The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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justindesilva
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by justindesilva » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:34 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:11 am
Here again nama is subjected to universal consciouness (a universal energy) and rupa ( apo tejo vayo patavi) is subjected to terrestrial energy.
Do you have a Sutta support for this. Specially for universal consciousness?
in DN11 kevatta sutta lord budda explains about telepathi and I trust that telepathi can be extended to 31 realms of existence. I trust that 31 realms is mentioned in many suttas.
If not for universal consciousness a telepathy can not be experienced.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:15 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:08 am
Why not explain what you understand to be dukkha after all these years?
I don't understand. That is why I am asking questions.
Sorry.
The term "desire less" is used for the person who realised Nibbana by understanding Dukkha.
Fair enough.

1. Dukkha is defined in the last verse of the paticca samuppada: "jati paccaya jara (old age), marana (death), soka (sadness), parideva (intense sadness), dukkha (physical pain associated with injuries, sicknesses, etc), domanassa (depression), upasaya (intense mental agony, where people commit suicide) sambhavanti (that is the results)".
That is a brief explanation on how "the mass of suffering arises", according to Dependent Origination.

2. Dukkha Sacca (pronounced "sachcha') is the correct Pali word; "satya" is a Sanskrit word. Anyway, the Noble Truth of Suffering is the knowledge on dukkha. When one understands dukkha sacca, one understands how it arises (dukkha samudaya sacca), how it can be stopped from arising (dukkha nirodha sacca), and the way to stop dukkha from arising (dukkha nirodha gamini magga sacca).

First, one starts comprehends dukkha sacca by comprehending Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta). That is the real Samma Ditthi stage on the Noble Path. The Buddha explained in the Mahā Chattārisaka Sutta that there are two Paths: One needs to complete the "mundane eightfold path" and get rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi before one can understand the Tilakkhana and start on the "Noble Eightfold Path"; see, "https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpreta ... eat-forty/".

3. When one completes the Noble Path, one ends up with Samma Samadhi and then there are two more steps of Samma Nana and Samma Vimutti before one becomes an Arahant. At that point, one stops being trapped in the rebirth process and upon the death of the physical body attains "full Nibbana", i.e., no more suffering.
- However, the level of suffering encountered in the rebirth process starts at the Sotapanna stage. For example, one will never be born again in the four lowest realms (apayas) when one attains the Sotapanna stage. One will be released from kama loka at the Anagami stage ("na" "agami" or not coming back to the kama loka).
- Please note the special feature of Pali word combinations (sandhi) in the important words of anicca (na + icca) and anatta (na + atta), as well.

4. So, dukkha and dukkha sacca are two different things.

I have explained all this above, except for the point about there being two paths. Please read my earlier posts. I would be happy to answer questions. Please understand that this requires an effort. One cannot be expected to to "fed" by another. One needs to have the motivation and spend time reading AND contemplating. There is much more detail at puredhamma.net, but it may be hard to navigate for someone who has not been there, since there are over 500 posts. I can refer to specific posts based on questions asked.

I just saw these comments. I will respond to justindesilva and mike later today.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:03 pm

Fair enough.
Thanks, Lal
I know that thing already by the way.
I have no major objection to what you said there.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:23 pm

My comments on some statements by jusitndesilva:
What I wish to elaborate here is that anicca cannot rest on a translation but is an insight in to the universal truth or paticca samuppada.
That is very true. Even though I have stated what is called the uddesa (utterance) version of anicca per key suttas, it takes a real effort to understand for oneself what anicca means; see, "https://puredhamma.net/key-hidden-dhamm ... -anatta-2/".
Here again nama is subjected to universal consciouness (a universal energy) and rupa ( apo tejo vayo patavi) is subjected to terrestrial energy.
That is not correct. Nama (vedana. Sanna, sankhara, vinnana) are one’s own. One generates (abhi) sankhara (moral and immoral thoughts) based on one’s own level of kilesa (defilements), especially ditthi (views) about the external world. Because of many wrong views, one generates a lot of apunnabhi sankhara (immoral thoughts) that lead to immoral speech and immoral actions with a defiled vinnana. I have discussed what is meant by vinnana in this thread and also the one on "anidassana vinnana": viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5618

As I explained there:
Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti,
Sabbaṃ viññāṇapaccayā;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena,
Natthi dukkhassa sambhavo
“.

Translated: “Whatever suffering that arises, all that arises due to viññāṇa; With the not arising of viññāṇa, there is no existence with suffering“.
There are many suttas that clearly state this key point.

P.S. One who has cultivated abhinna powers can see another's nama loka (or nama gotta or memory records to be precise), but cannot affect them.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:16 pm

Regarding the post by Mike:
Leaving aside arguments about the usefulness, or not, of the Theravada Commentaries, your second point seems to me to put undue emphasis on English scholars and monastics. It's hard to imagine these having much impact on Asian teachers and practitioners, many of whom were/are not fluent in English.


