The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:12 am

For a bit of a change, I thought of discussing a related issue that is at the core of Buddha Dhamma.

“Rebirth in Early Buddhism?”

P.S. The first thing to decide is: Whose Buddha Dhamma it is? Buddha’s or those who are trying to re-write it, including the late commentators like Buddhaghosa. If it is not "early Buddhism" of the Buddha, whose Buddhism is "modern Buddhism"?

I just started reading the book, ““Rebirth in Early Buddhism and Current Research” by Bhikkhu Analayo.

In the Introduction, Bhikkhu Analayo says, “I would also like to mention that for me personally rebirth is not a critical issue..”

I was astounded to see that. I wonder what his goal is as a bhikkhu. Even as a lay Buddhist, the goal is Nibbana.

I hope either Bhikkhu Analayo or others commenting at this thread would state what they hope to achieve by being a Buddhist.

The goal of most other religions is very simple: To be born in heaven. The goal of Hindus is to merge with the Maha Brahma (i.e., to be born as a brahma).

So, it would be good to know what the goal of those Buddhists is, who are making arguments against my posts defending rebirth as "built-in" to Buddha Dhamma (And that the goal of a Buddhist is to attain Nibbana, which means stopping rebirths in this suffering-filled world of 31 realms).

In any case, Bhikkhu Analayo has done some research on Dhammaruwan, who recited complex Pali suttas starting at age 3. Here are some excerpts from Bhikkhu Analayo.

- Dhammaruwan was born on November 18, 1968, in Matale, Sri Lanka. At an age of about two years he would sit in meditation spontaneously and then start chanting, as well as at times saying things in a language not understood by his mother, who tried to hush him up.
- His step-father encouraged the boy to continue and regularly made recordings of the chants.
- According to Dhammaruwan’s memories, he learned the Pāli chants in a former lifetime in India, where he had been born as the son of a Brahmin and trained in memorization of the Vedas. He had gone forth as a Buddhist monk and become a student of the eminent monk Buddhaghosa at Nālandā (My comment: which means Dhammaruwan was born a human over 1500 years ago: Another piece of evidence that a human bhava can last thousands of years during which one may be reborn with a human body many times. In between those rebirths, one would be in the gandhabba state, just with the mental body. Furthermore, both Dhammaruwan in that previous life and Buddhaghosa were Vedic Brahmins before converting to Buddhism. That is how those breath and kasina meditations got into Buddhism).
- After being trained as a bhāṇaka, a reciter, together with other monks who had similarly been trained, he was chosen to accompany Buddhaghosa from India to Sri Lanka. Having come to Sri Lanka, he stayed with Buddhaghosa at the Mahāvihāra in Anurādhapura, of which he remembers various details.
- As bhikkhu Analayo admits, these recordings of Dhammaruwan are strong evidence for rebirth. How could a child of age 3-5 even remember such complex Pali words? The way he recites the suttas -- the way he pronounces Pali words -- is actually better than most bhikkhus today.
- Here is a youtube video of a few of his recitals:


Trekmentor
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Trekmentor » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:13 pm

News is here!

Particularly related to this thread, I am setting up a new website called "imPure Dhamma". It will be hosted here: http://impuredhamma.ext.trekmentor.com/

The new website will fulfil an important need of the present times.

Be ready!
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

imPure Dhamma - A Lunatic's Quest to Ruin Buddha's True Teachings

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:17 pm

Trekmentor wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:13 pm
News is here!

Particularly related to this thread, I am setting up a new website called "imPure Dhamma". It will be hosted here: http://impuredhamma.ext.trekmentor.com/

The new website will fulfil an important need of the present times.

Be ready!
:goodpost: :anjali:
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by StormBorn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:06 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:11 am
kstan1122 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 am
It is unfortunate to see that people with good ethic still do not understand what is dasa akusala (ten immoral actions).
Hi, could you kindly quote from the suttas where mental actions are called "sila"? Thanks
Hi DD,

MN 142 also supports that the sīla refers to verbal and bodily actions only. Mental purity—samādhi—is higher and separate to the sīla. See its categorisation:
"There are fourteen kinds of personal offerings, Ānanda.
[1]One gives a gift to the Tathāgata, accomplished and fully enlightened; this is the first kind of personal offering.
...
...
...
[10]One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of stream-entry; this is the tenth kind of personal offering.
[11]One gives a gift to one outside [the Dispensation] who is free from lust for sensual pleasures (bāhirake kāmesu vītarāge); this is the eleventh kind of personal offering.
[12]One gives a gift to a virtuous ordinary person (puthujjanasīlavante); this is the twelfth kind of personal offering.

[13]One gives a gift to an immoral ordinary person; this is the thirteenth kind of personal offering."
...
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:57 pm

By the way, whether one likes the concept of rebirth or not, it WILL happen. Until one attains the Arahanthood, rebirth cannot be avoided.

No one can change Nature’s laws. The Buddha only DISCOVERED those laws and also DISCOVERED the way to stop rebirth (= future suffering).

Many people cannot even comprehend WHY the Buddha said that rebirth process must be stopped. That is because they do not know that one could be born an animal or worse. Once one understands that, one would want to stop the rebirth process.

This is what is stated in the “Saccavibhanga Sutta (MN 141): Discourse on The Analysis of the Truths”:https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

"What is meant by not getting what one desires, that too is suffering? To beings subject to birth there comes desire: 'O might we not be subject to birth, and birth not come to us.' But this cannot be attained by mere desiring..”

That is not my translation, and it explains WHY one would want to stop the rebirth process.

Those who say that I propagate “wrong Dhamma”, please explain what is meant by that verse, which in Pali is: “Katamañcāvuso, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ? Jātidhammānaṃ, āvuso, sattānaṃ evaṃ icchā uppajjati: ‘aho vata mayaṃ na jātidhammā assāma; na ca vata no jāti āgaccheyyā’ti. Na kho panetaṃ icchāya pattabbaṃ.”

These are simple issues to be resolved, if people engage in honest discussions.

P.S. It is a good idea to read that whole sutta. That suttas delivered by Ven. Sariputta explains in detail what is meant by "suffering" in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. That aging, decaying, diseases, and death are associated with each and every birth. And of course births in the lowest realms have unimaginable suffering.

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DooDoot
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:06 pm

Lal wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:57 pm
By the way, whether one likes the concept of rebirth or not, it WILL happen. Until one attains the Arahanthood, rebirth cannot be avoided.
Mere interpretative speculation.
Lal wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:57 pm
No one can change Nature’s laws. The Buddha only DISCOVERED those laws and also DISCOVERED the way to stop rebirth (= future suffering).
"Nature's Absolute Laws" ("Dhamma-Niyama") the Buddha referred to the Three Characteristics (AN 3.136) and Dependent Origination (SN 12.20). However, to believe Dependent Origination is "rebirth" is merely an interpretation because suttas such as SN 5.10, SN 23.2 and MN 98 support the case that the "birth of beings" (jati satta) is merely a "view" ("ditthi") and verbal convention or designation.
Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

SN 5.10
In human bodies in themselves, nothing distinctive can be found. Distinction among human beings is purely verbal designation.

MN 98
:candle:
Lal wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:57 pm
Many people cannot even comprehend WHY the Buddha said that rebirth process must be stopped.
My reading of the texts says "I-making" and "my-making" must be stopped. Craving must be stopped. Attachment must be stopped.
Lal wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:57 pm
"What is meant by not getting what one desires, that too is suffering? To beings subject to birth there comes desire: 'O might we not be subject to birth, and birth not come to us.' But this cannot be attained by mere desiring..”

