The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

A forum for Dhamma resources in languages other than English
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3687
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:01 pm

Lal wrote:It just happens that I just published this post explaining why Nibbana is Atta:
This is a schoolboy error caused by incorrect transliteration of the Pāḷi.
Lal wrote:“..katamo ca bhikkhave, anattö? panatipatö, adinnädänaṃ, kämesu­miccha­cärö, musävädö, pisuṇä väcä, parusä vacä, samphappaläpö, abhijjhä, vyäpädö, micchädiṭṭhi – ayam vuccati, bhikkhave, anattö..”
The Attha Sutta deals with what is of benefit, and what is not, i.e. what is harmful. This has nothing at all to with not-self (anatta).
4. Atthasuttaṃ

137. “Atthañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anatthañca. Taṃ suṇātha … … Katamo ca, bhikkhave, anattho? Micchādiṭṭhi … … Micchāvimutti — ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, anattho. Katamo ca, bhikkhave, attho? Sammādiṭṭhi … … Sammāvimutti — ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, attho”ti. Catutthaṃ.

Monks, I will teach you about what is of benefit and what is not of benefit. Please listen attentively ...
What, monks, is of no benefit? Wrong View ... Wrong Liberation — this, monks, I call of no benefit. And what, monks, is of benefit? Right View .. Right Liberation. — This, monks, I call of benefit.
AIM ForumsPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

Lal
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:20 pm

Hi Sarath,
You said,
"Now, those that are impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard them as: 'They are mine, this I am, this is my self'?"

"Indeed, not that, O Lord."
The Pali verse is, "Yaṃ pan aniccam dukham viparinama dhamman, kallam nu tam samanupassitum: ‘etan mama, éso hamasmi, éso mé attati?"

The key is to see whether translating anicca and anatta as "impermanence" and "no-self" is correct. In the above "atta" in attati is the opposite of anatta.

I have discussed these terms in detail:
https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... -anatta-2/

At least read the first post on the list and see whether those make more sense. Of course, each person needs to makes his/her own decision. I cannot say this is the correct explanation. Anatta Lakkhana Sutta is discussed in third and the seventh link given in the above set of links.

A given Pali word can have many different meanings. One needs to be able to figure out which meaning to be used depending on the context. A simple example is discussed in:
https://puredhamma.net/dhammapada/atta-hi-attano-natho/
Here atta is used both as "self" in the conventional sense and also in the deeper sense as "without refuge" or "helpless in sansara".

With metta, Lal

Lal
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:40 pm

Ven. Bhikkhu Pesala:
First of all, my intention is not to debate but only to clarify my posts. I am NOT saying that "this is the truth and nothing else is truth". Each person is capable of making his/her own decisions. But I believe that key concepts of the Buddha, including anicca and anatta, have been misinterpreted for many hundreds of years, and all I am doing is to say "Here is another explanation. See whether these explanations make more sense".

You said,

Code: Select all

 This is a schoolboy error caused by incorrect transliteration of the Pāḷi. 
It seems that way since it is a very simple explanation. But simplicity should be considered a virtue. Buddha Dhamma is very simple at the base: If one can get rid of greed, hate, and ignorance, one can attain Nibbana or refuge, and thus one becomes "atta". Until that happens, one is helpless, without refuge, one is anatta.

When one lives by dhamma and stays away from adhamma, one becomes atta. So, the my post that you referred to repeats the above statement starting with dhamma/adhamma.

But Buddha Dhamma can go probe a given concept much deeper, and my site has posts ranging from simple explanations to deeper explanations. For example, on dhamma:
https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/what- ... -analysis/

With metta, Lal

rajitha7
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:11 pm

SarathW wrote:Hi Lal
Ven Abhaya definitely got this wrong. Anatta- Lakkhana sutta gives a very clear definition of the meaning of Anatta.
I do not think we need to twist it in any other way.
==============
"Now, those that are impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard them as: 'They are mine, this I am, this is my self'?"

"Indeed, not that, O Lord."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .mend.html
You should watch this.

Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by aflatun » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:16 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Lal wrote:It just happens that I just published this post explaining why Nibbana is Atta:
This is a schoolboy error caused by incorrect transliteration of the Pāḷi.
Lal wrote:“..katamo ca bhikkhave, anattö? panatipatö, adinnädänaṃ, kämesu­miccha­cärö, musävädö, pisuṇä väcä, parusä vacä, samphappaläpö, abhijjhä, vyäpädö, micchädiṭṭhi – ayam vuccati, bhikkhave, anattö..”
The Attha Sutta deals with what is of benefit, and what is not, i.e. what is harmful. This has nothing at all to with not-self (anatta).
4. Atthasuttaṃ

137. “Atthañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anatthañca. Taṃ suṇātha … … Katamo ca, bhikkhave, anattho? Micchādiṭṭhi … … Micchāvimutti — ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, anattho. Katamo ca, bhikkhave, attho? Sammādiṭṭhi … … Sammāvimutti — ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, attho”ti. Catutthaṃ.

Monks, I will teach you about what is of benefit and what is not of benefit. Please listen attentively ...
What, monks, is of no benefit? Wrong View ... Wrong Liberation — this, monks, I call of no benefit. And what, monks, is of benefit? Right View .. Right Liberation. — This, monks, I call of benefit.
Bikkhu Pesala, Lal, et al.

For those of us with no command of Pali, perhaps you could help understand the disagreement

Bhante, are you saying there is a master, source Pali text that says, for example, anattho vs. anattö ? If so, how/why has the transliteration error happened?

Thanks in advance

:anjali:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

rajitha7
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:25 am

Bhikkhu Pesala,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: The Attha Sutta deals with what is of benefit, and what is not, i.e. what is harmful. This has nothing at all to with not-self (anatta).
If we plug-in your idea into this Sutta with "No self" and and "self", the Sutta will read thus.

Monks, I will teach you about what is of self and what is no self. Please listen attentively ...
What, monks, is of no self? Wrong View ... Wrong Liberation — this, monks, I call of no self. And what, monks, is of self? Right View .. Right Liberation. — This, monks, I call of self.


However, if we plug in Lals definition of "no benefit" and "benefit", the Sutta reads this way.

Monks, I will teach you about what is of benefit and what is of no benefit. Please listen attentively ...
What, monks, is of no benefit? Wrong View ... Wrong Liberation — this, monks, I call of no benefit. And what, monks, is of benefit? Right View .. Right Liberation. — This, monks, I call of benefit.


Now tell me which version makes sense to you please?
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3687
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:33 am

aflatun wrote:Bhante, are you saying there is a master, source Pali text that says, for example, anattho vs. anattö ? If so, how/why has the transliteration error happened?
Get yourself a copy of the CST4 Tipitaka and search for any sutta using the correct spelling. Then switch to whichever script is easiest for you to read.
Attha Sutta Roman.png
Attha Sutta Roman.png (15.32 KiB) Viewed 837 times
Attha Sutta Snihala.png
Attha Sutta Snihala.png (17.13 KiB) Viewed 837 times
The transliteration error happened because Lal does not know Pāḷi well enough (either that or the site uses a crazy font that is not Unicode).
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
AIM ForumsPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3687
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:55 am

rajitha7 wrote:If we plug-in your idea into this Sutta with "No self" and "self", the Sutta will read thus.

Monks, I will teach you about what is of self and what is no self. Please listen attentively ...
What, monks, is of no self? Wrong View ... Wrong Liberation — this, monks, I call of no self. And what, monks, is of self? Right View .. Right Liberation. — This, monks, I call of self.

Now tell me which version makes sense to you please?
No. That's what you will get if you use Lal's version. Mine is correct.
Lal wrote:5. Then in the very next sutta, Attha Sutta (AN 181; in the Sadhuvagga) anattä is defined in terms of dasa akusala:

“..katamo ca bhikkhave, anattö? panatipatö, adinnädänaṃ, kämesu­miccha­cärö, musävädö, pisuṇä väcä, parusä vacä, samphappaläpö, abhijjhä, vyäpädö, micchädiṭṭhi – ayam vuccati, bhikkhave, anattö..”
Thus one becomes anatta (helpless) by engaging in dasa akusala.
In the next and last paragraph of the sutta, atta defined as the opposite of that: panatipatä veramani, adinnädänä veramani, kämesu­miccha­cärä veramani, musävädä veramani, pisuṇä väcä veramani, parusä vacä veramani, samphappaläpä veramani, abhijjhä veramani, vyäpäda veramani, sammaädiṭṭhi – ayam vuccati, bhikkhave, attö. ‘ti.
Thus one becomes atta (leading to refuge in Nibbana) by engaging in dasa kusala.
6. Those two short suttas make it crystal clear the following important facts:
Anatta has nothing to do with a “self”.
Anatta is all about being helpless in the rebirth process due to one’s engagements with dasa akusala.
Therefore, getting to Nibbana is all about avoiding dasa akusala, i.e., cleansing one’s mind.
Do take more care. The pair of you are helpless and the site is full of errors of both spelling and interpretation.

Avoiding dasa akusala is indeed vital. However, atta means self, and anatta means not-self. Attha means welfare or benefit, while anattha means without welfare or benefit. The ten unwholesome deeds are entirely without welfare or benefit.
AIM ForumsPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

rajitha7
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:13 am

Well, allow me to offer my sincere apologies. I bow to superior knowledge and wisdom.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

Lal
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:01 am

Ven. Bhikkhu Pesala:

There is a larger problem at the root of this discussion. I hope you will take time and think about the following points.

I see people going back and forth with different interpretations from different suttas. I have explained this in a number of posts at my website (see the link below). But here are the key reasons for confusion that I see in many discussion boards.

1. Some of key Pali words have several different meanings. For example, "atta" can be used as "self" in the conventional sense but means “in control” or ”with refuge” as the deeper meaning. One needs to be able to use the correct meaning depending on the context.
2. Suttas cannot be should not be translated word-to-word. Most suttas are highly condensed for easy oral transmission. We need to remember that they were orally transmitted for around 500 years before written down.
3. This is why commentaries were written (to explain key suttas in detail), but most of those old commentaries have been lost as I have explained at the site (see the posts in the in link below). For example, Dhammacakkappavattana sutta was delivered overnight, but was condensed into a few pages.

A simple example is the following gatha, which I copied from my website:
“Attä hi attano nathö
kö hi näthö parö siyä
attanä hi sudanténa
näthan labhati dullabhan”
(Dhammapada verse 160)
This is an important verse where the word “atta” (pronounced “aththa”) is used with two very different meanings in two places within the same verse.
 In the conventional sense, “atta” means “a person”.
 The deeper meaning of “atta” is “in full control”, the opposite of which is anatta (“helpless”) as in the Tilakkhana.
 When one attains the true “atta” state (Nibbana), one has become “nätha“, which is still used in Sinhala meaning “found refuge or salvation”. As long as one remains in the 31 realms (this world), one is “anätha” (which is the Sinhala word for anatta) or “helpless”.
 One becomes atta (attanä) by cleansing (one’s mind): sudantena (sudda means “clean”).
 Labhati means get and dullabhan means rare, and as we saw above “nätha” is attaining Nibbana. So, näthan labhati dullabhan means “it is not easy to get to salvation (Nibbana)”.
Therefore, we can translate the verse as follows:
“One indeed is one’s own refuge
how can another be a refuge to one?
one reaches salvation by purifying one’s mind
getting to refuge (Nibbana) is rare”

I hope you can see that it is not possible to use just one meaning at different places in the above verse. "Atta" is further discussed at:
https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpreta ... -reliable/

Here is the key post on anicca, dukkha, anatta:
https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... ha-anatta/

I have a section on the website on Sutta Interpretations and these important points are discussed with examples of key suttas. Here are links to different posts in that section:
https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpretations/

All my posts have numbered bullets, so that one could point out any errors anywhere. I would be happy to discuss and correct myself if one can point out the reasons why they are incorrect.
With metta, Lal

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3779
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:18 pm

Hi Rajitha,

I am posting my reply here as it's not really relevant to Binocular's "Courage in the Case of Versatility" thread.
Dhammanando wrote:
rajitha7 wrote:Would you be able to show the 3 the most significant errors you find there, please?
My allotted internet time for today is almost up. I may return to the subject tomorrow, but I don’t promise.
So now I’ll return to the subject, though not in the way that you request. Instead I propose to take a close look at just one randomly selected page from the Pure Dhamma website. (Actually I started out by randomly selecting *three* pages, intending to comment on all of them, but there were so many mistakes on just the first one that I've decided to call it a day).

The page in question purports to be about the meaning of the saṃ part of the word saṃsāra and is found in a section of the website ominously entitled “Key Dhamma Concepts that have Been Hidden”. :spy:

The article opens with the exciting revelation of a Pali term whose meaning has allegedly been "hidden for thousands of years" but has now been rediscovered.
:woohoo:
Pure Dhamma wrote:1. A key word, the meaning of which has been hidden for thousands of years, is “san” (pronounced like son).
Sad to say, saṃ is actually one of the most common prefixes in Pali and Sanskrit, as well as in many modern Indian languages. There is no mystery to the word at all. Functionally it’s simply the Indic equivalent of the Latin “com-”. Its range of meanings in both Pali and Sanskrit is well-known and well-documented and at no time has its meaning been “hidden”.