1.One really needs to understand the state of Asian countries at the time of arrival of the English. After hundreds of years of invasions by the Portuguese and Dutch, those countries (India, Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, etc) were really bad shape especially regarding to Buddhism, when the English arrived. Of course, in contrast to the Portuguese and Dutch, who actively helped the decline of Buddhism, the English civil servants were actually responsible for the current revival of Buddhsim. When the English arrived, he populations of bhikkhus had severely declined, and very few were interested in deep Dhamma.

I really recommend the book by Charles Allen that I referred to in that post. One can get an idea of what I am talking about with regard to the status of Buddhism. In India, Buddhism had totally disappeared. All Buddhist places of worship had been overtaken by Hindu priests.
Even in Sri Lanka, very few copies of the Pali Tipitaka were there, which had been scattered throughout the country. To the credit of some European civil servants that I mentioned in the post, those were collected and preserved. Of course, all of the original Sinhala commentaries had totally disappeared.

2.Those European scholars, when they first came across the Asoka pillars, came to the conclusion that Pali was a later iteration of Sanskrit. Of course, there were no Pali manuscripts in India except for the Asoka pillars. This is very clear in Allen’s book. If one really wants to understand the historical developments, one must read that book.

So, they immediately connected anicca to anitya, and anatta to anatma.
There is no mention of anitya in the Tipitaka, since anitya is solely a Sankrit word. Anitya means “impermanent” and the Pali word for that is adduwan.
The word anatma is in the Tipitaka, but it is used in a different context (the closest English word is soul). But anatta is not used in that context. Anatta has some relevance to anatma, just like anicca nature is partially associated with impermanence (anitya or adduwan).

3. Another point that is related to #1 above is that most Asians had become enamored by Western ideals and were embracing “everything European”. They took European names even and many Sinhala names are common Portuguese, Dutch, and English names: Fernando, Silva, de Alwis, etc are still common names in Sri Lanka.

So, when those European scholars started translating the Tipitaka, the Asian communities wholeheartedly embraced those “scholarly works”. Of course, the European scholars had only good intentions. They were really interested in understanding those ancient manuscripts. But, they were misled mostly by those Sanskrit terms, as I pointed out above.

Major universities in England, France, and Germany had Professors specialized in Buddhism. Many Asians came to those universities to learn Buddhism. They went back and wrote books with these new interpretations, as I explained in that post: Malasekara, Kalupahana and Jayathilake are some examples. They had English professors who taught them Buddhism!

This is not to degrade the work of those European scholars. I am personally grateful to them for preserving the Pali Tipitaka. But they had no idea about the key message of the Buddha. They were really historians.

Anyway, I would be happy discuss further. Please quote from that post, if I have written somethings that are not clear or not correct.
Have you looked into how Thai and Burmese teachers address the translation of the terms you are interested in? Of course, English translations of their work such as http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Our_Real_Home1.php will tend to use the English translations for your disputed terms, but the context should make clear what is being communicated.


I read the link you provided. There is nothing new there per my explanations above. If there is, can you quote the relevant parts?

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:49 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:16 pm
2.Those European scholars, when they first came across the Asoka pillars, came to the conclusion that Pali was a later iteration of Sanskrit. Of course, there were no Pali manuscripts in India except for the Asoka pillars. This is very clear in Allen’s book. If one really wants to understand the historical developments, one must read that book.

So, they immediately connected anicca to anitya, and anatta to anatma.
Nonsense. There are hundreds of parallel passages in Sanskrit Buddhist texts where Pali nicca appears as Sanskrit nitya, anicca as anitya, attā as ātmān, and anattā as anātmān.

There are no occurrence of these words in the forms that we should expect if there was any truth in your teacher's hare-brained theories.

Below I give some examples of parallels from the Pali Dhammapada and Sanskrit Udānavarga (not a composition of any naughty Europeans!)

Nicca / Nitya

attā have jitaṃ seyyo
yā cāyaṃ itarā pajā
attadantassa posassa
niccaṃ saññatacārino
(Dhammapada 104)

ātmā hy asya jitaḥ śreyāṃ
yac ceyam itarāḥ prajāḥ
ātmadāntasya puruṣasya
nityaṃ saṃvṛtacāriṇaḥ
(Udānavarga 23/4)

Anicca / Anitya

sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā ti
yadā paññāya passati
atha nibbindatã dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiyā
(Dhammapada 277)

anityāṃ sarvasaṃskārāṃ
prajñayā paśyate yadā
atha nirvidyate duḥkhād
eṣa mārgo viśuddhaye
(Udānavarga 12/5)