That is not my translation, and it explains WHY one would want to stop the rebirth process.
To me, MN 141 above is saying to stop craving.
Those who say that I propagate “wrong Dhamma”, please explain what is meant by that verse, which in Pali is: “Katamañcāvuso, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ? Jātidhammānaṃ, āvuso, sattānaṃ evaṃ icchā uppajjati: ‘aho vata mayaṃ na jātidhammā assāma; na ca vata no jāti āgaccheyyā’ti. Na kho panetaṃ icchāya pattabbaṃ.”
It appears you are definitely not a stream-enter. This verse above is saying to stop craving. The people crying out: "O might we not be subject to birth" are puthujjana who get frustrated with life. It seems definitely you are propagating wrong dhamma because the above verse is about many things, not only "birth".
"And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:alien:
Lal wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:57 pm
These are simple issues to be resolved, if people engage in honest discussions.
Sure, I openly speak to you but I never notice you listening.
Lal wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:57 pm
P.S. It is a good idea to read that whole sutta. That suttas delivered by Ven. Sariputta explains in detail what is meant by "suffering" in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. That aging, decaying, diseases, and death are associated with each and every birth. And of course births in the lowest realms have unimaginable suffering.
The Buddha & Sariputta summarised all suffering as attachment, as follows:
In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In other words, suffering arises with the ideas of "my birth", "my illness", "my death", "my separation", "my not getting", "my sorrow". The problem is the "my". This seems to be more evidence you are not a stream-enterer. You seem to still not understand all suffering is "attachment" ("upadana").

Stream-entry is the realisation of: "all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation". Stream-entry is not your personal idea of: "all that is subject to cessation is subject to arising" (aka "rebirth"). :roll:

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Saoshun » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:47 pm

I moved back for a while, pardon my hypocrisy. Maybe my explanation will be good for those people who give themselves chance to understand and analyze what is spoken here.

First why everybody here has an attitude to defend their camp rather than come out to the truth and look for it. Buddha Dhamma degeneration is not a secret, I think even Buddha spoke about it so we can not get angry but analyze everyone who speaks about finding a truth or way to practice it. Results walk, bull walks.

Here is example
My reading of the texts says "I-making" and "my-making" must be stopped. Craving must be stopped. Attachment must be stopped.
A person here suggests his options to end suffering based on what he learned (or found appealing to him). The problem here is person contradicting himself on the basis of sutta which speaks it cannot be done by mere desiring. We do not have an answer how to stop "I making" or "my making" so we left with mere desiring. Buddha did not speak on no-self because it makes no sense with an actual experience of ourselves we have. No self does not stop craving. It makes the mind more confused and entangled (for me).

What helped me to attain Sotapanna and deeper levels of such "leap" so to speak (besides reading pure dhamma) is an example when three people meet. One person has liked for one person, other people do not like that one but bystander do not have a feeling for that person whom the other two like and dislike. So the person (and objects) do not have any inherent quality that makes people likes or dislike, it's one own ignorance (lack of understanding of Anicca nature which is not impermanence) manufacture such feelings and thoughts to arise - otherwise, all people bypassing would dislike him. So I think this example is proof that's why Lal and the rest of Pure Dhamma is right.

There is no need to be in denial but just to try to break it down. It makes perfect sense if you leave behind any ideas that you developed anything and just start it with a fresh mind.

So by continuation on basis of my example. When people want to attain happiness which is impossible as those things do not have any happiness but we create mental fabrication on the basis of 5 aggregates (like, dislike or neutral feelings) we continue to rebirth because of that craving which does not stop and is power bank in our rebirth process as we do not see true nature of this world (Anicca nature) our mind is constantly clouded. Do not get it wrong also as everything have its own value but have zero value to the attainment of happiness we looking for (Nibbanic bliss). Proper understanding or right view in my experience is crucial as your mind make a leap like to a different dimension and even my body "transformed" so to speak by that experience and things I did not understand I understand easily. Things that made me suffer or regular does not anymore. Even I think I'm getting closer to what is explained "ariya jhana" which bliss-energy appearing and moving thru the body while just contemplating Dhamma explained this way with that translation.

I will not cite suttas or anything to back it up as I do not have as that much of knowledge and really I get really of bad vibe from certain suttas as something is wrong but because of lack of study of Pali and related but my mind intuitive knowledge works on certain more than before.