However, by asserting that the meaning of some key Pali term has been hidden or lost or misunderstood by lesser mortals, messianic revisionist Theravadins grant themselves the luxury of assigning whatever new meaning they like to it...
Pure Dhamma wrote:“San’ is basically the term for “good and bad things we acquire” while we exist anywhere in the 31 realms; see, “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma“.
Not according to the texts, which consistently explain saṃ in the noun saṃsāra and in the verb saṃsarati as being a term used in the sense of abbocchinnaṃ, an adverb meaning ‘continuously’ or ‘without interruption’. For example:
  • Khandhānañ’ ca paṭipāṭi, dhātu-āyatanāna ca,
    Abbocchinnaṃ vattamānā, saṃsāro’ ti pavuccatī ti.


    The process of the aggregates, elements and bases,
    Proceeding without interruption is called ‘saṃsāra’.
    (DA. ii. 496)
Pure Dhamma wrote:2. There is also a reason for calling what we “pile up” as “san“. In Pali and Sinhala, the word for numbers is “sankhyä“, and sankhyä = “san” + “khyä“, meaning (add &multiply) + (subtract & divide), i.e., sankhya is what is used for addition, multiplication, subtraction, and division. From this, “san” gives the idea of “piling up” (addition and multiplication); “khyä” gives the idea of “removal” (subtraction and division).

Therefore “san” is used to indicate things we do in the sansaric journey; see below for examples.
It’s correct that the saṃ- in saṃsāra and the saṅ- in saṅkhyā are one and the same verbal prefix. But from their sharing of the same prefix it doesn’t follow that the meaning of saṃsāra can be derived from the meaning of saṅkhyā.

We wouldn’t say, for example, that the meaning of ‘transport’ can be inferred from the meaning of ‘transgender’, or that the meaning of ‘confetti’ can shed light on the meaning of ‘community’ just because the two items in each pair happen to share the same Latin prefixes.
Pure Dhamma wrote:“Khyä” or “Khaya” is used to indicate removal. Nibbana is attained via removal of defilements (raga, dosa, moha), and thus Nibbana is “ragakkhaya“, “dosakkhaya“, and “mohakkhaya“.
Etymologically there is no connection between the -khyā in saṅkhyā and the khaya in rāgakkhaya. One is derived from the verb saṅkhāyati (to count or calculate) and the other from the verb khayati (to wither). The disparateness of the two can be seen even more starkly in Sanskrit, where their respective cognates are saṅkhāyati and kṣinoti.

Like ‘dick’ and ‘dyke’ or ‘blob’ and ‘bulb’, khaya and khyā are unrelated words that just happen to share two consonants.
Pure Dhamma wrote:Just by knowing this, it is possible to understand the roots of many common words, such as sankhara, sansara, sanna, samma, etc. Let us analyze some of these words.
The writer seems to be confusing roots (dhātu) and prefixes (upasagga). Saṅkhāra, saṃsāra, and saññā all share the prefix saṃ. But their roots — and it is these, not the prefixes that are the primary source of a Pali word’s meaning — are √khar (= Skt. kṛ), √sar (= sṛ), and √ñā (= jñā) respectively.

As for sammā, this is an indeclinable particle (nipāta) and as such has no verbal root and no relationship whatever with the three nouns.
Pure Dhamma wrote:4. Another important term “samma” which comes from “san” + “mä“, which means “to become free of san“. For example:

