The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

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Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Mon May 21, 2018 1:19 pm

OK. If you are happy with your understanding that is all that matters.

hsandeepani
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by hsandeepani » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:05 am

There are many resources that point out the problems with these talks. Here are some.

https://rawanaking.blogspot.com/2017/01/2.html

http://www.dhammikaweb.com/?p=21029

May you be blessed by the Tripple Gem.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:14 am

It appears this debate has now come to the mainstream.

Many thousands of Buddhist monks now questioning the teaching of Ven WA.
Ven. Sudassana quite correctly pointed out this is the result of many monks not studying the Sutta.


“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

2600htz
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by 2600htz » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:14 pm

Hello:

It would be helpful if someone among his disciples made subtitles for his videos, this isn´t happening?.

Regards.

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:38 pm

@hsandeepani:
I did not see any discussion at all in your first video on the teachings of Waharaka Thero (Ven. Abhayaratanalankara).

In the second short video, most of the criticism is not on actual teachings, but just verbal abuse. Again there is no discussion on any teachings of Waharaka Thero. I cannot defend teachings by any other person who is perceived to be a disciple of Waharaka Thero. In this particular case, Waharaka Thero has specifically said that other bhikkhu’s interpretations may not be correct in some cases.

@SarathW:
59mins- 103 mins: Here in refuting anicca as “na icca”, Ven. Sudassana contradicts himself by taking the “vedana” itself as suffering. He says correctly that one should not take vedana itself as the dukha, but in his example of a child’s death his explanation is based on the vedana felt by the father.

Then he says one should not waste time in analyzing Wharaka Thero's interpretations, and starts talking about why bhikkhus should discuss Tipitaka suttas instead.

The problem is that one cannot correctly interpret Tipitaka suttas if key words and phrases (such as anicca and anatta among many others) are translated incorrectly. I have translated several Tipitaka suttas, and I welcome anyone pointing out any errors:
"https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpretations/"

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:06 pm

The problem is that one cannot correctly interpret Tipitaka suttas if key words and phrases (such as anicca and anatta among many others) are translated incorrectly.
Words are just words.
What is important is to understand the key meaning of underlining the word.
Buddha used Hindu terms and gave a different meaning.
What we see is Ven WA provided a wrong meaning to the word Anatta.
You can understand this by examining the following post in SC.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... ta/4971/48
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:49 pm

@SarathW:
"Buddha used Hindu terms and gave a different meaning."

Those are not Hindu words. Those words came from Kassapa Buddha who was there before the Gotama Buddha.

Anyway, it is fruitless to have discussions with those who do not want to listen. You have not posted a sensible response to any of my previous posts. I spent a lot of time writing those, and you just post a link in response.
So, I will not waste my time anymore regarding your posts.

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:53 am

Those words came from Kassapa Buddha who was there before the Gotama Buddha.
Does it say in Sutta?
Could you give me the link to Sutta?
:anjali:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:57 am

Ven. Sudassana contradicts himself by taking the “vedana” itself as suffering. He says correctly that one should not take vedana itself as the dukha
Do you mean there are pleasant felling, unpleasant feeling and neutral feelings?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:05 pm

I did not see any discussion at all in your first video on the teachings of Waharaka Thero (Ven. Abhayaratanalankara).
Perhaps this is about his chief disciple Walasmulle Abhaya.
The following video is in the Sinhalese language.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:02 am

It is very clear. This gathering is mainly about the teaching of Ven, Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero.
The following video is in the Sinhalese language.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm

The above video posted by SarathW is supposed to discuss evidence that Ven. Abhayaratanalankara (Waharaka Thero) has distorted Buddha Dhamma.

I watched the whole video and there is almost no discussion of key concepts like anicca, dukkha, anatta or paticca samuppada or the Four Noble Truths. Furthermore, only a few snippets that were shown as “evidence” were from Ven. Abhaya and Ven. Meevanapalane Dhammalankara. Even though they had learned Dhamma from Waharaka Thero, they have somewhat deviated from Waharaka Thero in some instances.

For example, Waharaka Thero did not discuss the issue of whether the Buddha was born in Sri Lanka. He had said that it is an issue that he was not going to engage in. Against his advice, Ven. Dhammalankara started that discussion. After the passing away of Waharaka Thero, Ven. Abhaya started giving too much significance to cultivation of jhana. I discuss these points in the post: “https://puredhamma.net/new-revised-post ... aka-thero/".

Therefore, If someone intends to criticize Waharaka Thero’s teachings, they should directly quote from his desanas.

In any case, the following is a summary of what is in that video.

Around 15 minutes, it is stated that Ven. Abhaya’s interpretation of a Sotapanna having at most seven more “bhava” is not correct. But they do not even say what their correct interpretation is. In fact, I would ask them to explain the difference between bhava and jati.
The segment from 20-45 mins, is about a committee that was formed to “investigate” the distortion of Buddha Dhamma and apparently nothing came of it. Acariya Buddhaghosa is mentioned with high reverence, but there is only minor issue to do with the 13 dhutanga (ascetic practices) is discussed as a “significant contribution” from him. These are not issues of high importance and it is possible that Acariya Buddhaghosa introduced Hindu concepts there too; I have not read his description on that, so I don't really know.

Around 45 mins, there is a brief discussion of patavi nimitta. This is related to the kasina mediation that Acariya Buddhaghosa imported from Hinduism. To learn about real kasina mediation recommended by the Buddha, I would suggest reading the Maha Rahulovada Sutta. Regarding the length of the Buddha Sasana, there is a comment made that Cullavagga Pali was written by Buddhaghosa, which is wrong. It is in the original Tipitaka and Acariya Buddhaghosa wrote his commentaries only around 450 CE.

From about 50 – 70 mins, there is a good explanation Samanamundika Sutta (MN 78), but that did not make any connection to Waharaka desanas (i.e., no contradictions discussed).

For the next 50 mins, there is a long rant about the “harm done to Buddha Dhamma by Waharaka Thero and his followers” but absolutely nothing substantial is said about what kind of harm is done.

Then almost at the end it was mentioned by another bhikkhu that people are attracted to Waharaka interpretations, because they make sense in many instances. However, he also talked about “Dhamma distortions” done by Waharaka Thero, but without any specifics.

So, that is what I heard. If I missed something, please let me know.

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:29 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
...evidence that Ven. Abhayaratanalankara (Waharaka Thero) has distorted Buddha Dhamma.
...
Hi Lal,

Are you concerned about the possibility of it being the case?

I disagree with several things.

Take for starters the definition of Vinnana Anidassanam;
Once the Arahant stage is reached, the mind becomes totally pure (anidassana viññāna [...] is attained)
https://puredhamma.net/dhamma/what-is-b ... g-nibbana/
What is the Sutta justification for this?

Also what i would like to know is how do you explain these terms:
* Superlative attainment (SN44.2 or AN11.10)
* Signless deliverance of mind (animittā cetovimutt)
* Cessation of perception and feeling, and on what ground is it proclaimed as highest pleasure (MN 59)
short answers are ok but answer as you see fit anyway
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

Lal
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by Lal » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:41 pm

@rightviewftw;

Hello,

Here are two posts that explains anidassana vinnana with references form the Tipitaka:
https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/na ... lly-means/

https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

I am a bit busy this week. I will try to answer the other questions when I get time.

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rightviewftw
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Re: The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:27 pm

Lal wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:41 pm
@rightviewftw;

Hello,

Here are two posts that explains anidassana vinnana with references form the Tipitaka:
https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/na ... lly-means/

https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

I am a bit busy this week. I will try to answer the other questions when I get time.
It seems to me friend that you from beginning assume Vinnana Anidassanam to mean the Vinnana Aggregate.

I notice that you do not actually explain the verse itself:
"Where do earth, water, fire and air no footing find?
Where are long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
Where are “name-and-form” brought to an end?'

“And the answer is:

"Vinnana Anidassana", limitless, all-illuminating,

Then water, earth, fire, & wind find no footing,
Then long & short, small & large, pleasant & unpleasant -
Then “name-&-form” are all brought to an end.

With the cessation of viññāṇa, all this is brought to an end.'”
I will pose some questions friend, answer as you like;
Given that Vinnana Anidassanam is limitless, all-illuminaous when Vinnana is brought to an end along with name&form:
Name-&-form doesn't exist when consciousness doesn't exist. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.'
This excerpt shows that indeed whith the cessation of consciousness there is cessation of Name&Form.
The path to cessation of Vinnana:
From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness
At which point contact also ceases and thus feeling ceases (because feeling is conjoined consciousness):
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling...
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes.
So from these we get that the 8FNP leads to cessation of The Primary Elements and forms Derived from primary elements (Ie eye, nose, body, ear..) Consciousness, Contact and Feeling.
"And what is form? The four great existents [the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property] and the form derived from them: this is called form. From the origination of nutriment comes the origination of form. From the cessation of nutriment comes the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of form
So my question is thus:
- How is Vinnana Anidassanam the consciousness of an Arahant when Name&Form along with Primary Elements and Vinnana are all brought to an End by means of the 8FNP? Is Arahant without Name&Form, is an Arahant without contact, without Feeling? Which brings me to the second point:
As the verse says
pleasant & unpleasant are brought to an end
the natural assumption seems to be that this is because Vinnana is brought to an end along with feeling
"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"
At this point friend, you say that Vinnana Anidassanam is the Consciousness of an Arahant but it has explicitly been stated that an Arahant cognizes pleasant and he cognizes unpleasant feelings
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
Thus my second question friend is how can Vinnana Anidassanam be the Consciousness of an Arahant if Vinnana Anidassanam is limitless when pleasant and unpleasant are brought to an end by means of cessation of Vinnana?
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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