The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:48 pm

@rightviewftw:

I think it is a good idea to setup the basis for the discussion. Otherwise, we may be just going back and forth without making much progress.

Can you describe what you mean by anidassana vinnana?

Thanks.

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:38 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:48 pm
@rightviewftw:

I think it is a good idea to setup the basis for the discussion. Otherwise, we may be just going back and forth without making much progress.

Can you describe what you mean by anidassana vinnana?

Thanks.
Friend, these passages should give you a clue to where i will be going with this discussion;
"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
A reference to pleasure where there is suppose to be nothing felt.
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

"Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with form, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of space, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.
...
"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."
Second referrence to pleasure where there is nothing felt. The end of the Sutta describes the cecessation of perception & feeling as ending of stress basically.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support .[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (3)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.
Iti 43
...

The born, become, produced,
made, fabricated, impermanent,
fabricated of aging & death,
a nest of illnesses, perishing,
come-into-being through nourishment
and the guide [that is craving] —
is unfit for delight.
The escape from that
is

calm, permanent,
a sphere beyond conjecture,
unborn, unproduced,
the sorrowless, stainless state,
the cessation of stressful qualities,
stilling-of-fabrications bliss.
Also later i will explain that Path leading to cessation of Aggregates is the same Path that leads to Deathless and that with the Attainment of Deathless a being eventually arrives at total Unbinding, by mainly using the following excerpts :
“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have..."
Further i will also explain that the arising of the Dhamma Eye entails realization of cessation of aggregates (including cessation of perception and feeling) by using these two:
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
tivuttaka: The Buddha’s Sayings

The Section of the Threes

Eyes
This was said by the Lord …

“Bhikkhus, there are these three eyes. What three? The fleshly eye, the divine eye, and the wisdom eye. These, bhikkhus, are the three eyes.”

The fleshly eye, the divine eye,
And the unsurpassed wisdom eye—
These three eyes were described
By the Buddha, supreme among men.

The arising of the fleshly eye
Is the path to the divine eye,
But the unsurpassed wisdom eye
Is that from which knowledge arises.
By obtaining such an eye
One is released from all suffering.
I will define release from suffering as cessation of all formations by means of the 8FNP;
Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."
i will then explain that the knowledge attained by cessation of suffering is the knowledge of Destruction of Taints;
Upanisaa Sutta: Upanisaa

[At Saavatthii the Blessed One said:]
"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers[2] comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.
and because one has this knowledge one will eventually arrive at Parinibbana.
I will also explain that the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling is the superlative attainment;
"He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:

'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
I will at this point say that the superlative attainment is the attainment of cessation of suffering as previously defined and the Vinnana Anidassana both refer to the pleasure where nothing is felt of which the superlative man is percepient after cessation of perception;

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, Ananda, he could..."

"But how, lord, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"There is the case, Ananda, where the monk would be percipient in this way: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' It's in this way that a monk could have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient."
"Where do earth, water, fire and air no footing find?
Where are long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
Where are “name-and-form” brought to an end?'

“And the answer is:

"Vinnana Anidassana", limitless, all-illuminating,

Then water, earth, fire, & wind find no footing,
Then long & short, small & large, pleasant & unpleasant -
Then “name-&-form” are all brought to an end.

With the cessation of viññāṇa, all this is brought to an end.'”
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:04 pm

@rightviewftw:

Maybe we should start at a bit simpler level. We don't want get tangled up in fancy terms and not make any progress in understanding.

In your own words, what is the relationship between citta and vinnana? What do you understand to be vinnana/vinnakkhandha?
Do we experience citta or vinnana or vinnanakkhandha?

Thanks.

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robertk
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by robertk » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:27 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:04 pm
@rightviewftw:

Maybe we should start at a bit simpler level. We don't want get tangled up in fancy terms and not make any progress in understanding.

In your own words, what is the relationship between citta and vinnana? What do you understand to be vinnana/vinnakkhandha?
Do we experience citta or vinnana or vinnanakkhandha?

Thanks.
citta and vinnana are identical, the same reality.
Merely different synonyms.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:21 am

citta and vinnana are identical, the same reality.
The way I understand, Citta is the radiant consciousness and Vinnana is the cetasika (ie spoiled by Sankahra)
I like to know what Lal's interpretation of these three.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:11 am

I do not have much time to think about how to introduce you to this complex subject. But the bottom line is that what we experience is not a citta.

A citta lasts less than a billionth of a second. During that short time it evolves in 9 stages: citta, manō, mānasan, hadayan, pandaran, manō manāyatanam, mana indriyam (or manindriyam), viññāna, viññānakkhandha. (even after going through the 9 stages it is still called a citta for convenience; "a thought" in English).

What we really experience is really vinnannakkhandha, and even then only after many of them run through our minds. The Buddha said that there is nothing faster than a citta in this world.

The first stage citta has only the 7 universal cetasika, but during its evolution within a billionth of a second, many cetasika are incorporated based on one’s gati.