“Mä hoti jati, jati“, means “may I be free of repeated birth”.
The word is a prohibitive particle (“Don’t!” Let it not!”). It’s also an indeclinable, which means it’s neither reducible nor modifiable nor combinable with other words. Indeclinables are to Pali philology what inert gases are to chemistry. As such it has no more to do with the sound in sammā than it does with the sound in Māra or marble or marzipan or Margate or Marlene Dietrich. It just happens to sound the same.
Pure Dhamma wrote:5. Knowing the correct meaning of such terms, leads to clear understanding of many terms:
Indeed. And like so many things in this world, the correct meaning is not arrived at merely by wishing it were so.
Pure Dhamma wrote:Sansära (or samsara) = san + sära (meaning fruitful) = perception that “san” are good, fruitful. Thus one continues in the long rebirth process with the wrong perception that it is fruitful.
The sāra in saṃsāra doesn’t mean fruitful. In the Suttas the Buddha connects the noun saṃsāra with the verb saṃsarati. This verb’s primary meaning is to repeatedly come (or go) somewhere or to wander or move about continuously. From this we get the secondary meaning, to transmigrate.
Pure Dhamma wrote:Sammä = san + mä (meaning eliminate) = eliminate or route out “san”. Thus Samma Ditthi is routing out the wrong views that keeps one bound to sansara.
No, this is both etymologically wrong and factually wrong as to what sammādiṭṭhi is. What the writer is describing is diṭṭhujukamma, the action of straightening of one’s views. If one is successful at this then sammādiṭṭhi is the result.
Pure Dhamma wrote:Sandittiko = san + ditthi (meaning vision) = ability to see “san”; one becomes sanditthiko at the Sotapanna stage. Most texts define sandittiko with inconsistent words like, self-evident, immediately apparent, visible here and now, etc.
There are two traditional etymologies for sandiṭṭhiko, one of which gives rise to the translation “to be seen by oneself” and the other to translations like “self-evident”. But regardless of which of these one prefers, the term is one of the special qualities of the Dhamma, not of any person. And so to speak of somebody “becoming” sandiṭṭhiko at the sotāpanna stage is nonsensical.
Pure Dhamma wrote:6. A nice example to illustrate the significance of “san”, is to examine the verse that Ven. Assaji delivered to Upatissa (the lay name of Ven. Sariputta, who was a chief disciple of the Buddha):

“Ye dhamma hetu pabbava, te san hetun Thathagatho aha, Te san ca yo nirodho, evan vadi maha Samano”

Te = three, hetu = cause, nirodha = nir+uda = stop from arising

The translation is now crystal clear:

“All dhamma (in this world) arise due to causes arising from the three “san”s: raga, dosa, moha. The Buddha has shown how to eliminate those “san”s and thus stop dhamma from arising”
This part is the clearest evidence so far that the author is attempting to explain points of Pali without having learned anything of the language at all. The word tesaṃ is simply the demonstrative pronoun te (‘this’, ‘that’) in the genitive plural case. It means “of these”, “of those”. The saṃ part is an inflectional ending (vibhatti). It has absolutely nothing to do with the prefix saṃ in saṃsāra.
Pure Dhamma wrote:7. [...]

Each Pali word is packed with lot of information, and thus commentaries were written to expound the meaning of important Pali words.

A good example is the key Pali word “anicca“. In Sanskrit it is “anitya“, and this is what normally translated to English as “impermanence”. But the actual meaning of anicca is very clear in Sinhala: The Pali word “icca” (pronounced “ichcha”) is the same in Sinhala, with the idea of “this is what I like”. Thus anicca has the meaning “cannot keep it the way I like”.
The nicca in anicca has nothing to do with the adjective iccha (wishing) or the noun icchā (a wish) or the verb icchati (to wish).

The colloquial Sinhala pronunciation of it is actually a mispronunciation when judged by the phonetic descriptions in the ancient Pali grammars. When Sri Lankans pronounce Pali words their commonest mistake is to make aspirated consonants into non-aspirates and non-aspirated consonants into aspirates. This can be seen in the unorthodox romanization system used at the Pure Dhamma site:

gathi instead of gati
hethu-pala instead of hetu-phala.
micca-ditthi instead of micchā-diṭṭhi
satipattana instead of satipaṭṭhāna
Etc., etc.

By contrast, this is the international standard used by indologists for over a century:
  • ක ඛ ග ඝ ඞ
    ka, kha, ga, gha, ṅa

    ච ඡ ජ ඣ ඤ
    ca, cha, ja, jha, ña

    ට ඨ ඩ ඪ ණ
    ṭa, ṭha, ḍa, ḍha, ṇa

    ත ථ ද ධ න
    ta, tha, da, dha, na

    ප ඵ බ භ ම
    pa, pha, ba, bha, ma

    ය ර ල ව ස හ ළ ං
    ya, ra, la, va, sa, ha, ḷa, ṃ

Conclusion

The Pure Dhamma website offers a variety of revisionist readings of the Pali Suttas based upon the site-owner’s (or his guru’s) claimed re-discovery of supposed hidden meanings of key Pali terms.
These proposed hidden meanings, when not presented merely as bald assertions, are defended by resort to Pali philological analysis.
But since the site-owner is demonstrably incompetent in both Indic philology in general and Pali in particular his arguments are undeserving of credence. Rather than leading to the true understanding of the Dhamma via the revelation of higher (but long-concealed) meanings, they lead only to baloney.

