The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Trekmentor
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:54 pm

News time!

As mentioned in an earlier comment, now I've got a page on "san". It includes a list of "san" words. Also added is the "About" page.

"List of “San” Words and Other Pāli Roots"
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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Trekmentor
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:58 am

The video referenced below shows another instance where this unskilled novice monk can be heard talking about the so called "san" concept, which is not something the Lord Buddha had taught.

Image

A sutta from AN 1.10 [ https://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0401m.mul9.xml ]:
‘‘Ye te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū abhāsitaṃ alapitaṃ tathāgatena bhāsitaṃ lapitaṃ tathāgatenāti dīpenti te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū bahujanaahitāya paṭipannā bahujanaasukhāya, bahuno janassa anatthāya ahitāya dukkhāya devamanussānaṃ. Bahuñca te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū apuññaṃ pasavanti, te cimaṃ saddhammaṃ antaradhāpentī’’ti.
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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James Tan
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:58 am

Lal wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:07 pm

First one needs to remove ‘san‘ that lead to immoral activities that can lead to births in the apāyās; after one becomes a Sōtapanna, one should strive to eliminate “san” involving sense pleasures; after becoming an Anāgāmi, the goal is to remove “san” associated with rupa and arupa jhāna. I only stated “sense pleasures” in the Table.


Hello Lal ,

Could you explain how one can remove "san" associated with arupa jhana. ?


Thanks .
:reading:

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:28 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:58 am
Lal wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:07 pm

First one needs to remove ‘san‘ that lead to immoral activities that can lead to births in the apāyās; after one becomes a Sōtapanna, one should strive to eliminate “san” involving sense pleasures; after becoming an Anāgāmi, the goal is to remove “san” associated with rupa and arupa jhāna. I only stated “sense pleasures” in the Table.


Hello Lal ,

Could you explain how one can remove "san" associated with arupa jhana. ?
Sankhara (san +khara or doing thing to accumulate "san") are our thoughts, speech, and actions with greed, anger, and ignorance, i.e., they can be mano, vaci, or kaya sankhara.

When those sankhāra become strong, they are called "abhisankhāra" or "strong sankhāra" that can lead to rebirths.

Abhisankhāra are three kinds:

1. There are actions that lead to bad consequences during life and also to bad rebirths in the four lowest realms (apāyas). These are “apunnābhi sankhāra” or immoral deeds: apunna abhi san khāra.

2. Actions that lead to good consequences in life and also to good rebirths are called “punnābhi sankhāra” or meritorious deeds; these lead to birth in good realms (human, deva, and the rūpa lōkas via the first 4 jhānās), thus avoiding rebirth in bad realms where one could get trapped for many aeons. Thus it is important to accumulate punnābhi sankhāra: punna abhi san khāra.

3. When one cultivates higher meditative states (arūpa jhāna leading to rebirth in the highest four arūpa lōka realms), via breath meditation for example, one is able to be reborn in the four higher Brahma worlds. These also prolong sansāra, and are called “ānenjābhi sankhāra“: ānenja abhi san khāra.
- Here those yogis can temporarily suppress all desires for kāma lōka or rupa lōka existences. However, since they had not comprehended the anicca nature, they still have "hidden avijjā" or "avijjā anusaya".
- P.S. One needs to have cultivated rūpa jhāna first, via punnābhi sankhāra.

It is interesting to note that “ānenja” means “no more rebirths” and thus "permanent": the ancient yogis (including Alara Kalama and Uddakarama Putta) thought these realms have permanent existence and equated the births there to the “ultimate release”. Of course, the Buddha discovered that those also have finite lifetimes, even though extremely long, lasting aeons (billions of years).
- The only way to remove "avijjā anusaya" is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, and to permanently remove greed, anger, and avijjā permanently.
- In other words, those yogis had not removed "san", they just suppressed "san". That can be done by "breath meditation" if one can stay away from sense attractions. But the moment they are exposed to sense attractions those "anusaya" can come to the surface and "break" those arupa jhana.

So, to get to any type of jhana, the "san" needed to be removed or suppressed are dasa akusala and kāma rāga.
Last edited by Lal on Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

James Tan
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:03 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:28 pm

- The only way to remove "avijjā anusaya" is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, and to permanently remove greed, anger, and avijjā permanently.
- In other words, those yogis had not removed "san", they just suppressed "san". That can be done by "breath meditation" if one can stay away from sense attractions. But the moment they are exposed to sense attractions those "anusaya" can come to the surface and "break" those arupa jhana.
Hello Lal ,

It seems you are missing something here , not everyone needs to attain arupa jhana and also not all arhat attained the arupa jhana .
Some people attained liberation with either one of the rupa jhana following the eight right path .
:reading:

Trekmentor
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:07 pm

News time!

Now I have a page about the levels of "san".

Levels of “San”
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:44 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:03 pm
Lal wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:28 pm

- The only way to remove "avijjā anusaya" is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, and to permanently remove greed, anger, and avijjā permanently.
- In other words, those yogis had not removed "san", they just suppressed "san". That can be done by "breath meditation" if one can stay away from sense attractions. But the moment they are exposed to sense attractions those "anusaya" can come to the surface and "break" those arupa jhana.
Hello Lal ,

It seems you are missing something here , not everyone needs to attain arupa jhana and also not all arhat attained the arupa jhana .
Some people attained liberation with either one of the rupa jhana following the eight right path .
I do not understand what you mean.

Attaining jhana is different from attaining Nibbana.
- One can attain Nibbana (Arahanthood) without going through a single jhanic state (i.e., without having ANY jhanic experience).
- In that post, I just provided an answer to your following question: "Could you explain how one can remove "san" associated with arupa jhana. ?"

James Tan
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by James Tan » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:11 am

Lal wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:44 pm



- One can attain Nibbana (Arahanthood) without going through a single jhanic state (i.e., without having ANY jhanic experience).
-
Could you provide what text stated No jhana needed for attaining nibbana ?

Or am I missing something ?

Right Concentration on the last of the list of Noble Eight Fold Path means the path to cultivate does need one or more Jhana .

Moral discipline group (silakkhandha),
made up of right speech, right action, and right livelihood;

Concentration group (samadhikkhandha),
made up of right effort, right mindfulness,
right concentration
;

Wisdom group (paññakkhandha),
made up of right view and right intention.



Note that the five faculties (sadda, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) , Samadhi has to do with jhana .


Even the 7 factor of enlightenment
has to do with jhana .

Mindfulness (sati)
Investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya)
Energy (viriya)
Rapture or happiness (piti)
Calm (passaddhi)
Concentration (samadhi)
Equanimity (upekkha)





"These seven factors of enlightenment, verily, Kassapa, are well expounded by me, cultivated and much developed by me, and when cultivated and much developed they conduce to full realization, perfect wisdom, to Nibbana."

"Verily, Blessed One, they are factors of enlightenment! Verily, O Welcome One, they are factors of enlightenment!" uttered Maha Kassapa. Thus spoke the Buddha, and the Venerable Maha Kassapa, rejoicing, welcomed the utterances of the Worthy One. And the Venerable Maha Kassapa rose from that illness. There and then that ailment of the Venerable Maha Kassapa vanished.

— SN 46.14
:reading:

Trekmentor
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:07 am

Here's a reference to another video in which this unskilled novice monk can be heard talking about the so called "san" concept, which is not found in what the Lord Buddha had taught:

Image

A sutta from AN 1.11 [ https://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0401m.mul10.xml ]:
‘‘Ye te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū abhāsitaṃ alapitaṃ tathāgatena abhāsitaṃ alapitaṃ tathāgatenāti dīpenti te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū bahujanahitāya paṭipannā bahujanasukhāya, bahuno janassa atthāya hitāya sukhāya devamanussānaṃ. Bahuñca te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū puññaṃ pasavanti, te cimaṃ saddhammaṃ ṭhapentī’’ti.
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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Trekmentor
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:26 am

News time!

Now I have a page that explores the link between "san" and the "hidden" practice of worshipping the dogs. Accordingly, the About page has been updated too.

The Critical Link Between “San” and Worshipping the Dogs
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:35 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:11 am
Lal wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:44 pm



- One can attain Nibbana (Arahanthood) without going through a single jhanic state (i.e., without having ANY jhanic experience).
-
Could you provide what text stated No jhana needed for attaining nibbana ?

Or am I missing something ?
Yes. I can provide evidence that jhana are not needed (i.e., not essential) for attaining Nibbana (Arahanthood or any stage of magga phala). Jhana are mental states of the rupavacara brahma realms lying above the realms in the kama loka, that include the human and deva realms.
- Basically, one needs either suppress or remove kama raga to get to jhanic state. Even before the Buddha, many yogis cultivated jhana by suppressing kama raga.

It takes time to cultivate jhāna, especially for those who had not cultivated them in recent past lives. People who have high wisdom (paññā) may attain magga phala (even Arahanthood) within a very short time, and they are called paññāvimutti Arahants or “wisdom-liberated”. Bahiya Daruchiriya, who attained Arahantship upon listening to a single verse by the Buddha is a good example; see, “Bahiya Sutta (Udana 1.10)“.

There are many who got to magga phala without ever getting to a jhāna. Alavaka Yaksa, Upatissa, kolita, Angulimala, minister Santati, and many others attained various stages of Nibbāna by just listening to a single desanā.

The Susima Sutta, also called “Susima­parib­bāja­ka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya 12.70)” discusses a group of Arahants who were paññāvimutti Arahants.
In that sutta, the Buddha explained to Susima that there are Arahants without any supernormal (iddhi) powers, because they were paññāvimutti Arahants. Once attaining Arahanthood, they have no desire to cultivate iddhi powers, since they have seen the anicca nature of those powers too.

You wrote: "Right Concentration on the last of the list of Noble Eight Fold Path means the path to cultivate does need one or more Jhana ."

No. Samma Samadhi is not jhana. Samadhi is different from jhana.
- For example, those yogis before the Buddha cultivated jhana, but did not have Samma Samadhi (san mā samādhi or the samādhi needed to overcome "san").

You wrote: "Note that the five faculties (sadda, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) , Samadhi has to do with jhana", and "Even the 7 factor of enlightenment has to do with jhana" .

No. Why do you say that?
- None of those are needed to cultivate anariya or mundane jhana. Of course, they are needed to attain Ariya jhana, where kama raga is eliminated even at the first jhana.
- One can develop anariya jhana by suppressing kama raga as those yogis did even before the Buddha.

Finally, the sutta that you quoted, SN 46.14, is compatible with what I wrote above.

P.S. Here is a link to the story about Santati, a Minister of the King Kosala, attaining Arahanthood after listening to a single verse by the Buddha: https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=142

Trekmentor
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:33 am

"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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James Tan
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by James Tan » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:06 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:35 am
Bahiya Daruchiriya, who attained Arahantship upon listening to a single verse by the Buddha is a good example; see, “Bahiya Sutta (Udana 1.10)“.
(1)
According to a note by bhikkhu Thanissaro ,
Bahiya he may actually have had strong powers of concentration with some attendant psychic powers of his own.
Because the distance between Suppāraka and Sāvatthī amounts to 120 leagues, or approximately 1,200 miles. How could a person travel and arrive in very short time to meet the Buddha whom was almsround at that time ?


(2)
Susima sutta

Ps. Susima didn't have Arupa jhana or psychic powers but still have the Rupa jhana .


“Well, knowing and seeing thus, do you have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form?”



(3)
Santati, a Minister of the King Kosala

Ps. If Santati didn't have jhana and psychic powers can he rose to such heights ?



“ Santati, a Minister of the King Kosala Santati rose to a height of seven toddy-palms into the sky and there, while meditating on the element of fire (tejo kasina), he passed away realizing parinibbana. His body went up in flames, his blood and flesh burnt up and the bone relics (dhatu) fell through the sky and dropped on the clean piece of cloth which was spread by the bhikkhus as instructed by the Buddha. "




(4)
And in the 7 factor of enlightenment ,

Rapture or happiness (piti)
Calm (passaddhi)
Concentration (samadhi)
Equanimity (upekkha)


These are all factor of jhana .



Unless you disagree with the Buddha's teachings ?!
:reading:

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:52 pm

James Tan’ Comments:
“According to a note by bhikkhu Thanissaro ,
Bahiya he may actually have had strong powers of concentration with some attendant psychic powers of his own. “

That is just speculation.

“Ps. Susima didn't have Arupa jhana or psychic powers but still have the Rupa jhana .”

Again, no evidence to support this.

“Ps. If Santati didn't have jhana and psychic powers can he rose to such heights ?”

Some people acquire iddhi powers upon attaining the Arahanthood.
- There is no way that Minister Santati had developed iddhi powers before that moment. He had just won a battle for the King and the King gave him the Kingdom for a week. He had been drinking and partying all that week. It was at the end of that week that he got distraught by the death of a woman. All this is in that link I provided.
- Another prominent example in the Tipitaka is the story about the Culapanthaka Thero. He almost disrobed because he could not even memorize a single gāthā after trying hard for months. But with Buddha’s help, he was able to attain the Arahanthood in a day, and even developed abhinna powers together with the Arahanthood: "https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/thag10.4".


“And in the 7 factor of enlightenment ,

Rapture or happiness (piti)
Calm (passaddhi)
Concentration (samadhi)
Equanimity (upekkha)

These are all factor of jhana”

You are confusing the 7 factors of Enlightenment with jhana factors. Those may have the same names, but they mean different things.
- As I explained before, one could cultivate anariya jhana by doing breath mediation, and many yogis attained those jhanas even before the Buddha. In fact the Buddha (more accurately the Bodhisatva before the Enlightenment) learned how to cultivate those jhanas from two such yogis, Alara Kalama and Uddakaramaputta.
- In order to cultivate 7 factors of Enlightenment, one needs to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.


The relationship between jhanic states and various stages of magga phala is clearly explained in Abhidhamma:

From the post, "https://puredhamma.net/tables-and-summa ... 121-citta/":

One can attain Nibbanic states via the vicinity of each of the five rupaloka jhānic states (here the Abhidhamma method of 5 jhānas is used, instead of four mentioned in the suttas, where the first two jhāna in Abhidhamma categorization are taken to be one jhāna; in the Abhidhamma analysis vitakka and vicara are removed in two steps, whereas in the sutta analysis it is assumed that they are removed in one step).

- Therefore, each of the five jhānic states can lead to the four magga cittas and four phala cittas.
- Thus here there are 40 ways to attain lokottara cittas. Therefore, the total number of citta in this case would be 121 (= 54 + 15 + 12 +40) instead of 89.

Therefore, various magga phala (including the Arahant stage) can be reached via going through any of the jhānic states or without going through any jhānic state.

- Of course, the 8 lokottara citta (i.e., the four stages of Nibbāna) arrived are the same, regardless of whether arrived via jhāna or not.

The above explanation with much more details can also be found in the book, "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", by Bhikkhu Bodhi, pp. 27-75.

James Tan
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:50 am

Lal wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:52 pm
.......
Lal , let's take a look at the sutta .

Anyway , everyone is entitled to their beliefs according to one's understanding .


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html




"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the ....

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
:reading:

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