The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:37 am

@SarathW:
Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada) describes how any sankata (in this case any living being), arises in this world (since we are talking about suffering): When people do (abhi)sankhara based on avijja (not knowing the true anicca nature of this world), a living being will grasp a new bhava and thus a new jati. Since any such jati (a sankata) is subjected to unexpected decay and eventual death, one becomes anatta (helpless) in the rebirth process (the suffering never ends). The suffering ends only when one truly comprehends the anicca nature and lose tanha or icca or cravings for worldly things.

So, again, the critical point is to first establish what the Buddha meant by that key verse in the Dammacappavattana sutta. I hope you or anyone else can provide the explanation based on your interpretation of anicca as impermanence.

This is the key reason why discussions at this forum and also at other forums like the Sutta Central forum do not go anywhere. People just keep posting nonsensical and even irrelevant refences and links without really addressing the key issues. Just think about how many topics have reached a reasonable conclusion in the past ten years at both these forums?

I faced this issue also at the Sutta Central forum. When I posted logical interpretations, people (and bhikkhus) suddenly bowed out of the discussion, without explaining why they do not agree with my interpretation OR provide their alternate interpretation. That is exactly what justindesilva did above. Are people interested in learning the correct Buddha Dhamma, or they just want to “stick to their wrong views no matter what”?

When one truly understands a given concept, one should be able to explain it in one’s own words (with references to the Tipitaka), without just quoting other people’s work, no matter how “well known” those "experts" are. Isn't that what the Buddha told us in the Kalama sutta?

Anyway, I have no intention of debating for the sake of debating, or try to force my views on anyone. All I want to do is to provide what I believe to be a better explanation, and it is up to each individual to make his/her own conclusions. I am willing to have a reasonable discussion based on facts. So, I will remain silent until I see a post that is worthwhile responding to.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:55 am

one becomes anatta (helpless)
So Nibbana is helpless?
Sabbe Dhamma anatta. (dhamma include Nibbana)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:06 pm

One remains helpless UNTIL one comprehends anicca nature, loses cravings for worldly things, and attains Nibbana. When one attains Nibbana, in Sinhala language one becomes "natha", not "anatha" (or anatta) anymore.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:54 pm

Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta are not three different things they are the three side of the same coin.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:37 pm

Yes. In the Samyutta Nikāya (Anicca Vagga), many suttas including Ajjhattanicca Sutta, Bahiranicca Sutta, and Yadanicca sutta, the Buddha stated that the three characteristics of “this world” are RELATED to each other:

yadaniccam tam dukkham, yam dukkham tadanattā” (“yad aniccam tam dukkham, yam dukkham tad anattā“), i.e.,

“if something is anicca, dukkha arises, therefore anattā”.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:46 am

More discussion about the meaning of Anicca.
The video is in Sinhalese language.
Note the walking elephant and the monkey in the background. :)

It appears the way we see Anicca is incorrect.
For instance, when we see, there is an object, eye (I am or Mana) and the consciousness.
Most of us what we see is the Anicca of the object (object is Anicca but I am still there watching it).
We do not see the Anicca in the eye and the eye consciousness.
Understanding Anicca of the object, eye and the consciousness is the proper way.
Hence when you understand Anicca you understand the Anatta as well.
(Thie teaching is in video 14)


“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:09 am

Are these teachings popular in Sri Lanka? Is there a particular sect or a group that is guided by the teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero?

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:16 am

Are these teachings popular in Sri Lanka?
Yes, his lineage (He passed away last year) has a following in Sri Lanka and overseas.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:47 pm

Here is a short sutta where the Buddha has explicitly stated that BOTH “self” and “no-self” are wrong concepts (even according to the Sutta Central translation): https://suttacentral.net/sn44.10/en/sujato

In this sutta, Vaccagotta asks the Buddha which of the concepts of "self" or "no-self" is correct. The Buddha does not answer and remains silent. After asking the question 3 times, and not getting an answer from the Buddha, Vaccagotta leaves.

Then, Ven. Ananda asks the Buddha why he did not answer the question. Here is Buddha's answer:
Ahañcānanda, vacchagottassa paribbājakassa ‘atthattā’ti puṭṭho samāno ‘atthattā’ti byākareyyaṃ, ye te, ānanda, samaṇabrāhmaṇā sassatavādā tesametaṃ saddhiṃ abhavissa.
Ahañcānanda, vacchagottassa paribbājakassa ‘natthattā’ti puṭṭho samāno ‘natthattā’ti byākareyyaṃ, ye te, ānanda, samaṇabrāhmaṇā ucchedavādā tesametaṃ saddhiṃ abhavissa
."

Here is Sutta Central translation:
“Ānanda, when Vacchagotta asked me whether the self exists absolutely, if I had answered that ‘the self exists absolutely’ I would have been siding with the ascetics and brahmins who are eternalists.
When Vacchagotta asked me whether the self does not exist absolutely, if I had answered that ‘the self does not exist absolutely’ I would have been siding with the ascetics and brahmins who are annihilationists."

Does not this categorically say that the Budha rejected the concept of both "self" and "no-self"?

In that case how is it possible that "anatta" means "no-self"?

This question recently came up in the discussion forum at puredhamma.net. More details can be found there under the topic:
"https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/sn- ... andasutta/"

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:23 pm

Are you saying there is a self in not absolute senses?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:25 pm

Does not this categorically say that the Budha rejected the concept of both "self" and "no-self"?
We all know there is "I" in our thoughts.
What Buddha said was it was a mental construct.
This is no difference to anger and jealousy but a fetter to be eliminated only by Arahants.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:52 pm

All I am saying is that "anatta" CAN NOT be "no-self". Period.

Do you not see that?

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:02 pm

Do you not see that?
No.
Anatta has to be realised. You can't do this by looking at only one Sutta.
It is waste of time trying to teach Anatta to a person like Vacchagota.
It appears he did not have enough intelligence to understand.
Anatta is one of the words most people do not understand.
For instance, the only thing I know is that I do not understand Anatta from my own experience.
Having said that I know some people can't comprehend this even by theory.
Many people before Einstine did not believe that the atom can be split.
But some knew it is possible.
Then Einstine theorised it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:50 pm

I am just curious. You don't believe the Ananda Sutta and you don't believe Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta either!

Can you list a single sutta that you believe and says that "anatta" means "no-self"?

By the way, the Buddha made those two statements to Ven. Ananda, not to Vaccagotta.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:19 am

What Buddha taught was Dependent Origination.
It does not mean there is a self.
The thought you have a self is an ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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