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3687
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:48 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Conclusion

The Pure Dhamma website offers a variety of revisionist readings of the Pali Suttas based upon the site-owner’s (or his guru’s) claimed re-discovery of supposed hidden meanings of key Pali terms.

These proposed hidden meanings, when not presented merely as bald assertions, are defended by resort to Pali philological analysis. But since the site-owner is demonstrably incompetent in both Indic philology in general and Pali in particular his arguments are undeserving of credence. Rather than leading to the true understanding of the Dhamma via the revelation of higher (but long-concealed) meanings, they lead only to baloney.
Spot-on (as long as by "baloney" you don't mean "Large smooth-textured smoked sausage of beef and veal and pork.") With that, I will bow out of any further discussion about pure dhamma.net It is just a net of views, a trap for the unwary, and it is too time-consuming to correct every error.

I hope the authors will listen to the two of us and take down this website until they are more qualified to write something that is truly helpful to revive the true Dhamma.
AIM ForumsPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

SarathW
Posts: 8287
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:27 pm

I will bow out of any further discussion about pure dhamma.net It is just a net of views, a trap for the unwary, and it is too time-consuming to correct every error.
Thank you, Bhante Dhammanando and Pesala for your input. I also like to thank Lal for the development of the website without which we will not be able to discuss the views held by Waharaka lineage which is gathering a large following in Sri Lanka. I request all of you to stay with the discussion. This discussion is not a personal attack on any particular person or a group. The sole purpose is to clarify the meaning and understanding of true dhamma. I am listening to all 30 videos by Ven. Abhaya and continue to post my concerns. I hope this discussion will help many people.
:anjali:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 8287
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:50 pm

Hi Lal
I have a question for you.
How do you translate "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" as per your (or Ven. Abhaya) interpretation?
Does "Sabbe Dhamma" include Nibbana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rajitha7
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:50 am

SarathW wrote:How do you translate "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" as per your (or Ven. Abhaya) interpretation?
Do you see "Dhamma" as all worldly things including non-living things?
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by aflatun » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:26 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
aflatun wrote:Bhante, are you saying there is a master, source Pali text that says, for example, anattho vs. anattö ? If so, how/why has the transliteration error happened?
Get yourself a copy of the CST4 Tipitaka and search for any sutta using the correct spelling. Then switch to whichever script is easiest for you to read.
Attha Sutta Roman.png
Attha Sutta Snihala.png
The transliteration error happened because Lal does not know Pāḷi well enough (either that or the site uses a crazy font that is not Unicode).
Thank you Bhante, I wasn't aware of this resource, I look forward to exploring it and I thank you for your explanation

:anjali:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

SarathW
Posts: 8287
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:14 am

rajitha7 wrote:
SarathW wrote:How do you translate "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" as per your (or Ven. Abhaya) interpretation?
Do you see "Dhamma" as all worldly things including non-living things?
I think so. It include space I suppose.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rajitha7
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:40 am

SarathW wrote:
rajitha7 wrote:
SarathW wrote:How do you translate "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" as per your (or Ven. Abhaya) interpretation?
Do you see "Dhamma" as all worldly things including non-living things?
I think so. It include space I suppose.
Given "worldly things" can be clouds or even mountains, given the "self" is a reference to "I" or "me", i.e. someone who lives and breaths, which sentence makes more sense to you?

a) All worldly things are without substance.
b) All worldly things are "not-self".
Last edited by rajitha7 on Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

SarathW
Posts: 8287
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:05 am

What I am more interesting know is whether Nibbana is included in Sabbe Dhamma according to Ven. Abhaya?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rajitha7
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:14 am

Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:09 am

Well, I will answer it for you. The answer is a.

a) All worldly things are without substance.

The answer (b) does not make sense because "self" is a reference to a person. So "Dhamma" forerunner does not make sense because even non-biological things are Dhamma.
SarathW wrote:What I am more interesting know is whether Nibbana is included in Sabbe Dhamma according to Ven. Abhaya?
Following, from the above.

- All worldly things are without substance (Anatta).
- Nibbana, on the other hand, has substance (Atta).
“Sabbe sankhara anicca“ - all sankhara cannot be maintained to one’s satisfaction
“Sabbe sankhara dukkha“ - all sankhara eventually lead to dukkha
“Sabbe dhamma anatta“ - all dhamma are without substance at the end
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest