The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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rajitha7
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:40 am

Dhammanando wrote: The Pure Dhamma website offers a variety of revisionist readings of the Pali Suttas based upon the site-owner’s (or his guru’s) claimed re-discovery of supposed hidden meanings of key Pali terms.
Well, the biggest "revision" is not in words but in the method.

For example last week you would have gone to a meditation room, sat down cross-legged and observed breathing thinking it's going to "enlighten" you. You indicated that -> [here]

So just like you, for generations many have done the wrong thing taking a lead from the Visudhimagga. Now that I have shown you the correct way it would be silly to go back and observe your breathing isn't it? Unless Ven. Waharaka and the Puredhamma site came along you'd still be huffing and puffing away hoping to irradicate fetters.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:04 am

rajitha7 wrote:Well, I will answer it for you. The answer is a.

a) All worldly things are without substance.

The answer (b) does not make sense because "self" is a reference to a person. So "Dhamma" forerunner does not make sense because even non-biological things are Dhamma.
SarathW wrote:What I am more interesting know is whether Nibbana is included in Sabbe Dhamma according to Ven. Abhaya?
Following, from the above.

- All worldly things are without substance (Anatta).
- Nibbana, on the other hand, has substance (Atta).
“Sabbe sankhara anicca“ - all sankhara cannot be maintained to one’s satisfaction
“Sabbe sankhara dukkha“ - all sankhara eventually lead to dukkha
“Sabbe dhamma anatta“ - all dhamma are without substance at the end
According to Abhidhamma, Sabbe Dhamma consists of Nibbana. Ven. Abhaya highly recommends Abhidhamma. So why you do not want to accept it?
Because if you accept this, all your arguments come to a hogwash.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:16 am

Hi Sarath,

SarathW said
How do you translate "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" as per your (or Ven. Abhaya) interpretation? Does "Sabbe Dhamma" include Nibbana?
This is discussed at:
https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... -sankhara/
As explained there, Nibbana is not included in Dhamma.

SarathW said,
I also like to thank Lal for the development of the website without which we will not be able to discuss the views held by Waharaka lineage which is gathering a large following in Sri Lanka.
Thank you for your reassuring words. I normally don’t go to discussion boards due to this problem. It is amazing to see how intolerable some are of views that are different from theirs, but I did not expect that kind of response from bhikkhus, whom I venerate in the name of the Sariputta, moggalana lineage. I recently came back to this forum because Dr. Snyder asked me to. If he asks me to stay out, or if I feel that my time here would be a waste of time, I will.

Pali is “phonetic language” (sounds give the meanings in most cases, especially for key the words). It comes from Magadhi (Maga Adhi or Noble Path) that the Buddha spoke. It has no grammar like most other languages, even though people have tried over the past hundreds of years. Furthermore, Pali does not have its own alphabet either. When the Tipitaka was written down 2000 years ago, it was written in Pali with Sinhala script. It is good to know a bit of historical background:
https://puredhamma.net/historical-background/

The fact that Pali does not pay much attention to grammar can be clearly seen in the verses, “Buddhan Saranan gachchami“, “Dhamman Saranan gachchami”, etc.
- There is no subject in those sentences. The first of course means, “I take the refuge in the Buddha”, but “I” is missing in “Buddhan Saranan gachchami“. It is just understood.
- If you look at suttas, there is no clear grammatical structure. It is the sound that gives the meaning and most verses have “double meanings”. Most people just see the conventional meaning in some verses, which really have very deep meanings.

Buddha Dhamma is to be learned with understanding of the key concepts: dasa akusala (of which micca ditthi is the most important, but not many people pay attention to), anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc. Without that key understanding one cannot go beyond “moral living”. There are two Eightfold Paths as described in the Maha Chattarisaka sutta:
https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpreta ... eat-forty/
Most people today are on the mundane Path, because they have not been even exposed to Tilakkhana. To start on the Lokottara Path, one needs to first comprehend anicca, dukkha,anatta.

