Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

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binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular »

aflatun wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:57 pmI don't mean to be harsh, but anhedonia is neither dispassion nor insight
And I have begun addressing this at least by starting these discussions here:

Should mentally troubled people stay away from Buddhism?
Is hardship an invalid source of / conduit to insight?
Treating samvega with Western psychotherapy?

And it's not anhedonia; it's about experiencing wordly pleasures as pleasurable, but not seeing them worth of the strife necessary to obtain them; or at least not seeing them as pleasurable enough to devote one's life to them.

For example, I once calculated how much I need to work in order to earn enough to be able to go to the movies. Once I was done with the calculation, I was overcome with a sense "This isn't worth it." When the pleasures don't outweigh the strife of the work needed to earn for those pleasures, those pleasures aren't worth the effort anymore.

I'm sure that for people who don't have all that much trouble to earn enough for a materially comfortable life, the pursuit of worldly pleasures looks vastly different than for someone who despite backbreaking work barely manages to make ends meet, while living in poverty.

Modern psychology is written by and for the (upper) middle class. I'd like to see those people degraded to working hard labor in factories for pennies and living without electricity. I wonder how much they would enjoy their lives then! I wonder if they would still accuse of mental illness those who, living in those poor circumstances, aren't eager to pursue worldly pleasures.

There is this odd idea that a person is or should be willing to invest any amount of work to earn even for the smallest pleasures. But I don't think it works like that. At some point, it seems more feasible to die than to scrape by.
The doctor's assessment in the above example is not entirely off the mark (especially if we ditch the pills), at least in some cases. As I've said to you before (I think) I don't believe the existential angst of the philosophers has much to do with what the Buddha was talking about. I know some people see them as the same, but I don't.
I agree, and I've been trying to identify the difference for quite some time now.
To begin with, I think that if my insight into the unsatisfactoriness of worldly pursuits would be Buddhist, in line with the Dhamma, I wouldn't be so miserable about that insight, or Buddhism.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular »

mal4mac wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:32 pmWell aren't these pleasures "good for the moment"? Isn't that enough?
No.
They're like that:
Image
But you haven't plumbed the depths of pessimism and existential angst here. A really pessimistic person might think,"These small 'pleasures', food, and drink, and parties, and relationships, and work," actually lead to horrors like alcoholism, unrequited love, divorce, bullying bosses and endless tedium."

Clearly, there are levels of pessimism.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
chownah
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by chownah »

Yep, it's all dukkha isn't it.
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aflatun
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

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binocular wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:25 am

And it's not anhedonia; it's about experiencing wordly pleasures as pleasurable, but not seeing them worth of the strife necessary to obtain them; or at least not seeing them as pleasurable enough to devote one's life to them.
(my emphasis)

Hopefully you can understand why I'm now confused and a bit concerned that you're not being honest with yourself?
I once had a strange experience where I felt detached from the taste of food while eating (I didn't consciously try to make that happen, it just happened). Since then, I can't get back the enjoyment of eating, the sense of detachment has remained. It's only if I consciously try to distract myself and partially zone out that I can (sort of) enjoy eating
I feel miserable about it. I wish I could just be like others and that I could actually enjoy food.
(my emphasis)

I'm not trying to force your experiences into a psychological bin, and I'm certainly not trying to dump on you. But when you start talking like this I recognize (I think) despair and unhappiness and I want you to pull out of this. :(
I'm sure that for people who don't have all that much trouble to earn enough for a materially comfortable life, the pursuit of worldly pleasures looks vastly different than for someone who despite backbreaking work barely manages to make ends meet, while living in poverty.

Modern psychology is written by and for the (upper) middle class. I'd like to see those people degraded to working hard labor in factories for pennies and living without electricity. I wonder how much they would enjoy their lives then! I wonder if they would still accuse of mental illness those who, living in those poor circumstances, aren't eager to pursue worldly pleasures.

There is this odd idea that a person is or should be willing to invest any amount of work to earn even for the smallest pleasures. But I don't think it works like that. At some point, it seems more feasible to die than to scrape by.
If you're saying that those are the conditions you find yourself in then you're right I can't pretend to speak about this, as I am not in those conditions. But I've known and worked with relatively poor people and they seem to be as hedonic in their drives as anyone else. Am I missing something?
I agree, and I've been trying to identify the difference for quite some time now.
To begin with, I think that if my insight into the unsatisfactoriness of worldly pursuits would be Buddhist, in line with the Dhamma, I wouldn't be so miserable about that insight, or Buddhism.
I think 'valid' insights can bring with them some pain, but as I understand it, the general trajectory should be towards deeper and less perturbable happiness. And when considering what's pleasurable, the Buddha seems to advise letting go of A in favor of B. Then letting go of B in favor of C. Etc. It's always a superior pleasure replacing an inferior one. A superior happiness replacing an inferior one.

The "world denying" material in the Buddhist tradition-in any spiritual tradition-has to be taken in context. Unfortunately when intelligent and well read people are in the grips of despair it can make excellent material for reinforcing and rationalizing despair, denial, harmful patterns of thought, aversion, social issues, etc. I'm not directing that at you necessarily, I'm speaking based on my past mistakes. All the 'reflection on dhamma' can just become a mask for depressive and anxious rumination, papanca, etc.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
binocular
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by binocular »

aflatun wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:08 pm
binocular wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:25 am And it's not anhedonia; it's about experiencing wordly pleasures as pleasurable, but not seeing them worth of the strife necessary to obtain them; or at least not seeing them as pleasurable enough to devote one's life to them.
(my emphasis)

Hopefully you can understand why I'm now confused and a bit concerned that you're not being honest with yourself?
Note the "but" afterwards. It's about having an attitude of, "Yeah, this tastes nice, so what?"
Normally, when people enjoy food (or anything else for that matter), they seem to be totally immersed in that enjoyment, overcome by it. And it's this feeling overcome, immersed in enjoyment that I don't have. Instead, I have that, "Yeah, that's nice, so what?" This is the detachment I'm talking about.

(Besides, the matter is a bit more complex as it depends on what school of psychology/psychotherapy one comes from. Of the three big Viennese schools of psychotherapy, only Freud emphasises the will to pleasure as man's essential driving force, in contrast to Adler's will to power, and Frankl's will to meaning.)
I'm not trying to force your experiences into a psychological bin, and I'm certainly not trying to dump on you. But when you start talking like this I recognize (I think) despair and unhappiness and I want you to pull out of this.
I apologize. I, too, wish I wouldn't be so unhappy.
If you're saying that those are the conditions you find yourself in then you're right I can't pretend to speak about this, as I am not in those conditions. But I've known and worked with relatively poor people and they seem to be as hedonic in their drives as anyone else. Am I missing something?
I guess some are, some aren't. Then again, how many people sit down and calculate how much they need to work to earn enough to go to the movies or buy/do some other thing they like? Not many, I suppose.
The "world denying" material in the Buddhist tradition-in any spiritual tradition-has to be taken in context. Unfortunately when intelligent and well read people are in the grips of despair it can make excellent material for reinforcing and rationalizing despair, denial, harmful patterns of thought, aversion, social issues, etc. I'm not directing that at you necessarily, I'm speaking based on my past mistakes. All the 'reflection on dhamma' can just become a mask for depressive and anxious rumination, papanca, etc.
Of course.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
chownah
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by chownah »

binocular wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:25 am When the pleasures don't outweigh the strife of the work needed to earn for those pleasures, those pleasures aren't worth the effort anymore.
What work do you do that is so ridden with strife?
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aflatun
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

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robertk wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:03 am
Kim OHara wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:43 pm
binocular wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:52 pm In my experience, when I try to let in the seen be only the seen etc., I end up in a kind of anomic, zoned-out state, like a blissed-out zombie. That can't be right!
It isn't right, but it's a fairly common 'wrong turning' for people to take. I'm not sure if I can explain the difference in any understandable way, though.


Similarly, when we are trying to simply observe the seen, we can slip into trying to actively shut down our thoughts and judgements, rather than letting them float away.



:namaste:
Kim
Exactly right. :anjali:

All of that *trying* to observe etc is based around a subtle belief that there is someone who can make things occur.
How did Robert the Abhidhammika become so Zen? :tongue: :heart:

Then, the monk asked: "I find it impossible to control all my passions and delusions. What should I do? It's simply proved too much for me, and I wish to receive your instruction."

The Master replied: "Your idea of wanting to control your passions and delusions is itself delusion, changing the Buddha Mind for delusion! Delusions don't have any actual substance when they arise. In fact, they're nothing but shadow figures, things you've seen and heard that pop up sporadically in response to circumstances."
Bankei Zen, Trans Haskel, pg. 83
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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robertk
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by robertk »

aflatun wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:07 pm
robertk wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:03 am
Exactly right. :anjali:

All of that *trying* to observe etc is based around a subtle belief that there is someone who can make things occur.
How did Robert the Abhidhammika become so Zen? :tongue: :heart:

Then, the monk asked: "I find it impossible to control all my passions and delusions. What should I do? It's simply proved too much for me, and I wish to receive your instruction."

The Master replied: "Your idea of wanting to control your passions and delusions is itself delusion, changing the Buddha Mind for delusion! Delusions don't have any actual substance when they arise. In fact, they're nothing but shadow figures, things you've seen and heard that pop up sporadically in response to circumstances."
Bankei Zen, Trans Haskel, pg. 83
Thanks for that quote!
The right way is the right way, whoever says it. ;)
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aflatun
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Re: Master of mindfulness, Jon Kabat-Zinn

Post by aflatun »

robertk wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:39 pm
Thanks for that quote!
My pleasure!

robertk wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:39 pm
The right way is the right way, whoever says it. ;)
I agree 100% :thumbsup:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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