of course, many people don’t take it seriously.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:30 am

Yes.
Then what is Dukkha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:39 am

Then what is Dukkha?
I think I have explained dukkha (suffering) in detail many times, including in the previous post.
What do you mean by dukkha?

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:36 am

But the key word associated with dukkha is "icca". Not getting what one wants is "anicca": "na" + "icca".
That means if you get what you want, it is not Dukkha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:03 am

That means if you get what you want, it is not Dukkha?
No. It is not.

I am still waiting for your answer. You are good at asking questions. I see that you have been at this forum for many years. Why not explain what you understand to be dukkha after all these years? Please don't quote someone else.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:08 am

Why not explain what you understand to be dukkha after all these years?
I don't understand. That is why I am asking questions.
Sorry.
The term "desire less" is used for the person who realised Nibbana by understanding Dukkha.

:juggling:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by justindesilva » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:05 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:08 am
Why not explain what you understand to be dukkha after all these years?
I don't understand. That is why I am asking questions.
Sorry.
The term "desire less" is used for the person who realised Nibbana by understanding Dukkha.

:juggling:
The budda damma is critically based on anicca.
Since we accepted budda darma as our path , we understood anicca as impermanence as conditioned things ( sankara). According to the damma we follow paticca samuppada too is based on anicca. The core of paticca samuppada for existence being salayatana , rests on anicca ( impermanence ) of nama rupa too.
Here again nama is subjected to universal consciouness (a universal energy) and rupa ( apo tejo vayo patavi) is subjected to terrestrial energy. But both these energies are conditioned by movements of the cosmos that we learn as true today. Again these truths hasbto be investigated through mulapariyaya sutta as the terrestrial conditions are subject to aryan knowledge or knowledge of putujjanas, marga pala labins, arhants or budda knowledge.
What I wish to elaborate here is that anicca cannot rest on a translation but is an insight in to the universal truth or paticca samuppada. The second fact is that anicca dukka anatma has to be understood from a whole to part basis. For this as I always believe our own body seen from within (equivalent to universe) has to be understood as an insight ( vipsssana).
If we are to come to terms with the explanation of anicca against what we have understood then a forum of learned bikkus should discuss and agree that what was ecplained all this time was wrong, as so much can change on the new interpretation.
So far we have followed the teachings of ven. Nyanathiloka thero , ven . Balangoda Ananda maithriya
thero, ven. Narada thero, ven . Rahula thero ( author of what the budda taught) and many such learned bikkus.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:11 am

Here again nama is subjected to universal consciouness (a universal energy) and rupa ( apo tejo vayo patavi) is subjected to terrestrial energy.
Do you have a Sutta support for this. Specially for universal consciousness?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:44 am

Hi Lal,

Thank you for your interesting input. I really don't have time to read all of what you've written in detail, but I have a small comment about this:
Lal wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:26 pm
A lengthy discussion on atta/anatta started on April 2, 2017, which goes on up to p. #9.
On April 16, 2017, I referred to a post at puredhamma.net which provides a lengthy response to criticisms by bhikkhu Dhammanando and bhikkhu Pesala. That has been moved to here: "https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... -scholars/". ...
There we find this statement:
Degradation of Theravada Buddha Dhamma occurred gradually over the past 1500 years, but two drastic changes took place during that time:
(i) Buddhaghosa’s introduction of Hindu meditation techniques 1500 years ago,
(ii) misinterpretation of anicca and anatta by the European scholars when they translated both Tipitaka and Visuddhimagga to English in the late 1800’s.
Leaving aside arguments about the usefulness, or not, of the Theravada Commentaries, your second point seems to me to put undue emphasis on English scholars and monastics. It's hard to imagine these having much impact on Asian teachers and practitioners, many of whom were/are not fluent in English.

Have you looked into how Thai and Burmese teachers address the translation of the terms you are interested in? Of course, English translations of their work such as http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Our_Real_Home1.php will tend to use the English translations for your disputed terms, but the context should make clear what is being communicated.

:heart:
Mike

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