Anyway, I do not intend to engage in “debates” here or anywhere else. That will lower the value of the Buddha Dhamma. The Buddha said trying to “sell” Dhamma, i.e., try to persuade another who is not willing to listen or to reason out, is like chasing a woman who has said “no”.
I will not respond to any derogatory remarks. It is not that I am offended (I really am not, just saddened), it is just that Buddha Dhamma requires respect. One does not listen to a desana with the shoes or a hat on. Trying to put down others in a discussion, and even worse try to “shut down” the other side, does not serve any purpose. Bringing down a Dhamma discussion to a “political like” debate by attacking the other side is demeaning to Buddha Dhamma.

But I am willing to clarify any issues that anyone has with my postings here or at my site. I know that many people have legitimate questions, since this interpretation is new and different for many. Please keep in mind that the Buddha said “my Dhamma has never been known to the world”: “pubbe ananustutesu Dhammesu..”. If it is so easy to grasp, we don’t need a Buddha in the world.
It is easy for a normal human to comprehend anicca as “impermanent”, for example, rather than “it is not possible to maintain things to one’s satisfaction in this world”; The deeper meaning takes time to comprehend, because one needs to spend time and contemplate long. That is why true Dhamma is kept hidden for long times until an Ariya like Ven. Waharaka Thero bring the true meanings out once in a long time. But if grasped, that will change one forever, because then one will be a Sotapanna.

Please post any questions any of you have in this link if possible. Even when I don’t have much time to check other discussions, I will visit this link to check. This is one way to pay gratitude to my late Noble teacher, Waharaka Thero.

With metta, Lal

rajitha7
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:17 am

SarathW wrote:According to Abhidhamma, Sabbe Dhamma consists of Nibbana..
Dhamma's are "things".

- Sabbe Dhamma infers all "things" in the mundane world.
- Abhidhamma infers all "things" in both mundane and supermundane worlds.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

SarathW
Posts: 10319
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:11 pm

rajitha7 wrote:
SarathW wrote:According to Abhidhamma, Sabbe Dhamma consists of Nibbana..
Dhamma's are "things".

- Sabbe Dhamma infers all "things" in the mundane world.
- Abhidhamma infers all "things" in both mundane and supermundane worlds.
So Nibbana without substance or fruitless, according to Ven. Abhaya?
If Nibbana is not a Dhamma we will not be able to experience it while we alive.
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 10319
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:26 pm

Please post any questions any of you have in this link if possible. Even when I don’t have much time to check other discussions, I will visit this link to check. This is one way to pay gratitude to my late Noble teacher, Waharaka Thero.
Thank you. Please be assured Dhamma Wheel is a friendly and tolerant discussion group. Without salt, curry will not be very tasty. :D However too much salt will spoil the soup which I agree.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 10319
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:28 pm

As explained there, Nibbana is not included in Dhamma.
Perhaps you are right but contradict Abhidhamma.
If Nibbana is not Dhamma how do we experience it when we alive?
I wish to Know what Ven. Abaya's view on this.
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 10319
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:37 pm

Hi Lal,
The main concern here is the meaning of Anatta. To me, the meaning of Anatta is summarised in Anatta Lakhana sutta. The following phrase clearly demonstrate that Anatta means taking things as I, me or myself.(ie. self-view)
=============
"Now, what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard it as: 'This is mine, this I am, this is myself'?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .mend.html


“Yaṃ panāniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipari­ṇāma­dhammaṃ, kallaṃ nu taṃ samanupassituṃ: ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”
ti? “No hetaṃ, bhante”.

https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn22.59
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rajitha7
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:27 pm

SarathW wrote:
rajitha7 wrote:
SarathW wrote:According to Abhidhamma, Sabbe Dhamma consists of Nibbana..
Dhamma's are "things".

- Sabbe Dhamma infers all "things" in the mundane world.
- Abhidhamma infers all "things" in both mundane and supermundane worlds.
So Nibbana without substance or fruitless, according to Ven. Abhaya?
If Nibbana is not a Dhamma we will not be able to experience it while we alive.
How can Nibbana be fruitless? Did you think about that?

Learn to pick the nuances. There are nuances everywhere. When we generally discuss Dhammas it's the mundane ones we discuss. However, in the context of Abhidhamma the scope of the Dhammas expand to include Nibbana.

