Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
Post Reply
ToVincent
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by ToVincent » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:45 am

I have come up with a cheatsheet for the four establishment of mindfulness, in Ānāpānasati.
Short read. Much ado.

What's your opinion?


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Concentration by mindfulness of breathing - Ānāpāna_sati_samādhi
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Samādhi: To direct (pro-actively) the citta, towards constant, right homogeneity", (& towards the internal).

__________________


BODY
------

- Discerning breathing (I/O) long or short.

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to know the particulars of, (an accurate knowledge of - the feel of) the entire body (breath & body) - [up to here, there is no "feeling" of delight - just the knowledge of the breath & the body].

- Training breathing (I/O), calming bodily synergy (kāya-saṅkhāra).


FEELING
---------

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to feel delight (pīti).

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to feel pleasure (sukha). [sukha is less "carnal" than pīti].

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to know the particulars of the mental synergy - [viz. experiencing the working together, and outcome of 1. the feeling (vedanā) - with - 2. the inquiry (and assumptions) about that feeling (sañña)].

- Training breathing (I/O), calming mental synergy (citta-saṅkhāra). [calming the feeling & the inquiry and assumptions about that feeling - restraining the indriya - vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses (āyatanāni) > aka, paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā - It is almost the end of the "Mine".].



MIND (CITTA)
--------------

[Here, we enter the domain of the Citta that has been calmed (through samatha). Citta is not really related to the world of forms - if only, when it is bound with mano (not liberated) - We are here, almost at the point of liberation of citta (cetovimutti); (liberation from sensual pleasure - liberation from forms) - liberation from the "mine"].

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to know the particulars of the Citta. [It is this above Citta, made of calmed feeling & "perception" (inquiry and assumption), that one trains to experience].

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to gladden (abhippamodaya) that Citta.

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to direct the citta, towards constant, right homogeneity (Samāda) - [Here, we are aiming at the 5th Jhana >> nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā (not striving with the mind (mano) to perceptions of manifoldness (lit. (what is) differently than one) - Just one calm glad feeling and perception].

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to release the Citta - [vi+muñcati: release (apart-vi) - the end of the "Mine" - release from the external].

Note: Here, to have a measureless Citta, one must get also rid of the "I". For one is bounded by the "I" - confined in the limit of his ego.

PHENOMENA (DHAMMA)
-----------------------

[Here, we enter the domain of vipassanā - the abandonment of the "I", (of the "scent" (SN 22.89))].

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to contemplate the "not-one's ownness" (the foreign nature) of the phenomena. - [Here anicca has the original meaning of "not-inwardly" (outwardly-foreign). By extention, the meaning of "a-nicca" has become "impermanent" - and the foreign nature of the phenomena, (the combinations from form, feeling, perception, synergy and consciousness,) is directly related to the externality of the phenomena].

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to contemplate dispassion (virāga).

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to contemplate cessation (nirodha).

- Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to contemplate relinquishment (Paṭinissagga).
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18586
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:20 am

Greetings ToVincent,
ToVincent wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:45 am
Samādhi: To direct (pro-actively) the citta, towards constant, right homogeneity", (& towards the internal).
I disagree with the goal of "towards the internal"... here's a couple of extracts from Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons that explain why.
The discrimination between an 'internal' and an 'external' is the outcome of the inability to penetrate name-and-form, to see through it. There is an apparent duality: I, as one who sees, and name-and-form, as the objects seen. Between them there is a dichotomy as internal and external. It is on this very dichotomy that the six sense-bases are 'based'. Feeling and all the rest of it come on top of those six sense-bases. Craving and grasping follow suit, as a result of which those dogmatists get caught up in the vicious cycle of dependent arising and keep running round in saṃsāra as the Buddha has declared...

In fact the purpose of cravings, conceits and views is to reinforce the distinction between an internal and an external. Already when one says 'this is mine', one discriminates between the 'this' and 'I', taking them to be separate realities. 'This am I' and 'this is my self' betray the same tacit assumption.
Just as by looking at a mirror one may like or dislike the image appearing on it, these three points of view give rise to various pervert notions. All this because of the perpetuation of the distinction between an internal and an external, which is the situation with the ordinary worldling.
Since cravings, conceits and views thus reinforce the dichotomy between an internal and an external, the Buddha has upheld this principle underlying the meditation on the four elements, to resolve this conflict.
There is more said, but what is quoted above is sufficient for now.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by Pseudobabble » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:40 am

ToVincent wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:45 am
...

As always, ToVincent, this is interesting and illuminating. Saved.

As an aside - I'm not sure if you meant 'idio-syncratic'...
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5165
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:48 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:20 am
I disagree with the goal of "towards the internal"... here's a couple of extracts from Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons that explain why.
Since cravings, conceits and views thus reinforce the dichotomy between an internal and an external, the Buddha has upheld this principle underlying the meditation on the four elements, to resolve this conflict.
Curious then that a sutta describing a contemplation on the four elements includes the distinction between internal and external.

"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external....Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Here the internal/external distinction itself doesn't seem to be the problem, the point is to see the element "as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.'"
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

ToVincent
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by ToVincent » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:25 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:Saved
Idiotic views saved?
That might be intelligence - or not.
Might prevent memory leaks - or not.

Who knows what will be saved?
What counts is, who will be "saved" (liberated)?


Metta

_________
retrofuturist wrote:...
Hi retrofuturist,

As you might have noticed in our previous discussions, I have always found Nanananda a bit engaged in the Upaniṣhadic creed of a unitary "self"; comprised of the external and the internal. For the latter is exactly what the "view of a self" is all about.
The middle Brāhmaṇa and late Upaniṣadic creed is just about that - viz., blending the external & the internal, in a universal one.
And that is just what the Buddha battled against.

I have already talked lengthily about transcendence in Buddhism; and I have even made a special note about it lately - https://justpaste.it/1c78w
To summarize the gist of what transcendence is in echt Buddhism; I would say that it is the abandonment of one of the factor of the dichotomy, to reach the second factor, to which one turns towards.
This is particularly obvious in the higher jhanas (samatikkama); but it also shows, less obviously, in every step of the process of liberation in the lower spheres.

The internal (the second factor,) is just what one turns towards, when one has abandoned the external (the first factor).
And this first process is called viveka (seclusion). Please, read this important note: https://justpaste.it/17880

Now, please turn (again) to this visual aid: https://justpaste.it/1695d
We will discuss it more in details below.

I will show you what the process of seclusion means. And also what the process of ānāpānasati does really involve.
For the latter does not even involve the process of seclusion anymore. But instead, transcending that seclusion.

So, please turn to this visual aid - https://justpaste.it/1ckpw -
It deals with the external and the internal (in details).

The external shows how one is involved with the external khandhas of nāmarūpa nidāna. As well as with their corresponding external fields of sensory experience.
Seclusion (viveka), is about getting rid of this influence, through the restraint of the indriyani - so that the experience might not be sensorial anymore.

And seclusion is about entrenching oneself in the internal only. The body, the breath, etc.

The internal, is the process of transcending that seclusion also; (of which ānāpāna_sati_samādhi training is a part). That is to say, going from that breath to the liberated citta - and even further; to the recognition of the total foreign nature of that internal (and external).

In other words, to perform ānāpānasati, you have to already have abandoned the kama loka involved with the world of guitars & sounds, perfumes ans smells, etc.
What you are involved in, with ānāpānasati, is the internal only. Yet an internal still made of an "external" that is not "ours".
You are not dealing between the external and internal āyatanāni anymore; but between the internal āyatanāni and the external khandhas of nāmarūpa. You are dealing with the rūpa loka. The world of your own forms*. The realm of the body - the realm of the breath.

Remember the process?
Abandoning the kama loka >> abandoning the rūpa loka >> abandoning the arūpa loka.
This is the course of transcendence.

