Yes, those are from Lal definition , pure dhamma .
The problem is the definition of anatta .
And he doesn't understand thoroughly Buddhism history especially Chinese Buddhism history .
Yes, those are from Lal definition , pure dhamma .
2600htz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:32 pmHello Lal:
4)While they are obviously connected, i don´t know if its true that understanding the characteristics of nature leads to fully understanding dependent origination ( i do believe understanding dependent origination leads to fully understanding the characteristics of nature, but not the other way around).
5)If that where true, why teach dependent origination?. If that where true, why people need meditation to get into the anagami or arahant stage?.
Does a person experiencing the cessation of perception and feeling gets his taints destroyed by seeing the characteristics of nature or dependent origination?.
6)If you can come up with a better analogy its welcome, but my take is like an aeroplane pilot: His knowledge of aerodinamics is equivalent to the knowledge of the characteristics of nature, but his knowledge of how to drive the plane is equivalent to the knowledge of dependent origination.
Hai 2600 htz.
My apologies for intervening. But I can see your genuine desires for answers re paticca samuppada and its connection with tri lakkana with examples.
So I wish to request downloading the book " Magic of the mind" by Katukurunde Nanananda thero. as it is a book that can answer such questions. It is available online.
( though I made a general request to this effect on this post , does not seem to have been noticed).
Ven. K. Nanananda thero was an aranyavasi and a marga phala labhi bikku.
I did not mean that in a derogatory way. My sincere apologies if it came that way. Sometimes I try to make a point and can be too direct. That is a flaw I have, and every day I ask forgiveness if I had inadvertently offended anyone (especially an Ariya upvada is a serious offense; it can block the Path to Nibbana). This is one drawback in participating in online discussions.Further I noted that you have remarked that Ven. Katukurunde Nanananda thera does not know what vinnana is.
Hello:Lal wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:07 am@2600htz and justindesilva:
Sorry I missed it.
May be the word “automatically” needs to removed from my statement:” "It is true that Buddha Dhamma is Dependent Origination (DO), or Paticca Samuppada. But that is not separate from Tilakkhana (Characteristics of Nature: anicca, dukkha, anatta). Understanding one automatically leads to the understanding of the other."
Rather, I should have said that understanding of Tilakkhana (fruitless nature of striving to attain long-term happiness in this world AND that effort only leads to the mass of suffering or dukkhakkhandha) is intrinsically tied to understanding HOW that suffering arises via paticca samuppada (PS) steps.
Avijja is not knowing the anicca nature. We think that we can attain happiness by working hard, and that could be true in the short term. One can get a good job or build a nice house by working hard. But when one dies, one has to leave all that behind. Then one is reborn and does the same again, if one is fortunate enough to be reborn human.
- This “working hard” involves thinking (mano and vaci sankhara), planning (vaci sankhara), and actual doing things (kaya sankhara). Nothing wrong with that UNLESS one does dasa akusala in that process (killing, stealing, etc). Then those become abhisankhara, with the potential to bring future suffering. This is really the first step in PS.
When we do abhisankhara, that leads to DEFILED vinnana, or a defiled mindset. This is what creates kamma bija (kammic energy) that can bring kamma vipaka in the future. Making a defiled vinnana via “(abhi)sankhara paccaya vinnana” is like giving rise to a seed that can bring about a tree in the future when it is planted and is germinated.
This germination of a kamma seed happens at a future time (especially at death or more precisely at the cuti-patisandhi moment). At that time that vinnana, which may have been created even in a previous life), brings back a memory of that kamma (namarupa or nimitta in this case). That is the “vinnana paccaya namarupa in a PS cycle involving rebirth (uppatti PS).
Then it goes through a number of steps and grasps that bhava according to the kamma that was done. Those steps are “upadana paccaya bhava” and “bhava paccaya jati”. Now, if the kamma was, say, killing a human, that bhava or next existence could be in the niraya (hell), and then one will be born (jati) in hell. Then “jati paccaya jara, marana, soka, ..” happens until that kammic energy is exhausted.
But a critical point in these steps occurs at the “vedana paccaya tanha”, “tanha paccaya upadana” steps. When one gets that nimtta of a birth in the niraya appears at the moment of death, one WILL NOT grasp it if one has attained the Sotapanna stage. A Sotapanna's mind has grasped the truth of the "anicca nature" and has a higher level of panna (wisdom), so it WILL NOT grasp that nimitta. This is ahy Angulimala was able to attain the Arahanthood, even after killing almost 1000 people: those past kamma bija do not get to germinate.
But one needs to really understand what is meant by all these terms (vedana, tanha, upadana) in order to understand this process.
That cannot be done in a single post or even several posts. It takes an effort to read about them and understand them. That is the real vipassana or insight meditation.
Those who are interested should read the "https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppada/" section, which is of course inevitably linked to the “https://puredhamma.net/key-hidden-dhamm ... -anatta-2/” section. This will take some serious reading.
Another way is to go back and read this forum from sometime back. Then things could start to become clear. Buddha Dhamma can go very deep, but one MUST know the basics first.
I assume you are referring to this passage from Nibbana - the mind stilled http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/ Sermon 7:Lal wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:22 pmjustinsilva said:I did not mean that in a derogatory way. My sincere apologies if it came that way. Sometimes I try to make a point and can be too direct. That is a flaw I have, and every day I ask forgiveness if I had inadvertently offended anyone (especially an Ariya upvada is a serious offense; it can block the Path to Nibbana). This is one drawback in participating in online discussions.Further I noted that you have remarked that Ven. Katukurunde Nanananda thera does not know what vinnana is.
What I meant was that in reading his series on "Nibbana - The Mind Stilled", it is quite clear that he has freely admitted that he did not know what is meant by anidassana vinnana. For example, on p. 157 of Nibbana Sermon 7 (I printed the online version), he refers to a verse in the Brahmamanimanika sutta (MN 49) regarding vinnanam anidassanam and says: "This peculiar paragraph, listing thirteen concepts, seems to convey something deep about the non-manifestative consciousness..". This is just one statement that I just found. There were many statements in his series that made it clear to me he did not understand vinnana.
Clearly, he's not saying "I don't understand this". He gives an explanation. Of course, you may well disagree with his explanation, but it seems odd to claim that:This peculiar paragraph, listing thirteen concepts, seems to con-
vey something deep about the nature of the non-manifestative con-
sciousness. That consciousness does not partake of the earthiness of
earth, the wateriness of water, the fieriness of fire, and the airiness of
air. That is to say, the nature of the four elements does not inhere in
this consciousness, they do not manifest themselves in it. Similarly,
the other concepts, like deva-hood, Brahma-hood, etc., which the
worldlings take seriously as real, have no applicability or validity
The special significance of this assertion lies in the context in
which the Buddha declared it. It is to dispel a wrong view that Baka
the Brahma conceived, in regarding his Brahma status as permanent,
ever lasting and eternal, that the Buddha made this declaration before
that Brahma himself in the Brahma world. The whole point of the
discourse, then, is to challenge the wrong view of the Brahma, by as-
serting that the non-manifestative consciousness of the arahant is
above the worldly concepts of elements and divinity and the ques-
tionable reality attributed to them. In other words, they do not mani-
fest themselves in it. They are transcended.
[H]e has freely admitted that he did not know what is meant by anidassana vinnana.
That is not an answer. You are just referring to some incomplete translation of two suttas. Can you describe in your own words what vinnana is?Pabhassara Sutta
I'm not interested in debating your interpretation of Anidassana Viññāṇa, I was merely pointing out that you were completely misunderstanding Ven Nananada's statements when you said:Lal wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:08 pm@Mike:
I know that what you quoted does not explain anything because I have given a full explanation. Here is a quote from that post:
“Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ, taṃ pathaviyā pathavattenaananubhūtaṃ, āpassa āpattena ananubhūtaṃ, tejassa tejattena ananubhūtaṃ, vāyassavāyattena ananubhūtaṃ, bhūtānaṃ bhūtattena ananubhūtaṃ, devānaṃ devattenaananubhūtaṃ, pajāpatissa pajāpatittena ananubhūtaṃ, brahmānaṃ brahmattenaananubhūtaṃ, ābhassarānaṃ ābhassarattena ananubhūtaṃ, subhakiṇhānaṃ subhakiṇhānaṃ subhakiṇhattena ananubhūtaṃ, vehapphalānaṃ vehapphalattena ananubhūtaṃ, abhibhussa abhibhuttena ananubhūtaṃ, sabbassa sabbattena ananubhūtaṃ.”.
Translated: “Viññāna is unseen, infinite, and leads to the rebirth process for all. With viññāna (defiled consciousness) one cannot comprehend the real nature of patavi, āpo, tējo, vāyo, bhūta, deva, pajapti brahma, abhassara brahma, subhakinha brahma, vehapphala brahma, etc. and everything in this world (sabba)”.
You can read the complete post with detailed explanations at the post (title is "Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means"):
https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/na ... lly-means/
I have given a complete analysis of the sutta in question in that post. There are other posts referred to that need to be read also. Please take time and read the relevant posts. I would be happy to discuss if you have questions. Please refer to bullet numbers or quote from any post when asking a question; that will make it easier to discuss.
Clearly you think that he doesn't understand anidassana vinnana, but that's a completely different issue...What I meant was that in reading his series on "Nibbana - The Mind Stilled", it is quite clear that he has freely admitted that he did not know what is meant by anidassana vinnana.
I accept the dictionary definition of annihilation
I am in agreement with Lal in this regard.A simple description of vinnana is "defiled consciousness".
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