Attā / Ātman

anupubbena medhāvī
thokathokaṃ khaṇe khaṇe
kammāro rajatasseva
niddhame malam attano
(Dhammapada 239)

anupūrveṇa medhāvī
stokaṃ stokaṃ kṣaṇe kṣaṇe
karmāro rajatasyaiva
nirdhamen malam ātmanaḥ
(Udānavarga 2/10)

Anattā / Anātman

sabbe dhammā anattā ti
yadā paññāya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiyā

sarvadharmā anātmānaḥ
prajñayā paśyate yadā
atha nirvidyate duḥkhād
eṣa mārgo viśuddhaye
(Udānavarga 12/8)

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:26 pm

Nonsense. There are hundreds of parallel passages in Sanskrit Buddhist texts where Pali nicca appears as Sanskrit nitya, anicca as anitya, attā as ātmān, and anattā as anātmān.
The key is " Sanskrit Buddhist texts".

Please find any Pali text in the Tipitaka with the word "nitya". Only in that Sanskrit text that you quoted the word "nitya" shows up. It is not in the Tipitaka.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:28 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:16 pm
Regarding the post by Mike:
...
Thanks, but your reply still appears very Euro/Sri Lankan- centric, so does not really address my point. You would have to do considerably more work to demonstrate that a few European scholars were so influential that they managed to completely mess up the understanding of the Dhamma all over South East Asia among people who didn't even speak English.

And, as Ven Dhammanando observes, considering that there are parallels to the Pali Suttas in Sanskrit, Chinese, and Tibetan, it seems curious that all of Asia is completely mistaken about the key doctrinal terms.

:heart:
Mike

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:50 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:26 pm
Nonsense. There are hundreds of parallel passages in Sanskrit Buddhist texts where Pali nicca appears as Sanskrit nitya, anicca as anitya, attā as ātmān, and anattā as anātmān.
The key is " Sanskrit Buddhist texts".
The point of my post was to show that European scholars did not err in treating Pali anicca as a cognate of the Buddhist Sanskrit anitya. And so on with the other words.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:07 pm

Mike said, " You would have to do considerably more work to demonstrate .."

I will do whatever I can, but I am not obliged to anyone. It is up to you to decide. There are many people who have seen the truth of these facts. and ALSO have made progress on the Path. If I can help clarify more, I certainly will do my best.
And, as Ven Dhammanando observes, considering that there are parallels to the Pali Suttas in Sanskrit, Chinese, and Tibetan, it seems curious that all of Asia is completely mistaken about the key doctrinal terms.
Finding a Sanskrit text with the word "anitya" does not prove anything. As you can see, there are lot of English texts with that word incorrectly referring to anicca.

Please focus on the following point that I am trying to make: A self-consistent explanation can be found within the Pali Tipitaka. So, why get other texts involved, which are definitely of later origin than the Tipitaka?

Furthermore, you all have not been able to find consistent explanations in the way that you have pursued for all these years. Why not just try to find a consistent explanation within the Tipitaka? After all, we do know that it goes back all the way to the first Buddhist Council (Sangayana) just three months after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. All other texts in Chinese, Sanskrit, etc. are later works.

Simplest explanation with less number of sources is the best, as long as it is self-consistent; that is what I did as a scientist and that is what I do now.
I have found no inconsistency within the Tipitaka. If you can find any within puredhamma.net, I would be happy to discuss.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by justindesilva » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:10 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:15 am
But the key word associated with dukkha is "icca".
I still can't match my understanding of Anicca with Dukkha.
However, there are three types of Dukkha.
Dukkha Dukkha and Viparinama Dukka match your interpretation but not the Sankhara Dukkha.
Not getting what you need is not Sankhara Dukka.
Interpreting Dukkha as not getting what you want is run of the mill understanding.
You don't need Buddha to understand it.
@Sarath and all my good friends of damma wheel
While we have this discussion on anitya , I recollected that I had a book now available online which can be down loaded. The book is " Magic of the mind " written by Ven.Katukurunde Nanananda Thero. ( with its Sinhala version Manase mayawa"). He did not obtain his knowledge from
English translations of tripitaka, but straight from pali texts.
In this sinhala version (page 45) of Magic of the mind , he very well explains the meaning of anitya in context to paticca samuppada and is no different to english pali translations. It is my humble request that this book to be downloaded for reading his stand on anitya.
Ven Katukurunde Nanananda thero had written many books on damma, while it is suggested that he has attained a marga pala status. He had obtained a degree from peradeniya university of Sri lanka.
This book " magic of the mind " is based on kalakarama sutta and has a chapter on paticca samuppada , and refers there to anicca.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by James Tan » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:52 am

Lal wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:07 pm
Mike said, " You would have to do considerably more work to demonstrate .."

I will do whatever I can, but I am not obliged to anyone. It is up to you to decide. There are many people who have seen the truth of these facts. and ALSO have made progress on the Path. If I can help clarify more, I certainly will do my best.
And, as Ven Dhammanando observes, considering that there are parallels to the Pali Suttas in Sanskrit, Chinese, and Tibetan, it seems curious that all of Asia is completely mistaken about the key doctrinal terms.
Finding a Sanskrit text with the word "anitya" does not prove anything. As you can see, there are lot of English texts with that word incorrectly referring to anicca.

Please focus on the following point that I am trying to make: A self-consistent explanation can be found within the Pali Tipitaka. So, why get other texts involved, which are definitely of later origin than the Tipitaka?

Furthermore, you all have not been able to find consistent explanations in the way that you have pursued for all these years. Why not just try to find a consistent explanation within the Tipitaka? After all, we do know that it goes back all the way to the first Buddhist Council (Sangayana) just three months after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. All other texts in Chinese, Sanskrit, etc. are later works.

Simplest explanation with less number of sources is the best, as long as it is self-consistent; that is what I did as a scientist and that is what I do now.
I have found no inconsistency within the Tipitaka. If you can find any within puredhamma.net, I would be happy to discuss.
Hi Lal , greeting to you .

According to history the initial written tipitaka in singhala was on 1st century BC if not mistaken .
By 5th century Buddhaghosa translated tipitaka to Pali language . Is this correct ?
After that the singhala tipitaka was lost.

When do you think is the first translation of Chinese tipitaka ? The Samyukta Agama was translated at what time frame ? The Agama translation was not different from the English for the three marks , anicca, dukkha and anatta .
Although the Agama translation was far earlier than the European people .



anicca = non fulfilling ?
dukkha = suffering ?
anatta = helpless ?


Thanks .
:reading:

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:07 am

In response to my post, "https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... -scholars/", Mike had commented:
You would have to do considerably more work to demonstrate that a few European scholars were so influential that they managed to completely mess up the understanding of the Dhamma all over South East Asia..
I came to realize that this is indeed a key point. These days books are so abundant that we automatically think that there must have been many books written in Sinhala (and other Asian languages) on Buddhism before the English translations by British civil servants in the late 1800's. But there were no printed books in Asian countries until the late 1800's. It was fortunate that some dedicated bhikkhus took time to maintain the Pali Tipitaka on palm leaves, which had to be redone every hundred years or so due to their degradation with time.

Even though I had written about the printing press in that post, I had not made it clear how critical that was in making such a huge impact. My thanks to Mike for pointing this out. So, I have revised the post to include the following:

19. August 14, 2018: I just realized that the discussion in #18 above has another important implication, due to a comment at the following discussion forum on the “The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero“. You may want to read the posts there especially from about July 25, 2018 (top of page 16 of that discussion forum).

- It is reasonable to question how a team of European scholars were able to change interpretations of key words like anicca. In a few words, this can be attributed to the revolution in printing that essentially overlapped this period of the “uncovering of Buddhism” by the European scholars.

20. European invasions of Sri Lanka (and essentially all Asian countries) started around the year 1505, and the British took complete control of Sri Lanka in 1815 : “https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... 80%931948)“. British civil servants started their historical works on Buddhism in Asian countries (especially India and Sri Lanka) around 1850.

- The printing press became widely available only after the rotary press was invented in 1843: “http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... ting_press“. As pointed out above, Rhys Davids started publishing the English translations of the Tipitaka in 1881.

- Up to that time, the printed version of the Pali Tipitaka was on specially prepared ola (palm) leaves; see, “https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... he-dhamma/“. This was a laborious process as detailed in that post. Fortunately, bhikkhus kept re-writing the Tipitaka material every hundred years or so, when the “old version” started degrading. There are no surviving Sinhala texts on palm leaves. Of course, there were no bhikkhus in India to maintain their copies of the Pali Tipitaka; only the Asoka pillars survived.

- The key point is that the old Sinhala commentaries had been destroyed long ago, and only the Pali Tipitaka was maintained for hundreds of years when Rhys Davids started publishing the English translations of the Tipitaka in 1881.

- This is why there is no record of the correct interpretations of key words like anicca and anatta in Sinhala. It is safe to assume that the same holds in other Asian countries. The invention of the printing press was a key factor.

The revised post at: https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... -scholars/

Also see, “https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... isleading/“.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Zom » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:27 am

After all, we do know that it goes back all the way to the first Buddhist Council (Sangayana) just three months after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. All other texts in Chinese, Sanskrit, etc. are later works.
Why are you so sure? Just because theravadins say so?
Have you read this? I recommend.

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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:31 am

a few European scholars were so influential that they managed to completely mess up the understanding of the Dhamma all over South East Asia..
@Lal
You know very well that there is a public discussion about the incorrect teaching of the disciples of Ven. Abhyaratanalankara.
The many monks who object do not speak English. They got their knowledge, not from European scholars.
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