I hope you will understand what I mean.

* Deviant "buddhism" plays with these forms - and remains both in the kama & rūpa lokā. Echt Buddhism understands these "internal forms", and transcends them.

Metta
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

DooDoot
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:40 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:45 am
What's your opinion?

- Discerning breathing (I/O) long or short.
My opinion is the part included above, namely, "Discerning breathing (I/O) long or short", is useful & accurate; even though it offers nothing new or "cheating".

As for the "training with desire" suggested, this seems to be the opposite of what is instructed in the Anapanasati Sutta, which seems to say every "training" stage is done with the fading ("viraga") & cessation ("nirodha") of desire, as follows:
Idha bhikkhu sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃvossagga.

There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on (by means of) seclusion, dependent on dispassion (viraga), dependent on cessation (nirodha), resulting (maturing) in relinquishment (vossagga).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5165
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:17 am

I've studied a number of commentaries on the four tetrads of Anapanasati, the best one IMO is "Mindfulness with breathing" by Bhikkhu Buddhadasa.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5165
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:55 am

ToVincent wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:25 pm
And seclusion is about entrenching oneself in the internal only. The body, the breath, etc.
Sure, but it is a temporary seclusion, and that is the case for all sitting meditation. In any case, the culmination of the practice is insight in the fourth tetrad.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

ToVincent
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by ToVincent » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:22 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
ToVincent wrote:And seclusion is about entrenching oneself in the internal only. The body, the breath, etc.
Sure, but it is a temporary seclusion, and that is the case for all sitting meditation. In any case, the culmination of the practice is insight in the fourth tetrad.
I don't know what you really mean by "temporary" - and what you mean by seclusion.
See my previous answer to retrofuturist on viveka (seclusion).
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=30434&sid=23c692d6 ... b9#p441577

Would someone that has experienced the delight (pīti) of I/O breath, be still attached to the external āyatanāni?
Would that be "temporary"?
Can vulgar sensual pleasures override pīti? - Or does pīti overrides earthy sensual pleasures?
Would experiencing a faithful and persistent contentment, be temporary?

And that is just about the first step - viz. the way to seclusion.

I would strongly advise you to see this visual aid - https://justpaste.it/1ckpw - (that, by the way, I have modified a bit, since my post to retrofuturist).

----

What do you mean by the "culmination of the practice is insight"?
That is so trite, so cliché, so commonplace - and so meaningless.

What is insight?
What is realizing "anicca" in the process of ānāpānasati?
What is the foreign nature of dhamma? - and what is the nature of dhamma?
Isn't the original location of dhamma foreign to us? - Isn't dhamma's nature impermanent (anicca)? - Doesn't that make it foreign (anicca) twofold for us?
How do we postulate that there is no "I"; and therefore, no-self from that - or not-self in that?

Developing the perceptions (inquiries and premises)
Of anicca, and anatta, and unattractiveness,
And displeasure with the whole world—
This is appropriate for an ascetic.
Bhāveyya ca aniccanti,
Anattasaññaṃ asubhasaññañca;
Lokamhi ca anabhiratiṃ,
Etaṃ samaṇassa patirūpaṃ.
Thag 10.7


-------------

There is no such thing as temporary and permanent cessation.
The day you discovered that Santa-claus did not exist, you "permanently" wiped out the idea of his existence from your mind. That did not prevent you to "temporarily" play Santa-claus with your kids.

The beauty of a bhikkhu is that, while having attained higher jhanas (for some), he still has to go for alm everyday (in the real world).
It is just "permanence" moving down to the "temporary".
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18586
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:44 pm

Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:48 pm
Curious then that a sutta describing a contemplation on the four elements includes the distinction between internal and external.

"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external....Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It is good you present sutta to demonstrate that the internal and external earth element (etc.) are simply earth element, thus the distinction between internal and external is a fabricated (sankhata) one, not to be taken seriously, and it saves me from needing to demonstrate this.
Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:48 pm
Here the internal/external distinction itself doesn't seem to be the problem, the point is to see the element "as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.'"
I disagree with the bolded section. The fabricated designation of "internal" serves only to make the "right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self" that you speak of more difficult.

After all, what is it internal to, if not to that which is falsely deemed to be mine, me, or my self? If you wish, do explain to us a demarcation point between internal and external whose nexus does not resort to that which is falsely deemed to be mine, me, or my self.
Nanananda, in Nibbana Sermons wrote:This particular thematic paragraph in the Satipaṭṭhānasutta is of paramount importance for insight meditation. Here, too, there is the mention of internal, ajjhatta, and external, bahiddhā. When one directs one's attention to one's own body and another's body separately, one might sometimes take these two concepts, internal and external, too seriously with a dogmatic attitude. One might think that there is actually something that could be called one's own or another's. But then the mode of attention next mentioned unifies the two, as internal-external, ajjhattabahiddhā, and presents them like the conjoined pair of bulls. And what does it signify? These two are not to be viewed as two extremes, they are related to each other.

Now let us go a little deeper into this interrelation. The farthest limit of the internal is the nearest limit of the external. The farthest limit of the external is the nearest limit of the internal. More strictly rendered, ajjhatta means inward and bahiddhā means outward. So here we have the duality of an inside and an outside. One might think that the word ajjhattika refers to whatever is organic. Nowadays many people take in artificial parts into their bodies. But once acquired, they too become internal. That is why, in this context ajjhattika has a deeper significance than its usual rendering as 'one's own'.

Whatever it may be, the farthest limit of the ajjhatta remains the nearest limit of the bahiddhā. Whatever portion one demarcates as one's own, just adjoining it and at its very gate is bahiddhā. And from the point of view ofbahiddhā, its farthest limit and at its periphery is ajjhatta. This is a conjoined pair. These two are interrelated. So the implication is that these two are not opposed to each other. That is why, by attending to them both together, asajjhattabahiddhā, that dogmatic involvement with a view is abandoned. Here we have an element of reconciliation, which prevents adherence to a view. This is what fosters the attitude of anissita, unattached.
Nanananda, in Nibbana Sermons wrote:Since cravings, conceits and views thus reinforce the dichotomy between an internal and an external, the Buddha has upheld this principle underlying the meditation on the four elements, to resolve this conflict.

The fact that with the resolution of this conflict between the internal and the external concerning the four elements the mind becomes emancipated is put across to us in the following verse in the Tālapuṭa Theragāthā.

Kadā nu kaṭṭhe ca tiṇe latā ca
khandhe ime 'haṃ amite ca dhamme
ajjhattikān' eva ca bāhirāni ca
samaṃ tuleyyaṃ, tad idaṃ kadā me?

This verse gives expression to Venerable Tālapuṭa Thera's aspiration to become an arahant. It says:

"When shall I weigh as equal all these
Limitless things both internal and external,
Twigs, grass, creepers and these aggregates,
O! when shall that be for me?"

It is at the stage of arahant-hood that the internal and the external appear alike. That is precisely why the Venerable Adhimutta Thera, whom we quoted earlier, uttered the lines: Tiṇakaṭṭhasamaṃ lokaṃ, yadā paññāya passati.

"When one sees through wisdom,
The world to be comparable to grass and twigs."

The comparison is between the internal world of the five aggregates, or this conscious body, and the inanimate objects outside.
And what is the resolution to the sankhata distinction between internal and external?
Nanananda, in Nibbana Sermons wrote:Generally, what is known as a vortex or a whirlpool, is a certain pervert, unusual or abnormal activity, which sustains a pretence of an individual existence in the great ocean with a drilling and churning as its centre. It is an aberration, functioning according to a duality, maintaining a notion of two things. As long as it exists, there is the dichotomy between a 'here' and a 'there', oneself and another. A vortex reflects a conflict between an 'internal' and an 'external' - a 'tangle within' and a 'tangle without'. The cessation of the vortex is the freedom from that duality. It is a solitude born of full integration.

We happened to discuss the meaning of the term kevalī in our last sermon. The cessation of a vortex is at once the resolution of the conflict between an internal and an external, of the tangle within and without. When a vortex ceases, all those conflicts subside and a state of peace prevails. What remains is the boundless great ocean, with no delimitations of a 'here' and a 'there'. As is the great ocean, so is the vortex now.
This suchness itself indicates the stoppage, the cessation or the subsidence of the vortex. There is no longer any possibility of pointing out a 'here' and a 'there' in the case of a vortex that has ceased. Its 'thusness' or 'suchness' amounts to an acceptance of the reality of the great ocean. That 'thus-gone' vortex, or the vortex that has now become 'such', is in every respect worthy of being called tathāgata.

The term tādī is also semantically related to this suchness. The tathāgata is sometimes referred to as tādī or tādiso, "such-like". The 'such-like' quality of the tathāgata is associated with his unshakeable deliverance of the mind. His mind remains unshaken before the eight worldly vicissitudes.
The purpose of me highlighting the internal/external dichotomy in this topic was to show how attachment to this distinction will not lead to the "solitude born of full integration", outlined above. The solitude is not achieved through a retreat into the internal, but through the dissolution of the fabricated distinction between the two.

I'm happy to discuss the internal/external dichotomy further, but best we do so in a new topic, since we've exhausted the extent to which this side-discussion could relate to ToVincent's anapanasati cheat-sheet.

UPDATE: That discussion is now here... Internal / External - significance and meaning . If anyone wishes to respond to this post, please do so at the linked topic. Thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

ToVincent
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by ToVincent » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:51 pm

This is an addendum.

Just an attempt to make a parallel between Ānāpānasati and Jhāna.
https://justpaste.it/1cmhg
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5165
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by Spiny Norman » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:26 am

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:22 pm
Would someone that has experienced the delight (pīti) of I/O breath, be still attached to the external āyatanāni?
Would that be "temporary"?
Can vulgar sensual pleasures override pīti? - Or does pīti overrides earthy sensual pleasures?
Would experiencing a faithful and persistent contentment, be temporary?
I have only experienced jhana on retreat, so it's difficult for me to comment. I'm sure that regular jhana would weaken the attachment to sensual pleasure, but I'm not convinced it would ever eradicate it - that is where insight comes in. So I think my point about temporary and permanent cessation is valid.

The more traditional Anapanasati commentaries I have read describe a progression through the jhanas, culminating in insight in the fourth tetrad. The more contemporary commentaries basically describe a satipatthana practice, using the breath as an "anchor".

There have been many discussions here about whether progression through the jhanas is "essential", and as I understand it, the simple answer is "no". The question is complicated by different views about what constitutes jhana.
Some bedtime reading: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=4597
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

ToVincent
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Idiot-syncratic Ānāpānasati cheatsheet.

Post by ToVincent » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:02 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:26 am
.... above
Why one has always to mix temporary and permanent, with eradication?
Isn't that a bit overdone?

I have stopped smoking permanently; that does not mean that, sometimes, I don't feel like having a cigarette.

------------

Also, I don't see what "essentiality" has to do with Jhāna here?

I am just trying to point to some similarities. Not just equating them.

Now, I am this type of person that believes that doing two things is better than one.
For instance - if I was a Protestant - I would not stop at fighting endlessly between the essentiality of work (deeds), vs. the essentiality of faith; I would just stupidly do both.
Same thing for Jhāna and whatever. I'll do both.
That should settle the "great jhāna debate" on its "essentiality " (as far as I am concerned).

Note: I have come up with what was said about Jhāna in parallel texts - https://justpaste.it/1avur (that restrict references to suttas that have no parallels) - as well as with a cheatsheet - https://justpaste.it/1b877
.
.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests