Avijja translated as "Insentience"

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:15 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:14 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am
Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
Does Ven Bunnaji have precedence in stating that the Buddha "has" avijja? I thought getting "rid" of avijja was central to the Buddha's path as usually taught.
From what I gather, Bhante P describes the cylce of DO as it occurs in non-Arahants & Buddhas.
Does that mean Buddhas & sentient beings but not Arahants, or a cycle of DO unique to Sammāsambuddhas?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:49 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:15 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:14 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am


Does Ven Bunnaji have precedence in stating that the Buddha "has" avijja? I thought getting "rid" of avijja was central to the Buddha's path as usually taught.
From what I gather, Bhante P describes the cylce of DO as it occurs in non-Arahants & Buddhas.
Does that mean Buddhas & sentient beings but not Arahants, or a cycle of DO unique to Sammāsambuddhas?
Sorry for the confusion. My faulty writing.
He describes DO in two ways. The way non-Ariyas experience it and the way Ariyas experience it which liberates them from birth and death cycle. The intellectual understanding of DO does not liberate and the cycle begins again.

James Tan
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by James Tan » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:27 pm

Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
Hi Garibb , I think we should put aside insentience .
Avijja is not knowing . Not " Unconscious " .
Avijja is not knowing the 4NT and how the sense organ relate to sense object , that give rise to
" self " & the rest .
Therefore , coming back to the DO , you don't have to attain nirodha samapatti in order to attain liberation ! That is IMO , corrupted teachings . If you refer back to sutta (maybe someone familiar with sutta can help) how many Buddha's disciples attained nirodha Samapatti that attained liberation .

The problem with scholars nowadays is , they still could not come to a conclusion what is the true meaning of the links , how all the links manifest .
The interpretation varies from each other .
:shrug:

dharmacorps
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:57 pm

It depends how ignorance is seen-- my understanding of Avijja is that it is not NOT knowing something, its not understanding the information correctly. That's ignorance from the Buddha's perspective. Maybe the term may be better put as "confusion"?

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:33 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:27 pm
Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
Hi Garibb , I think we should put aside insentience .
Avijja is not knowing . