hsandeepani wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 11:35 am
Some of Waharaka Theros sermons are controversial.
As lal says, this is not a very useful statement without providing some references, or, at least, some indication of which aspects are considered controversial. Many teachers are considered controversial by others...
Sabbesu dhammesu anattānupassī viharati
One meditates observing the futility of things
Though presumably that's a translation of a translation, so may be coming across not quite how it was intended. Anattā is commonly interpreted in terms of "lack of control" (as in https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59), which perhaps has something to do with "futility (of trying to control)"...
What is important to remember in the discussion is the Atta Sanna.
Atta Sanna is applicable to both living and not living objects.
For example the thought a house, glass, cup, man , mother etc all Atta Sanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Perhaps the best way to get an idea of the anatta sanna is to watch the video "Earthlings" at the following site: http://www.nationearth.com/
I must warn that there are very disturbing scenes.
Those animals are really helpless, and are truly experiencing anatta nature. But it is too late for them, because they cannot do anything about it. It is not easy for us to grasp the anatta sanna, because most of us do not get to a such "helpless state" in this life.
Those animals are really helpless, and are truly experiencing anatta nature.
Hi Lal
Thanks for the video. This one of the most horrible and shocking video I ever have seen.
Having said that I think your understanding of Anatta is incorrect.
Anatta does not mean helplessness.
Animals have the Atta Sanna nature but they will never realise the Anatta.
Only human can understand the nature of Anatta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
You said: “Anatta does not mean helplessness.”
Of course. Each person is entitled to his/her opinion.
You said: “Animals have the Atta Sanna nature but they will never realise the Anatta.”
It is stated better as: “Animals show us the anatta nature; animals do not have the anatta sanna”
You said: “Only human can understand the nature of Anatta.”
It is stated better as: “Only humans can cultivate the anatta sanna. Looking at the helpless nature of animals is helpful to understand the anicca and dukkha nature, and thus cultivate anatta sanna”
Since you seem to want to have an open and sincere discussion, could you answer the following questions:
1. If anatta is “no-self”, then when one dies one does not need to worry about what happens after that. Let us take person X. If there is “no-X” to start with, why does X need to worry about what happens after death?
2. As I understand, Nibbana means stopping the rebirth process. Do you agree? If not, what is meant by Nibbana?
3. If there no more X when X dies, why is there a need to strive for Nibbana (if you agree that Nibbana means stopping the rebirth process)?
If anatta is “no-self”, then when one dies one does not need to worry about what happens after that. Let us take person X. If there is “no-X” to start with, why does X need to worry about what happens after death?
There is dependent origination.
As I understand, Nibbana means stopping the rebirth process. Do you agree? If not, what is meant by Nibbana?
Unfortunately, I can't think beyond Anagami.
If there no more X when X dies, why is there a need to strive for Nibbana (if you agree that Nibbana means stopping the rebirth process)?
I do not think I will re-born again. If I can't find "I" now how can I find it after death? I strive for Nibbana because I want to eliminate Dukkha now not after my death. I feel I am endlessly suffering now.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
You said: “I do not think I will re-born again. If I can't find "I" now how can I find it after death? I strive for Nibbana because I want to eliminate Dukkha now not after my death. I feel I am endlessly suffering now.”
1. OK. So, you say Nibbana is not stopping the rebirth process.
2. You referred to Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada or PS). Does not that explain the rebirth process, and the suffering associated with that rebirth process?
Don’t you think 1 and 2 are contradictory? If you accept Paticca Samuppada, that is how the rebirth process is initiated. This was waht I was getting to: If there is "no-self", there is no need for Nibbana. But all Buddha's teachings (based on PS) are focused on stopping the samsaric suffering. As you saw in that movie, "Earthlings", the suffering in the animal realm is much harsher than what we go through as humans in the human realm.
We should not go around in circles. As long as there is a contradiction, that needs to be resolved first. I hope you can address the above points before moving onto other aspects/issues.
Here is my explanation (in brief):
As long as one has not removed avijja, the PS cycle cannot be broken. When one “bhava” runs out of energy, another “bhava” is grasped at the dying moment (at the end of a given bhava), and that is how the rebirth process continues.
When one fully understands the true nature of this world (anicca, dukkha, anatta), avijja is removed and the "bhava formation" stops. Furthermore, one will not grasp a “new bhava”, because one has also removed tanha, and thus "tanha paccaya upadana" step will not go forward.
That is how the suffering stops at the Arahant stage, and that is Nibbana.
Until then, each PS cycle ends with “jati paccaya jara, marana, soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, upasaya sambhavanti”?, ie., SUFFFERING. That is the samsaric suffering the Buddha taught.
By the way, in a given life numerous PS cycles run (every time we act with avijja), and we accumulate so many new bhava; but only the strong ones become "uppatti bhava" leading to rebirth. Still, there are numerous bhava that can be grasped at the end of a given bhava, at the dying moment. The strongest one among them is grasped.
you say Nibbana is not stopping the rebirth process.
There is a continuation of and changing. But it is not rebirth.
Does not that explain the rebirth process
It does not say rebirth. It says birth.
all Buddha's teachings (based on PS) are focused on stopping the samsaric suffering.
Buddha's teaching is ending suffering here and now.
"uppatti bhava" leading to rebirth.
I see your point.
But I will not recognise me as SarathW.
I may think that I am a butterfly or a bird.
So it is not me. It is that butterfly or the bird.
I should practice Buddhism not to end my Samsara but to end the Samsara for that butterfly or the bird.
It is no different to that I take all care of you to make sure that you are not suffering because of me.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
As I understand, what you are saying is: "I may be born as an animal in the future. But whatever suffering that animal goes through is not mine, but is of that animal".
And you are saying: "I am experiencing suffering right now, in this life. Nibbana means ending of that suffering which I experience in this life".
So, what do you expect to happen when you attain Nibbana that way? What changes are you expecting in yourself? What would happen at Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, stages that come before attaining Nibbana at the Arahant stage? Have you attained to any of those stages?
what do you expect to happen when you attain Nibbana that way?
I quite do not understand Nibbna. To me, it is like eating the mango and destroy the seed. No more mango trees.
What changes are you expecting in yourself?
Ending Dukkha in this life itself.
What would happen at Sotapanna,
The first stage of ending Dukkha.
Have you attained to any of those stages?
I thought I was Sotapanna until I listened to this monk. Please listen to this monk and let me know what do you think. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31879&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Hello SarathW:
Thank you for being honest and staying on the issues. Also, thanks for the desana by Ven. Sudassana.
In fact, the section of the desana that you selected has answers to the basic questions that we have been discussing: Bhava, Jati, Paticca Samuppada, Sotapanna and other stages of Nibbana.
Another key concept that has been hidden is “gati” (or “gathi”), that Ven. Sudassana mentioned. So, let me start there.
Based on our actions, speech, and thoughts (which are kaya, vaci, and mano sankhara), we accumulate various gati, which can be loosely translated as habits/character, but more like character.
Let us take person X. If X is capable of doing actions suitable for an animal, he has “animal gati”. These could lie in a broad range, for example, vicious animals kill, so if X can kill (especially a human), then he has gati suitable for an animal. On the other hand, if X has cultivated rupavacara jhana, and enjoys getting into rupavacara jhana, then he has cultivated gati suitable for a rupavacara brahma.
X may have many different gati, but one of the strong ones will determine the bhava that is grasped. So, if X has strong vicious gati suitable for an animal, X is likely to grasp a bhava in the animal realm. On the other hand, if X has dominant gati for a rupavacara brahma, he would grasp that.
As we saw in the movie “Earthlings”, animals in general undergo much harsh suffering. So, such suffering is possible for X, if X has some kind of “animal gati”. If X is a serial killer, he has gati suitable for much harsher realms in the niraya. If X has “excessively greedy gati”, X could grasp a “preta bhava” and be born a preta.
So, if one is habitually doing strong dasa akusala, one has ‘apayagami gati”. Here apaya includes the lowest four realms of niraya, preta, asura, and animal. By following the Noble Eightfold Path, X can get rid of such “apayagami gati”. Then one becomes Sotapanna.
The next higher 7 realms are the higher realms of the kama loka: human realm and the 6 deva realms. One gets a human or deva bhava by cultivating “human gati” or “deva gati”. But there is still suffering in these realms, even though less than in the apayas. As long as X is attached to sense pleasures, X will have those gati. When one comprehends the long-term dangers of sense pleasures, one would get rid of such gati, and attain the Anagami stage (via Sakadagami stage; I am making this brief).
Once one becomes an Anagami, birth is still possible in the 16 rupavacara brahma realms and the 4 arupavacara brahma realms. Even though suffering in those realms are much less, there is still suffering there. When one realizes that eventually, one loses “upadana” for such bhava also, and one attains the Arahant stage. That is Nibbana.
That is a basic outline. Of course, there is so many details. Those gati and bhava are fueled by Paticca Samuppada cycles that run each time X commits an akusala kamma (which cultivate apayagami gati) or punna kamma (which cultivate gati suitable for human and higher relams).
So, do you see why these concepts are much deeper, and much more complex than limited to a single life in the human bhava? Even in the human bhava, there will be many rebirths as a human. Human bhava shakti or energy can last thousands of years. So, one will be born human many times before that energy runs out. This is why there are accounts of rebirth. Of course, one cannot recall any other bhava.
These set of gati are also called “asava”. When all gati are removed, one becomes an Arahant. Then one will not grasp any bhava. This is why Nibbana is also called “asvakkhaya” or getting rid of asava.