The Dhammas Ven. Abhaya infers do not have Nibbana included.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

rajitha7
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:58 pm

“Yaṃ panāniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipari­ṇāma­dhammaṃ, kallaṃ nu taṃ samanupassituṃ: ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”
ti? “No hetaṃ, bhante”.


The Incorrect translation

"Now, what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard it as: 'This is mine, this I am, this is myself'?

The correct translation

"Now, what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard it as: 'This is mine, this I am, this is beneficial'?
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:11 pm

The Dhammas Ven. Abhaya infers do not have Nibbana included.
What is his interpretation of Dhamma?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rajitha7
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:11 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Avoiding dasa akusala is indeed vital. However, atta means self, and anatta means not-self. Attha means welfare or benefit, while anattha means without welfare or benefit. The ten unwholesome deeds are entirely without welfare or benefit.
anattha/anattha = means no welfare or benefit
atta/attha = means the opposite - has benefit.

I am sorry, but Lal was correct all along. You seem to think there are two meanings here. Although there is only one.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:55 am

Then in the very next sutta, Attha Sutta (AN 181; in the Sadhuvagga) anattä is defined in terms of dasa akusala:
Can you provide the Sutta link in Sutta Central?
I want to compare Pali and English translation and perhaps Sinhala translation.

==========
I found the following. But I cant find the English translation.

134. “Bhikkhus, I will teach the profitable and the unprofitable, listen and attend to it carefully.

“Bhikkhus, what is unprofitable?

Wrong view, wrong thoughts, wrong speech, wrong actions, wrong livelihood, wrong endeavour, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, wrong knowledge and wrong release. Bhikkhus, these ten are unprofitable.

Bhikkhus, these ten are profitable. What ten?

Right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge and right release. Bhikkhus, these ten are profitable.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rajitha7
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:40 am

SarathW wrote:
The Dhammas Ven. Abhaya infers do not have Nibbana included.
What is his interpretation of Dhamma?
I said earlier, the mundane Dhammas.

I think the following example will show where the problem lies.

This is the correct version.
’’මහණෙනි, අර්ථය කවරේද? මනා දැනීම, මනා සිතීම, මනා වචන, මනා කර්‍මාන්තය, මනා ජීවිකාව, මනා වෑයම, මනා සිහිකිරීම, මනා සිත එකඟ කිරීම, මනා නුවණ, මනා මිදීම, වෙත්. මහණෙනි, මෙය අර්ථයයි කියනු ලැබේ.’’

https://suttacentral.net/si/an10.137
Although here it is incorrect.
“මහණෙනි, ඒ කුමකැයි සිතන්නහුද, රූපය නිත්‍ය හෝ වෙයිද? අනිත්‍ය හෝ වෙයිද?” “ස්වාමීනි, අනිත්‍යය,” “යමක් වනාහි අනිත්‍යද, එය දුක් හෝ සැප හෝ වේද?” “ස්වාමීනි දුකය,” “යමක් අනිත්‍යයද, දුකද පෙරලෙන සුලුද, එය මාගේය. එය මම වෙමි. එය මාගේ ආත්මයයි කියා දැකීමට සුදුසු වේද?” “ස්වාමීනි, එය නොවේමය.”

https://suttacentral.net/si/sn22.59
It should be thus,
“මහණෙනි, ඒ කුමකැයි සිතන්නහුද, රූපය නිත්‍ය හෝ වෙයිද? අනිත්‍ය හෝ වෙයිද?” “ස්වාමීනි, අනිත්‍යය,” “යමක් වනාහි අනිත්‍යද, එය දුක් හෝ සැප හෝ වේද?” “ස්වාමීනි දුකය,” “යමක් අනිත්‍යයද, දුකද පෙරලෙන සුලුද, එය මාගේය. එය මම වෙමි. එය අර්ථවත් කියා දැකීමට සුදුසු වේද?” “ස්වාමීනි, එය නොවේමය.”

https://suttacentral.net/si/sn22.59
Last edited by rajitha7 on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

SarathW
Posts: 10319
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:49 am

Ok thinks :D , I see your point, I hope Ven Dhammanando or Ven Pesala might give their thoughts on this.
By the way, if Nibbana is not Dhamma how can you experience it in this life?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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