Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
SarathW
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:33 pm

It is naive, lacking faith, asked in bad faith, dependent on the definition of "faith" in question.
Perhaps this story is a parable.
Some say this story is a symbol of Buddha going against the accepted practices on those days.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:35 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:33 pm
It is naive, lacking faith, asked in bad faith, dependent on the definition of "faith" in question.
Perhaps this story is a parable.
Some say this story is a symbol of Buddha going against the accepted practices on those days.
Some would say that calling the story "a parable" is the same thing as saying that is it "false".
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:42 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:20 am
The power of augury operating via dhammaniyāma, prophetic dreams, earthquakes occurring at pivotally auspicious moments, marvels wrought by saccakiriyās, etc. are all impeccably Buddhist, even if they happen not to find favour with protestant Buddhists of the drearily modernist sort.
If you will forgive me to propose a question to serve most-likely as a starting point for the defences of others: all of these things above that you specify, "prophetic dreams, earthquakes occurring at pivotally auspicious moments, marvels wrought [...]" are regular features, very very regular, of Mahāyānasūtrāṇi. Does that make them "true"? I suspect not. What makes these instances true and "properly Buddhist", vs Mahāyānasūtrāṇi?
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:49 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 am
From my experience, signs become less superstitious when the individual's attitude towards life becomes less manipulative.
:goodpost:

PS: Apparently there is a footprint on the moon. Perhaps these days that is a "regular occurrence".
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:53 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:36 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:26 pm
she also warned me not to go down to the river at night because of the ghosts.....
For example: I have heard that the standard advice for when one is being visited by a ghost is to send it to an accomplished practitioner. I apply it. My father sometimes has nightmares in which he speaks in his sleep. Usually, he's being tormented by someone and he is crying out "Let me go!" I go to his room and I ask the ghost to go to Ajahn Lee, for example. It works. Without waking, my father calms down and goes back to sleep. Otherwise, the nightmares continue and I can't stop them unless I forcibly wake my father up; upon which he is very distressed.
My boyfriend saw a ghost once. She was performed weird unknown rites involving muttering over my body. He tried to help me, but was suffering from sleep paralysis. Eventually, he managed to utter the phrase "help me" and the demon retreated from me, went around the room, and disappeared before the icon of Saint Sarah that hangs in our room. How does that relate? The demon was obviously a "ghost" in the sense that is was a "dead person". Did the demon "exist"? Or was it a fabrication of his dreams?

The Venerable Vasubandhu, in his Vimśatikāvijñaptimātratāsiddhi, argues that the "all" is "mind-only" based on, amongst other things, that dreams are identical to waking reality. Are dreams identical to waking reality?
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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binocular
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:58 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:01 pm
Point is: it is a wild and unambiguously "magical" miracle of the Buddha.
You calling it wild doesn't make it so ...
No "the river was interfered with by a mountain" that can explain it.
But why would one want to explain it in the first place?
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:35 pm
Some would say that calling the story "a parable" is the same thing as saying that is it "false".
Indeed.
Some say that only by discarding falsehoods do we progress. Perhaps the Buddha, or more accurately "the Buddhisms", gives us a few extra falsehoods, like "the path" itself, to help us.
But that's just holding up common sense realism as the highest and unassailable epistemic standard. If one is going to do that, then why bother with Buddhism?
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:53 pm
The Venerable Vasubandhu, in his Vimśatikāvijñaptimātratāsiddhi, argues that the "all" is "mind-only" based on, amongst other things, that dreams are identical to waking reality. Are dreams identical to waking reality?
1. That is a question asked while taking common sense realism for granted.
2. It's a matter of how one defines terms.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:15 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:01 pm
. Some say that only by discarding falsehoods do we progress. Perhaps the Buddha, or more accurately "the Buddhisms", gives us a few extra falsehoods, like "the path" itself, to help us.
But that's just holding up common sense realism as the highest and unassailable epistemic standard. If one is going to do that, then why bother with Buddhism?
Perhaps some hold, instead of common sense realism, Buddhavacana as the "highest and unassailable epistemic standard". The path is not asaṃskṛta, neither in Chinese nor Pāli. It is in Sanskrit, though, if anyone still entertains Sarvāstivāda sympathies.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

SarathW
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:35 pm

No, it is not false perhaps it is a coincidence.
It may be something similar to Moses dividing the red sea story.
I believe in that story. Because I have been to a place you can walk to an island when it is low tides.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:56 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:35 pm
No, it is not false perhaps it is a coincidence.
It may be something similar to Moses dividing the red sea story.
I believe in that story. Because I have been to a place you can walk to an island when it is low tides.
At the same time, that is a very modernist reading of that story. Traditionally, Moses parted the Red Sea, not the Reed Sea. The Red Sea is much larger and deeper than the Reed Sea.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:58 pm
No "the river was interfered with by a mountain" that can explain it.
But why would one want to explain it in the first place?
This is something you should ask sarathw. Sarathw asked for an explanation....not me. This thread was started as a request for an explanation....all I (and others) did was to try to give the explanation which was requested.

I've tried to broach this topic with sarathw but I am ignored.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:20 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:58 pm
Some say that only by discarding falsehoods do we progress. Perhaps the Buddha, or more accurately "the Buddhisms", gives us a few extra falsehoods, like "the path" itself, to help us.
But that's just holding up common sense realism as the highest and unassailable epistemic standard. If one is going to do that, then why bother with Buddhism?
No its not. There are many many reasons why people might say that. For example this is what alot of scientists say and their saying this does not come form common sense realism.

Your post is just you wanting to argue from the position that it is just holding up common sense realism.....but that is a false position....
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binocular
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:30 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:35 pm
No, it is not false perhaps it is a coincidence.
It may be something similar to Moses dividing the red sea story.
I believe in that story. Because I have been to a place you can walk to an island when it is low tides.
That misses the point then, the point being that Moses had God-given powers to defy the natural elements.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:36 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:30 pm
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:35 pm
No, it is not false perhaps it is a coincidence.
It may be something similar to Moses dividing the red sea story.
I believe in that story. Because I have been to a place you can walk to an island when it is low tides.
That misses the point then, the point being that Moses had God-given powers to defy the natural elements.
Or that the Buddha could do this, "defy" the "natural" elements, on account of his own cultivation of ṛddhi, not because the Buddha happened to notice the river flowing differently and decided to take advantage of that.

What if the Buddha's bowl flowed against the stream as a literary echo of how the Buddha defies the "stream" of transmigrations. Would that make the story "false"?
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:45 pm


chownah

SarathW
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:13 pm

What if the Buddha's bowl flowed against the stream as a literary echo of how the Buddha defies the "stream" of transmigrations.
That is how I interpreted it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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binocular
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:20 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:36 pm
Or that the Buddha could do this, "defy" the "natural" elements, on account of his own cultivation of ṛddhi
I'm not sure about that. I think it's more that the whole Universe transpired in such a way that the Buddha emerged.

I'm not sure it is adequate to portray the Buddha as similar to a romantic hero who out of chaos creates order, acting out of his own innate creative potential.
What if the Buddha's bowl flowed against the stream as a literary echo of how the Buddha defies the "stream" of transmigrations. Would that make the story "false"?
I think it would be a common-sensical explanation of the story.

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:52 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:35 pm
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:33 pm
It is naive, lacking faith, asked in bad faith, dependent on the definition of "faith" in question.
Perhaps this story is a parable.
Some say this story is a symbol of Buddha going against the accepted practices on those days.
Some would say that calling the story "a parable" is the same thing as saying that is it "false".
Calling a story or a parable true or false is a misrepresentation. Stories are not true or false...they are just stories. It is what the story brings to our minds and how we interpret it which contains any concept of trueness or falseness to be found.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by chownah » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:09 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:22 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:17 pm
I think the OP misunderstood the cleric and though that he was claiming that the river flowed "backward" here. A river flowing "backward" would carry the Buddha's bowl upstream. This still does not address the specification that the Buddha's bowl went against the stream of the river. It is an understandable mistake IMO. The documentary is somewhat unclear.
And yet several posters took it upon themselves to find a common-sensical explanation for how the Buddha's bowl could float against the stream. How come they did that?
Because it is the topic of discussion for this thread....now do you understand how come they do that?
chownah

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:09 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:20 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: What if the Buddha's bowl flowed against the stream as a literary echo of how the Buddha defies the "stream" of transmigrations. Would that make the story "false"?
I think it would be a common-sensical explanation of the story.
Is it? What makes it common-sensical? The underlying belief that the Buddha likely did not float around shooting fire & water out of his body because "we" (whoever that is) never seem to see people floating around performing such actions, or because the trees of the forest do not usually bow themselves down to the ground in prostration when a Dharma Master passes by?

Some people say and/or believe (or perceive, I suppose!) realized lamas do not touch the ground. They float ever-so-slightly above it. They will say that if you look really closely at X or Y YouTube video of them preaching, you can actually see this slight levitation. I have never spotted it, despite being shown it and having it allegedly pointed out to me by a "true believer".
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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binocular
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Re: Is Ganges river back flow in Varanasi?

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:12 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:09 am
Because it is the topic of discussion for this thread....now do you understand how come they do that?
As long as there exist alternative -- traditional, actually -- explanations of how come that bowl floated in the opposite direction, the scope of this topic is, obviously, wider than just trying to come up with common-sensical explanations.

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