Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
SarathW
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by SarathW » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:30 am

. What is the problem with it?
In nutshell it is not right mindfulness.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:39 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 am
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:19 am
The quotes appear to be about cultivating awareness of the sensation of taste. What is the problem with it?
That would depend on who the reader is. For a follower of Aristippus of Cyrene I shouldn't think there would be any problem at all with it. The whole book would serve as a splendid guide on how to maximize his enjoyment of the five cords of sense-pleasure.

On the other hand, a follower of the Buddha looking for a good guide to dhammānupassanā may find that a few things of vital importance have been omitted.
“Here bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating dhammas as dhammas, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

[...]

“Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating dhammas as dhammas in terms of the six internal and external bases. And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating dhammas as dhammas in terms of the six internal and external bases? Here a bhikkhu understands the tongue, he understands tastes, and he understands the fetter that arises dependent on both; and he also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen fetter, and how there comes to be the abandoning of the arisen fetter, and how there comes to be the future non-arising of the abandoned fetter.

[...]

“In this way he abides contemplating dhammas as dhammas internally, or he abides contemplating dhammas as dhammas externally, or he abides contemplating dhammas as dhammas both internally and externally. Or else he abides contemplating in dhammas their nature of arising, or he abides contemplating in dhammas their nature of vanishing, or he abides contemplating in dhammas their nature of both arising and vanishing. Or else mindfulness that ‘there are dhammas’ is simply established in him to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness. And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world. That is how a bhikkhu abides contemplating dhammas as dhammas in terms of the sense-bases.”
I have read very little about what kabat-zinn is all about but I gather that he does not claim that his kind of mindfulness will deliver the end of suffering. He seems to be making much more modest claims about how people might be helped by it.....and it seems to me that the modesty of his claims probably means that alot of people have achieved alot of what he claims they might achieve.....I guess.....don't know for sure....

I have read quite a bit of the suttas compared to what I have read about kabat-zinn and I gather that the minfulness it suggests is an integral part (or for many it can be an integral part) of the end of suffering......and it seems to me that the grandiosity of the claim means that probably almost noone (I haven't heard of any) have been able to achieve that claim.....I guess....don't know for sure.....

So, my question for EVERYONE here is: What is wrong with your mindfulness? It doesn't seem to be delivering the goods.....I guess....don't know for sure.......

What is wrong with aspirin? It won't cure cancer.....but then again neither will the vast majority of the experimental cancer drugs that doctors play with.
chownah

binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:38 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:09 pm
That's fine, but it doesn't answer my question. Why the effort to bash every approach to mindfulness which is not identical to one's own views?
Where am I bashing them??
Copy-paste.

I am, however, disappointed, because MBSR is presented as a cure that can help many, supposedly including me, but it doesn't help me, and it is this disappointment that I am expressing. In fact, I'm angry too, and a whole row of other feelings.

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:40 pm
I'm confused too-- what does this have to do with one's life being worth living? Do you want to go to a meditation class where they tell you your life isn't worth living? Why is that even a subject?
Because on the most basic level, one has to believe that one's life is worth living if one is to expend effort (and money) on improving or just furthering this life.

Once a person has reached the point where they wonder whether their own life is worth living, or whether they should end it -- to say it with Camus' words:
“There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer.”
The Myth of Sisyphus
Such a person will need more than MBSR and other feel-good psychologies can offer. And MBSR etc. should rightfully be criticized for their limitations.

binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:26 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:39 pm
So, my question for EVERYONE here is: What is wrong with your mindfulness? It doesn't seem to be delivering the goods.....I guess....don't know for sure.......

What is wrong with aspirin? It won't cure cancer.....but then again neither will the vast majority of the experimental cancer drugs that doctors play with.
You have a point.
I could be described as an unwilling Buddhist: someone who tries to stay in the world, pursuing worldly ways, despite having had almost nothing but dissatisfaction with them; the kind of person who resorts to Buddhism because everything else is too hard. This makes for a grumpy, grudgy, unwilling follower.

- - -
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:44 am
In the case of Kabat-Zinn, I've no idea if he'll teach you that your life is worth living, but to judge from his book Coming to our Senses he certainly thinks that his is.
Well, I'm a plebeian, JKZ won't stoop to my level to talk to me.
:woohoo:
TASTESCAPELast night at a local restaurant I ordered cilantro green curry halibut with jasmine rice.
And somehow, managed to ignore that that halibut probably died a painful death from suffocation and the jasmine rice contained traces of rat or mice excrement. And of course ignored the poor hungry Africans, the fishermen who risked their lives to catch halibut in the stormy northern waters, and so on.

It's telling how this kind of mindfulness is so sharply regulated (ever so judgmentally!), ignoring so much, and focusing only on some very specific pleasures.
I wonder if someone following JKZ's method could get a root canal and be non-judgmentally mindful of it, or have a broken leg adjusted without anaesthesia, mindfully. Or be mindful while being told he lost his job.
It seems an awful long way from bhāvanā on the banks of the Nerañjarā to fusion cuisine dining in Nantucket. I'm not sure if this is quite what the Buddha had in mind when he said that "satipaṭṭhāna is helpful everywhere."
Maybe this follower of the Buddha should, you know, follow the Buddha ...

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L.N.
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:05 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 am
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:19 am
The quotes appear to be about cultivating awareness of the sensation of taste. What is the problem with it?
That would depend on who the reader is. For a follower of Aristippus of Cyrene I shouldn't think there would be any problem at all with it. The whole book would serve as a splendid guide on how to maximize his enjoyment of the five cords of sense-pleasure.

On the other hand, a follower of the Buddha looking for a good guide to dhammānupassanā may find that a few things of vital importance have been omitted.
Bhante,

Where do you discern a teaching of covetousness in the snippet which you provided by Kabat-Zinn?

Your concern appears to be that the snippet you provided omits a few things of vital importance. There are at least two reasons for this, as follows: (1) you have selected a snippet which omits those things; and (2) Kabat-Zinn's approach constitutes a "Modern Interpretation," which I believe is why this Topic is located here. Following is an additional snippet which may shed some light: http://www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/JonKabat.html.

We may not agree with everything he says, but my understanding is that his approach and MBSR are clinically shown to have a beneficial effect. Please clarify: Do you assert that anyone who does not have a problem with Kabat-Zinn's approach is not "a follower of the Buddha," as you put it? Please clarify the significance of one's opinion regarding Kabat-Zinn with regard to a determination of whether or not one is a follower of the Buddha.

With respect.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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L.N.
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:07 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:38 pm
L.N. wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:09 pm
That's fine, but it doesn't answer my question. Why the effort to bash every approach to mindfulness which is not identical to one's own views?
Where am I bashing them??
Maybe your intention is not to bash them. Apologies if I misunderstood your intention.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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aflatun
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by aflatun » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:27 pm

I personally find the kind of immersion in ones sensate experience that secular mindfulness teachers advocate pretty useful. These "cues" when taken out of context might seem to be advocating a kind of mindless hedonism but in practice (for me) the result is quite the opposite. You can find similar "cues" in Chan literature for example, where the purpose is far more explicitly "buddhist." (I concede that MBSR, etc fall short of "explicitly Buddhist" but I nevertheless think they are valuable tools)

Even ignoring all of that, I think its far better for someone to say, cultivate a sense of joy, contentment and presence while eating a spoonful of food as opposed to mindlessly shoving platefuls down their throat while thinking about five other hedonic pursuits they would like to get into later, worrying about all the work left for the day, or other random narratives that are blatantly unskillful and useless. Of course it would be best to eat that spoonful while cultivating a sense of joy, contentment and presence AND, for example, contemplating the dependence of "their experience" on that food and the body-subject to destruction-it nourishes, i.e. keeping their peripheral vision on conditionality at all times.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:41 pm

aflatun wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:27 pm
Even ignoring all of that, I think its far better for someone to say, cultivate a sense of joy, contentment and presence while eating a spoonful of food as opposed to mindlessly shoving platefuls down their throat while thinking about five other hedonic pursuits they would like to get into later, worrying about all the work left for the day, or other random narratives that are blatantly unskillful and useless.
That then is for people who operate within such a dichotomy. Not everyone is like that, though.

I once had a strange experience where I felt detached from the taste of food while eating (I didn't consciously try to make that happen, it just happened). Since then, I can't get back the enjoyment of eating, the sense of detachment has remained. It's only if I consciously try to distract myself and partially zone out that I can (sort of) enjoy eating.

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aflatun
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by aflatun » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:46 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:41 pm

That then is for people who operate within such a dichotomy. Not everyone is like that, though.
Of course not, which is way I gave an alternative "better" example :). There are many possibilities here.
I once had a strange experience where I felt detached from the taste of food while eating (I didn't consciously try to make that happen, it just happened). Since then, I can't get back the enjoyment of eating, the sense of detachment has remained. It's only if I consciously try to distract myself and partially zone out that I can (sort of) enjoy eating.
Does this detachment bring you happiness or wisdom?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:49 pm

aflatun wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:46 pm
Does this detachment bring you happiness or wisdom?
I feel miserable about it. I wish I could just be like others and that I could actually enjoy food.

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aflatun
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by aflatun » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:54 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:49 pm
aflatun wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:46 pm
Does this detachment bring you happiness or wisdom?
I feel miserable about it. I wish I could just be like others and that I could actually enjoy food.
I'm sorry dudette :(

I can't comment on your state of mind, but when I get into that kind of zone (assuming I'm understanding you) its generally a sign that something has gone wrong, e.g. aversion and dissociation.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

Saengnapha
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:13 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:52 pm
binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:28 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:25 pm
It seems like a win-win situation.
If you ignore all those who weren't helped by MBSR.
That's being unfair, I think. To be fair, we should also ignore all those who weren't helped by Jungian analysis, primal scream therapy, Christian Science, reiki, laying on of hands, etc, etc.
Really, if a course of action in anything to do with mental health offers a reasonable chance that it will be beneficial and a low chance that it will be harmful, that's about the best we can expect.

:namaste:
Kim
I particularly like Ven. Punnaji's description of the purpose of 'mindfulness'. Loosely paraphrased it is to help abnormal people to normalize their life, and help normal people to the super-normal life. To me, this is an inclusive view that covers the whole of humanity and the stages of development. For those practicing mindfulness at the mundane level of Buddhism, the change to surpramundane is enormous. The same can be said of the abnormal person who normalizes their life with mindfulness practice, the change can seem enormous.

So to argue that secular mindfulness is out of touch with Buddhist teaching is also valid for those Buddhists who practice mundane Buddhism. In other words, 99% don't know what the Buddha has really taught, both non-Buddhists and Buddhists.

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L.N.
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:52 am

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:05 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 am
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:19 am
The quotes appear to be about cultivating awareness of the sensation of taste. What is the problem with it?
That would depend on who the reader is. For a follower of Aristippus of Cyrene I shouldn't think there would be any problem at all with it. The whole book would serve as a splendid guide on how to maximize his enjoyment of the five cords of sense-pleasure.

On the other hand, a follower of the Buddha looking for a good guide to dhammānupassanā may find that a few things of vital importance have been omitted.
Bhante,

Where do you discern a teaching of covetousness in the snippet which you provided by Kabat-Zinn?

Your concern appears to be that the snippet you provided omits a few things of vital importance. There are at least two reasons for this, as follows: (1) you have selected a snippet which omits those things; and (2) Kabat-Zinn's approach constitutes a "Modern Interpretation," which I believe is why this Topic is located here. Following is an additional snippet which may shed some light: http://www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/JonKabat.html.

We may not agree with everything he says, but my understanding is that his approach and MBSR are clinically shown to have a beneficial effect. Please clarify: Do you assert that anyone who does not have a problem with Kabat-Zinn's approach is not "a follower of the Buddha," as you put it? Please clarify the significance of one's opinion regarding Kabat-Zinn with regard to a determination of whether or not one is a follower of the Buddha.

With respect.
Bhante,

If you care to do so, I would appreciate your explanation for how you believe one's opinion regarding Kabat-Zinn plays a role in a determination of whether one is a follower of the Buddha. You have implied here that I and others apparently are not followers of the Buddha, by virtue of the fact that we do not have a problem with Kabat-Zinn's modern interpretation. Your kind elucidation is requested, as you have called into question whether certain Members here are followers of the Buddha.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:20 am

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:52 am
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:05 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 am


That would depend on who the reader is. For a follower of Aristippus of Cyrene I shouldn't think there would be any problem at all with it. The whole book would serve as a splendid guide on how to maximize his enjoyment of the five cords of sense-pleasure.

On the other hand, a follower of the Buddha looking for a good guide to dhammānupassanā may find that a few things of vital importance have been omitted.
Bhante,

Where do you discern a teaching of covetousness in the snippet which you provided by Kabat-Zinn?

Your concern appears to be that the snippet you provided omits a few things of vital importance. There are at least two reasons for this, as follows: (1) you have selected a snippet which omits those things; and (2) Kabat-Zinn's approach constitutes a "Modern Interpretation," which I believe is why this Topic is located here. Following is an additional snippet which may shed some light: http://www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/JonKabat.html.

We may not agree with everything he says, but my understanding is that his approach and MBSR are clinically shown to have a beneficial effect. Please clarify: Do you assert that anyone who does not have a problem with Kabat-Zinn's approach is not "a follower of the Buddha," as you put it? Please clarify the significance of one's opinion regarding Kabat-Zinn with regard to a determination of whether or not one is a follower of the Buddha.

With respect.
Bhante,

If you care to do so, I would appreciate your explanation for how you believe one's opinion regarding Kabat-Zinn plays a role in a determination of whether one is a follower of the Buddha. You have implied here that I and others apparently are not followers of the Buddha, by virtue of the fact that we do not have a problem with Kabat-Zinn's modern interpretation. Your kind elucidation is requested, as you have called into question whether certain Members here are followers of the Buddha.
I understood our resident bhante to be referring to abstract Buddhists.

Cultivating sati on taste, for the purpose of discerning the taste of one's curry the better to enjoy it =/= Buddhism:
Sallatha Sutta wrote: Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare.
Ergo, a "true" Buddhist is not in the game for a "life worth living", full of delicious curry.


However, whatever (if anything) is wrong with JKZ's approach, I very much appreciate his attempts to integrate (what I think of as) Dhamma practice with life.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:52 am
If you care to do so, I would appreciate your explanation for how you believe one's opinion regarding Kabat-Zinn plays a role in a determination of whether one is a follower of the Buddha.
It has traditionally been held that refuge-going is what determines this, not one’s opinion about this or that outside teacher.
L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:52 am
You have implied here that I and others apparently are not followers of the Buddha, by virtue of the fact that we do not have a problem with Kabat-Zinn's modern interpretation.
I don’t think that and I haven’t implied that.

I regard religious affiliation as a matter of self-definition and would never presume to tell a self-described Buddhist that she isn’t one. If she happens to like Kabat-Zinn’s books then I’d regard her as a Buddhist with lousy literary taste, not a non-Buddhist. I would just hope that she would sooner or later move on to more reliable sources of Dhamma.

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L.N.
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:28 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I don’t think that and I haven’t implied that.
I don't think that you haven't implied it either. You did here:
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 am
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:19 am
The quotes appear to be about cultivating awareness of the sensation of taste. What is the problem with it?
That would depend on who the reader is. For a follower of Aristippus of Cyrene I shouldn't think there would be any problem at all with it. The whole book would serve as a splendid guide on how to maximize his enjoyment of the five cords of sense-pleasure.

On the other hand, a follower of the Buddha looking for a good guide to dhammānupassanā may find that a few things of vital importance have been omitted.
Which implies that one who does not have a problem with Kabat-Zinn's modern interpretation is not a follower of the Buddha. Perhaps this is not what you meant to imply.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:16 pm

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:28 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I don’t think that and I haven’t implied that.
I don't think that you haven't implied it either. You did here:
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:57 am
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:19 am
The quotes appear to be about cultivating awareness of the sensation of taste. What is the problem with it?
That would depend on who the reader is. For a follower of Aristippus of Cyrene I shouldn't think there would be any problem at all with it. The whole book would serve as a splendid guide on how to maximize his enjoyment of the five cords of sense-pleasure.

On the other hand, a follower of the Buddha looking for a good guide to dhammānupassanā may find that a few things of vital importance have been omitted.
Which implies that one who does not have a problem with Kabat-Zinn's modern interpretation is not a follower of the Buddha. Perhaps this is not what you meant to imply.
There are more options than just
either
"Being a follower of the Buddha and having a problem with JKZ"
or
"Not having a problem with JKZ and not being a follower of the Buddha".

There's also "Being a follower of the Buddha and not having a problem with JKZ" (which also doesn't necessarily imply that one agrees with JKZ or appreciates his work).

(Ideally, a follower of the Buddha probably doesn't have a problem with anything anyway.)

binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:18 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:13 am
I particularly like Ven. Punnaji's description of the purpose of 'mindfulness'. Loosely paraphrased it is to help abnormal people to normalize their life, and help normal people to the super-normal life. To me, this is an inclusive view that covers the whole of humanity and the stages of development. For those practicing mindfulness at the mundane level of Buddhism, the change to surpramundane is enormous. The same can be said of the abnormal person who normalizes their life with mindfulness practice, the change can seem enormous.
What is meant by "normal" here?
As in what Western psychology considers "normal"?

binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:26 pm

aflatun wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:54 pm
I can't comment on your state of mind, but when I get into that kind of zone (assuming I'm understanding you) its generally a sign that something has gone wrong, e.g. aversion and dissociation.
I don't want to overstate things, but with food, I seem to have defaultet to a sense of "This is what this taste is like", but without any drama or excitement to it. And it's this lack of drama and excitement that make such a difference and which I resent. There are all these mindfulness folks, and celebrity chefs, and psychologists who talk about enjoying food etc. -- and I can't relate to them or keep up with them. It's this not-belonging that gets to me, not the lack of enjoyment in food. (Oddly enough, not enjoying food doesn't seem distressing per se at all.)

Saengnapha
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:19 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:18 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:13 am
I particularly like Ven. Punnaji's description of the purpose of 'mindfulness'. Loosely paraphrased it is to help abnormal people to normalize their life, and help normal people to the super-normal life. To me, this is an inclusive view that covers the whole of humanity and the stages of development. For those practicing mindfulness at the mundane level of Buddhism, the change to surpramundane is enormous. The same can be said of the abnormal person who normalizes their life with mindfulness practice, the change can seem enormous.
What is meant by "normal" here?
As in what Western psychology considers "normal"?
My definition is 'not neurotic'. If you ask me what does that mean, I will tell you it is the ability to live sanely without creating imaginary problems. Anything further than that is already someone who is ready to hear deeper teachings like the Buddha's. Without the behavioral change to a non-neurotic life, there is no chance to understand teachings of profound significance.

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