This is explained in #4 of the post that I mentioned earlier: "https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/".

More basic discussions are at: "https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/dh ... a-thought/" and
"https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/dh ... less-pali/".

If you have any questions on any of those posts, I would be happy to answer.

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:22 am

Hi friend,
Lal wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:04 pm
@rightviewftw:

Maybe we should start at a bit simpler level. We don't want get tangled up in fancy terms and not make any progress in understanding.

In your own words, what is the relationship between citta and vinnana? What do you understand to be vinnana/vinnakkhandha?
Do we experience citta or vinnana or vinnanakkhandha?

Thanks.
at the risk of getting tangled up in fancy terms i will introduce two more terms saying that in the same way that vinnana[khanda] can be said to be citta, the vinnana anidassanam would be explained as lokuttaracitta as i understand it.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:52 am

A citta lasts less than a billionth of a second. During that short time it evolves in 9 stages: citta, manō, mānasan, hadayan, pandaran, manō manāyatanam, mana indriyam (or manindriyam), viññāna, viññānakkhandha. (even after going through the 9 stages it is still called a citta for convenience; "a thought" in English).

What we really experience is really vinnannakkhandha, and even then only after many of them run through our minds. The Buddha said that there is nothing faster than a citta in this world.
What is the Sutta reference?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:16 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:22 am
...saying that in the same way that vinnana[khanda] can be said to be citta, the vinnana anidassanam would be explained as lokuttaracitta as i understand it.
I want to emphasise that when i say in the same way here, it is not to be taken to mean that vinnana anidassanam is the same as vinnana khanda, which would be akin to taking the end of the world to be equated with the world. I wont go into details explaining the difference because it has already been outlined in the previous posts.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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DooDoot
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:43 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:22 am
at the risk of getting tangled up in fancy terms i will introduce two more terms saying that in the same way that vinnana[khanda] can be said to be citta, the vinnana anidassanam would be explained as lokuttaracitta as i understand it.
Vinnana anidassanam was something taught to Brahmins and vinnana khanda certainly does not appear to be citta. Citta is associated with defilements. Refer to Cittavagga, which does not appear to be referring to vinnana.

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robertk
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by robertk » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:46 am

61:<Ya.m ca kho eta.m bhikkhave vuccati citta.m iti pi mano iti pi
vi~n~na.m iti pi...

"But that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing
and ceases as another by day and night."
Samyutta 12:61 (Bhikkhu Bodhi transl).


Vism X1V, 82

" 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all
taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what
has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness
(vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why
'consciousness' is said (M i 292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness),
citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning."

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:56 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:52 am
A citta lasts less than a billionth of a second. During that short time it evolves in 9 stages: citta, manō, mānasan, hadayan, pandaran, manō manāyatanam, mana indriyam (or manindriyam), viññāna, viññānakkhandha. (even after going through the 9 stages it is still called a citta for convenience; "a thought" in English).

What we really experience is really vinnannakkhandha, and even then only after many of them run through our minds. The Buddha said that there is nothing faster than a citta in this world.
What is the Sutta reference?
The terms Lal lists are not stages in a citta's evolution but rather the synonyms for "citta", as given in the Niddesa and Paṭisambhidāmagga of the Sutta Piṭaka and the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and Vibhaṅga of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka. The stages of a citta are referred to in the Abhidhamma commentaries as the sub-moments of arising, persistence and dissolution (uppāda, ṭhiti, bhaṅga).

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:09 am

robertk wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:46 am
"But that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing
and ceases as another by day and night." Samyutta 12:61 (Bhikkhu Bodhi transl).
The above appears to be about the similarly of 'impermanence' of these mental phenomena rather than the similarly of function.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:51 pm

The terms Lal lists are not stages in a citta's evolution but rather the synonyms for "citta"
Thanks for the clarification.
I have heard some monks explaining them as separate functions.
Now I think even Citta is Vinnana. (contrary to the opinion I had in my previous post)
However, Citta (Vinnana) has different grades.
For instance, the citta of a person in Jhana is not the same as a run off the mill person.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:08 am

Dhammanando said: "The terms Lal lists are not stages in a citta's evolution but rather the synonyms for "citta", as given in the Niddesa and Paṭisambhidāmagga of the Sutta Piṭaka and the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and Vibhaṅga of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka. ."

That is not correct. A pure citta that starts arising in one's mind gets contaminated in 9 stages within a billionth of a second, and that contamination depends on the arammana and that person's gati.

I have given a reference in #4 of the post, "https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/", which is Patisambhidamaggapakarana (Part I, p. 360). That is from the Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka. I am not sure how to match that page number with Sutta Central version.

There is a second reference in Vibhanga pakarana in #6 of the post, "https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/dh ... a-thought/". This is a Sutta Central reference.

Those 9 stages are stated in suttas as well. However, I am on travel for a few days and don't have time to look for those suttas. I can try to find a sutta reference in a few days.

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