If I can help based on my experience help anybody to understand anything better then let me know but there is no point to argue about things we do not even experience. Like arguing about others people money if that person is richer then the other.

I do not want to brag but I have no other way to explain benefits if I do not come to my own experience and how wonderful this Dhamma is. Just practice what makes sense for you rather than repeat what is appealing.
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it! :candle:

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Pondera » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:06 pm
Lal wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:57 pm
By the way, whether one likes the concept of rebirth or not, it WILL happen. Until one attains the Arahanthood, rebirth cannot be avoided.
Mere interpretative speculation.
1. Gaddulabaddha Sutta.– Incalculable is the beginning of saṃsāra and the untaught worldling, having wrong notions of self, revolve from birth to birth, like a dog tied by a leash to a pillar or stake around which it unceasingly chases. S.iii.149.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:59 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:56 am
Gaddulabaddha Sutta.–
One of my favorite :thumbsup: suttas, because it seems to explain clearly what "samsara" is:
"Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He assumes feeling to be the self...

"He assumes perception to be the self...

"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

"He keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:
Pondera wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:56 am
1. Gaddulabaddha Sutta.– Incalculable is the beginning of saṃsāra and the untaught worldling, having wrong notions of self, revolve from birth to birth, like a dog tied by a leash to a pillar or stake around which it unceasingly chases. S.iii.149.
The Gaddulabaddha Sutta does not appear to say the interpretation above.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:13 pm

I am astonished by the level of ignorance (avijja) of many people who are commenting. I know that the majority of people who are actually reading what I write are capable of overcoming avijja when the truth is shown with evidence.
- When I say “ignorant” that is NOT one’s intelligence level, so please don’t be offended. Ignorance that I am talking about is ignorance (avijja) of Buddha Dhamma. Actually, it is called moha; see, "Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā" posted on Nov 11, 2018 (p. 44)
- It took me some time, but I now realize that most of those who make these comments have been not exposed to the fundamentals of Buddha Dhamma.

I had not realized how bad it is, actually up to today, until I read the responses to my last post and then the thread on “Ven. Buddhadasa – rejection of the re-birth doctrine?”.
- Shouldn’t people with such questions be checking in the Tipitaka for what the Buddha said about re-birth? After all, this forum is supposed on Buddhism. Whose Buddhism is it – Buddha’s or someone else’s?
- I think some people are desperately trying to grasp at straws, trying to find something in the Tipitaka that would say there is no rebirth process. You will find NONE.
- The key point is that there is no need to try to (mis)interpret five aggregates, etc. It is stated plainly in simple words: “ayam antimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo” OR “This is my last birth; no more rebirths (and no more suffering for me)” in Buddha’s very first sutta, Dhammacappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11).
- That single verse pretty much sums up the Buddhist doctrine about suffering and how to end it.

By the way, Gaddulabaddha Sutta (SN 22.99) is about how long the rebirth process. At the very beginning: “Anamataggoyaṃ, bhikkhave, saṃsāro” means “bhikkhus, there is no discernible beginning to the rebirth process”.

Here I will provide the translation of a full sutta, that states what the consequences of having the 10 types of miccha ditthi (wrong views), including that of not believing in rebirth AND the para loka of gandhabba (that is because the laws of kamma cannot be explained with Paticca Samuppada, or Dependent Origination, without those basic tenets).

Pathama Niraya Sagga Sutta (AN 10.211): Causes for Rebirth in Good and Bad Realms

“Bhikkhus, possessing ten qualities, one is destined to the bad realms (niraya). What ten?

(1) “Here, someone destroys life; he is murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings.
(2) “He takes what is not given; he steals the wealth and property of others in the village or forest.
(3)“He engages in sexual misconduct; he has sexual relations with women who are protected by their mother, father, mother and father, brother, sister, or relatives; who are protected by their Dhamma; who have a husband; whose violation entails a penalty; or even with one already engaged.
(4) “He speaks falsehood. If he is summoned to a council, to an assembly, to his relatives’ presence, to his guild, or to the court, and questioned as a witness thus: ‘So, good man, tell what you know,’ then, not knowing, he says, ‘I know,’ or knowing, he says, ‘I do not know’; not seeing, he says, ‘I see,’ or seeing, he says, ‘I do not see.’ Thus he consciously speaks falsehood for his own ends, or for another’s ends, or for some trifling worldly end.
(5) “He speaks divisively. Having heard something here, he repeats it elsewhere in order to divide those people from these; or having heard something elsewhere, he repeats it to these people in order to divide them from those. Thus he is one who divides those who are united, a creator of divisions, one who enjoys factions, rejoices in factions, delights in factions, a speaker of words that create factions.
(6) “He speaks harshly. He utters such words as are rough, hard, hurtful to others, offensive to others, bordering on anger, unconducive to concentration.
(7) “He indulges in idle chatter. He speaks at an improper time, speaks falsely, speaks what is unbeneficial, speaks contrary to the Dhamma and the discipline; at an improper time he speaks such words as are worthless, unreasonable, rambling, and unbeneficial.
(8)“He is full of longing. He longs for the wealth and property of others thus: ‘Oh, may what belongs to another be mine!’
(9) “He has a mind of ill will and intentions of hate thus: ‘May these beings be slain, slaughtered, cut off, destroyed, or annihilated!’
(10) “He holds wrong view and has an incorrect perspective thus: ‘There is no benefit in giving, being grateful and responding in kind has no merits, respecting and making offerings to those with higher virtues has no merits, there are no consequences of good and bad actions, para lōka or the world of gandhabba does not exist; there is no special person called mother, no father; there are no beings spontaneously reborn; there are in the world no ascetics and brahmins of right conduct and right practice who, having realized this world and the para loka for themselves by direct knowledge, make them known to others.’
“One possessing these ten qualities is destined to be born in bad realms (niraya).”

“Bhikkhus, one possessing ten qualities is destined for births in good realms (sagga or realms at or above the human realm). What ten?

(1)“Here, someone, having abandoned the destruction of life, abstains from the destruction of life. With the rod and weapon laid aside, conscientious and kindly, he dwells compassionate toward all living beings.
(2) “Having abandoned the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He does not steal the wealth and property of others in the village or in the forest.
(3) “Having abandoned sexual misconduct, he abstains from sexual misconduct. He does not have sexual relations with women who are protected by their mother, father, mother and father, brother, sister, or relatives; who are protected by their Dhamma; who have a husband; whose violation entails a penalty; or even with one already engaged.
(4) “Having abandoned false speech, he abstains from false speech. If he is summoned to a council, to an assembly, to his relatives’ presence, to his guild, or to the court, and questioned as a witness thus: ‘So, good man, tell what you know,’ then, not knowing, he says, ‘I do not know,’ or knowing, he says, ‘I know’; not seeing, he says, ‘I do not see,’ or seeing, he says, ‘I see.’ Thus he does not consciously speak falsehood for his own ends, or for another’s ends, or for some trifling worldly end.
(5) “Having abandoned divisive speech, he abstains from divisive speech. Having heard something here, he does not repeat it elsewhere in order to divide those people from these; or having heard something elsewhere, he does not repeat it to these people in order to divide them from those. Thus he is one who reunites those who are divided, a promoter of unity, who enjoys concord, rejoices in concord, delights in concord, a speaker of words that promote concord.
(6) “Having abandoned harsh speech, he abstains from harsh speech. He speaks such words as are gentle, pleasing to the ear, and lovable, as go to the heart, are courteous, desired by many, and agreeable to many.
(7) “Having abandoned idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks at a proper time, speaks truth, speaks what is beneficial, speaks on the Dhamma and the discipline; at a proper time he speaks such words as are worth recording, reasonable, succinct, and beneficial.
(8) “He is without longing. He does not long for the wealth and property of others thus: ‘Oh, may what belongs to another be mine!’
(9) “He is of good will and his intentions are free of hate thus: ‘May these beings live happily, free from enmity, affliction, and anxiety!’
(10) “He holds right view and has a correct perspective thus: ‘There are benefits in giving, being grateful and responding in kind has merits, respecting and making offerings to those with higher virtues has merits, there are consequences of good and bad actions, para lōka or the world of gandhabba exists; there are special persons called mother and father; there are beings spontaneously reborn; in this world there are ascetics and brahmins of right conduct and right practice who, having realized this world and the para loka for themselves by direct knowledge, make them known to others.’
“One possessing these ten qualities is destined to be born in good realms (sagga).”

Therefore, in that Pathama Niraya Sagga Sutta Buddha was talking about what happens to those with the 10 types of miccha ditthi: They are going to be reborn in “bad realms” -- including the animal realm -- unless those wrong views are removed. There are many suttas in that section and elsewhere saying the same thing repeatedly in different ways. So, don’t say it is just one sutta.

I have discussed in detail the importance of comprehending the 10 types of miccha ditthi in the post: Ten Types of Miccha Ditthi - two posts on Nov 16, 2018 (p. 48)
Last edited by Lal on Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:56 pm

Moderator note: Please could members be mindful of the following bit in the ToS:
Personal attacks, including the vilification of individuals based on any attributes - whether related to their personal attributes (e.g. gender, nationality, sexuality, race, age) or their approach to the Dhamma (e.g. their practices, level of experience, or chosen tradition)
Claiming to be astonished by the ignorance of other posters, howsoever defined, comes perilously close to the above and will not be tolerated.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:37 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:13 pm
Pathama Niraya Sagga Sutta (AN 10.210): Causes for Rebirth in Good and Bad Realms

“Bhikkhus, possessing ten qualities, one is destined to the bad realms (niraya). What ten?

(1) “Here, someone destroys life; he is murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings.
(2) “He takes what is not given; he steals the wealth and property of others in the village or forest.
[...]
I think you might have meant AN10.216? AN10.21 is the Lion's Roar.

Where did you get that title there for it? The Mahāsaṅgīti has Saṃsap­panīya­sutta.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by WorldTraveller » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:50 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:13 pm
I am astonished by the level of ignorance (avijja) of many people who are commenting. I know that the majority of people who are actually reading what I write are capable of overcoming avijja when the truth is shown with evidence.
For me, it's the opposite: I am astonished sometimes, but mostly gladly happy by the level of knowledge (vijjā) of many people who are commenting on this thread. :thumbsup: I no longer read your posts, :roll: but follow what others write as those are the ones where one can learn something from this thread when they debunk your adhamma.
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:56 pm
Claiming to be astonished by the ignorance of other posters, howsoever defined, comes perilously close to the above and will not be tolerated.
Not the first time... :) Anyway, at least some official noticed it :D
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Kālāma-sutta

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:16 pm

Coemgenu said:
I think you might have meant AN10.216? AN10.21 is the Lion's Roar.
Sorry. Actually it is AN 10. 211, not AN 10. 210: corrected it in the post.
Paṭha­ma­nira­yasag­ga­sutta (AN 10.211): https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/an10.211
Sutta Central English Translation: https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/an10.211

There are many suttas, from AN 10. 134 through AN 10.220 which summarize many basic tenets of Buddha Dhamma.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:00 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:13 pm
I am astonished by the level of ignorance (avijja) of many people who are commenting.
Again, mere baseless interpretative speculation.
Lal wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:13 pm
I think some people are desperately trying to grasp at straws, trying to find something in the Tipitaka that would say there is no rebirth process. You will find NONE.
Again, mere baseless interpretative speculation. I did not read any poster on this thread denying a "rebirth process". All I read was at least one poster disagreeing with your very common yet materialistic or physical ideas of "rebirth".
Lal wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:13 pm
The key point is that there is no need to try to (mis)interpret five aggregates, etc. It is stated plainly in simple words: “ayam antimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo” OR “This is my last birth; no more rebirths (and no more suffering for me)” in Buddha’s very first sutta, Dhammacappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11).
Sorry but the term "rebirth" is definitely not found in the above quote. The Pali words "jāti" and "punabbhavo" obviously do not mean "rebirth". The claim that "rebirth" is mentioned in SN 56.11 is an example of this doctrine.

Also, the above statement in SN 56.11 is interesting because it is rarely found in the suttas. The stock phrase for the declaration of Arahantship is "birth is ended" rather than "this is my final birth". Since "birth" ("jati") appears to mean "self/social identity", it seems possible the Buddha may have asserted his final social role as "The Buddha" when saying: "This is my final birth". My point here is certainly worthy of another topic for discussion.

Below, a quote about how "jati" means "social identity" or "social role":
Ever since I was born in the noble birth, sister, I don’t recall having deliberately taken the life of a living creature. By this truth, may both you and your infant be safe.

yatohaṃ, bhagini, ariyāya jātiyā jāto, nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropetā, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassā ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn86/en/sujato
Jāti (in Devanagari: जाति, Bengali: জাতি, Telugu:జాతి, Kannada:ಜಾತಿ, Malayalam: ജാതി, Tamil:ஜாதி, literally "birth") is a group of clans, tribes, communities, and sub-communities, and religions in India. Each Jāti typically has an association with a traditional job function or tribe. Religious beliefs (e.g. Sri Vaishnavism or Veera Shaivism) or linguistic groupings may define some Jātis. A person's surname typically reflects a community (Jāti) association: thus Gandhi = perfume seller, Dhobi = washerman, Srivastava = military scribe, etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti
I think a feature of Impure Dharma is it illogically translates dozens of Pali words (such as "jati", "bhava", "attabhava", "abhinibbatti", "opapātikā", "upapannā", "upapatti", "upajjati". "sopapajjati", "paccājāyati", etc) as "rebirth". I think if Dhamma is Pure, these various Pali words will be examined critically. If the Buddha was pure, clear, conherent & logical, I doubt he would have used so many different words for "rebirth".

For example, the word "jāyati". In ambiguous suttas, such as SN 12.10, "jayati" is translated as "physically born", as follows:
‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble. It’s born, grows old, dies, passes away, and is reborn,
‘kicchaṃ vatāyaṃ loko āpanno jāyati ca jīyati ca mīyati ca cavati ca upapajjati ca

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.10/en/sujato
But in umambiguous suttas, the word "jāyati" never means "physically born", as follows:
Desire comes up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present.
Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati;

https://suttacentral.net/an3.112/en/sujato
“Mendicants, these four things are born of love and hate.
“Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, pemāni jāyanti.

What four?
Katamāni cattāri?

Love is born of love,
hate is born of love,
love is born of hate, and
hate is born of hate.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.200/en/sujato
Feeling inspired, joy springs up.
Tassa atthapaṭisaṃvedino dhammapaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati.

Being joyful, rapture springs up.
Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.26/en/sujato
Even though "jayati" appears to not mean "reincarnation", it is often translated as "reincarnation" or "rebirth":
“Take a female who is irritable and bad-tempered.

Even when criticized a little bit she loses her temper, becoming annoyed, hostile, and hard-hearted, and displaying annoyance, hate, and bitterness.

She doesn’t give to ascetics or brahmins such things as food, drink, clothing, vehicles; garlands, fragrance, and makeup; and bed, house, and lighting.

And she’s jealous, envying, resenting, and begrudging the possessions, honor, respect, reverence, homage, and veneration given to others.

If she comes back to this state of existence after passing away, wherever she is reborn she’s ugly, unattractive, and bad-looking;
Sā ce tato cutā itthattaṃ āgacchati, sā yattha yattha paccājāyati dubbaṇṇā ca hoti durūpā supāpikā dassanāya;

and poor, with few assets and possessions; and insignificant.
daliddā ca hoti appassakā appabhogā appesakkhā ca.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.197/en/sujato

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