The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:56 am

uppatti paticca samuppada
Where in Sutta do you find this different type of DO?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:08 pm

"Where in Sutta do you find this different type of DO?"

Vibhangapakarana (book 1), Paticca Samuppada Vibhanga (pp.244-338), Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka Series, Vol. XLII.

justindesilva
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:43 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:56 am
uppatti paticca samuppada
Where in Sutta do you find this different type of DO?
To my understanding DO is a process of existence. Trying to analyse it from the languages translated ( when and where experts do not agree) makes us entangled in another complexity. The best way to understand it is by analysis through meditation ( vipassana).
If we can analyse and explain DO then it will be similar to explaining a complex chemical equation , with various atomic bondages.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:08 am

Vibhangapakarana (book 1), Paticca Samuppada Vibhanga (pp.244-338), Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka Series, Vol. XLII.
Is the following same?

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:24 pm

"Vibhangapakarana (book 1), Paticca Samuppada Vibhanga (pp.244-338), Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka Series, Vol. XLII.

Is the following same?

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti"

Yes. It seems to be a translation of the Tipitaka section that I quoted. However, I do not know how accurate that translation is. Those who know Sinhala can read the Sinhala translation included in the reference that I quoted. One can at least get the general idea.

I must warn that it goes into minute details. Each paticca samuppada cycle actually has 16 cycles running inside it. This is why the Buddha told Ven. Ananda that paticca samuppada is very deep, and not to be taken lightly.

Those who are interested in pursuing this, I suggest reading the section on Paticca Samuppada at Puredhamma.net. It does not go into such details (yet), but I have tried to provide the basic material to get started.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:37 am

Vibhangapakarana (book 1), Paticca Samuppada Vibhanga (pp.244-338), Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka Series, Vol. XLII.
Is there an internet link for this?
Is this copyright free?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:38 am

I suggest reading the section on Paticca Samuppada at Puredhamma.net.
Could you give the link?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:27 am

@SarathW:

I do not have a link for the Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka, even though it is likely to be online. I have the physical book set (most of it).

Link to the Paticca Samuppada section at Puredhamma.net: "https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppada/".

justindesilva
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:47 am

@to all who try to understand DO
If we can answer the link between the world ( earth & cosmos) and beings with priority to human beings, then that is a practical clue to understand DO.
The answer is in suttas , starting from Agganna sutta , to our own knowledge of pancendriya.
Or answer the question as to ' why am I on this earth ".
every link (12 nidanas) of DO is anitya , impermanence.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:42 pm

@Lal
in the following video in the Sinhalese language, Ven Kumara Kassap clearly explain why the teaching of
Ven Abhaya is incomplete. When Anatta is explained as Anartha it distorts the meaning.
Because of Anartha (fruitless nature of existence) is lie within the existence and non-existence.
What Buddha taught is the Dependent Origination.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:39 pm

@SarathW:
I will be happy to discuss this at a later time, when I get an answer to the more fundamental question that I asked at the forum,"pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net" recently : "viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31242&start=15". I see that no one has refuted my explanation. Does that mean no one disagrees? Then why do you insist on translating anicca as impermanence?

This has happened so many times now. Whenever I give my explanation to a question of yours (or someone else), no one is able to provide an explanation based on your interpretation. Then you come up with another question, and again I provide my explanation, but there is no rebuttal. This is an endless process.

Could you or anyone else please explain how the concept of "impermanence" was used by the Buddha to explain the arising of suffering in this world? That is a key issue that needs to be addressed before we can get into other aspects. After all, Dhammacappavattana Sutta is the first sutta delivered by the Buddha and thus encompasses the essence of his Dhamma. Here is my last posting in the above forum where I explained a key verse from the Dhammacappavattana Sutta:

justindesilva had asked about the Dhamma­cakkap­pa­vat­ta­na Sutta: "https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/sn56.11". Since this is really the key issue, I thought about providing an analysis on the relevant verse, for the cause of arising of suffering in this world. It is expressed in the following verse:

"Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ—jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhaṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ—saṃkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā. Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, duk­kha­sa­muda­yaṃ ariyasaccaṃ".

Translated (not word-by-word, but to provide the meaning): "“This, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union (sampayogo) with what is what one does not like (appiyehi) is suffering; separation (vippayogo) from what one likes (piyehi) is suffering; not to get what one likes ( yam pi iccham) is suffering; in brief, craving for the five aggregates (pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā) is suffering.

So, this does not say anything about impermanence. The suffering arises when one does things based on the cravings (tanha based on icca)for worldly things.

The general statement about how one gets to suffering is: "yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ". One gets distraught when one does not get one likes. One may do dasa akusala to get what one likes, and that gets one into even deeper trouble because that brings bad kamma vipaka.

But the key point is that any material thing in this world cannot be maintained to one's satisfaction IN THE LONG RUN. That is because all sankata (living beings, plants, houses, star systems like our Solar system, anything in the universe) are not only destroyed (impermanent), but ALSO are subject to the viparinama nature (subjected to UNEXPECTED change DURING its existence).

This is the key characteristic of Nature expressed by anicca, which comes from "na + icca", or NOT possible to maintain in the way one's desires. To emphasize the anicca nature, sometimes it is written as "aniccha". In Sinhala අනිච්ච to අනිච්ජ.

The whole world is included in the pancakkhandha. But each person craves or desires (also called tanha) for only a fraction of things in this world and that is pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā.

So, there is NOTHING said about impermanence or momentary destruction of a sankata. In a previous post above, I have explained that the only thing that is destroyed in 17 thought moments is a citta or more precisely a citta vithi (loosely translated as a thought). A sankata like a human body will last about 100 years, a house may last several hundreds of years, and our Solar system will last billions of years.

By the way, the way to stop suffering is in the following verses: by seeing (not with eyes, but with wisdom or panna) this true nature and thereby getting rid of tanha or cravings or icca: "yo tassāyeva taṇhāya asesa­virāga­nirodho.."

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:03 pm

Could you or anyone else please explain how the concept of "impermanence" was used by the Buddha to explain the arising of suffering in this world?
It appears when Buddha taught about Anicca he was not talking about the transient nature of the Rupa.
Could you give your opinion on the following post?

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=32378
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:38 pm

@SarathW:
My answer is the same as above. I don't want to waste my time responding to your questions, which are based on an incorrect interpretation of the foundation of Buddha Dhamma: How suffering arises due to the anicca nature, as I pointed out above.

justindesilva
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by justindesilva » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:04 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:03 pm
Could you or anyone else please explain how the concept of "impermanence" was used by the Buddha to explain the arising of suffering in this world?
It appears when Buddha taught about Anicca he was not talking about the transient nature of the Rupa.
Could you give your opinion on the following post?

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=32378
@sarath
As Learned Lal gives an explanation of Anicca which I disagree , I did not want to answer his explanation , aftèr verifying with close buddhist friends.
Lord budda' realisation of anatta and impermanence has been accepted by buddhist priests for so long and there had been 12000 arhants at Situlpavuva.
Late Balangoda ananda maithrya thero, Late Narada thero and two of The Katukurunde theros had explained in there books , along with many other bikkus from Burma that anitya is referred to all phenomena ( sabbe sankara anicca) which includes the earth , cosmos ( agganna sutta and vasetta sutta, Rohitassa sutta) as impermanent.
I was in close association of a burmese ( former priest for one year) who explained that the best explanation of impermanence is paticca samupada, as explained by lord budda.
I too have done my own research , of buddhism with references to sutta. ( My references to pali terms were with translations from the books by Rev. Nyanathilaka thero of Galduwa aranya who had done so much of research in buddhist abhidamma)
I of course agree with Lal on one thing that pancendriya is impermanent , but wish to say that pancendriya co relates to the earth and cosmos, which are also changing every second because the whole universe is never at rest.
I do not wish to pursue an argument further on this.
However I pursue on DO and arya ashtangika marga with Dana sila bhavana.
Last edited by justindesilva on Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:18 am

I do not wish to pursue an argument further on this.
I think we had a quite a civilised discussion here.
Even prominent monks like Thanissaro has a different opinion on Anatta.
To me, Anatta means Dependent Origination.
@Lal at least do you agree with me on this point?\
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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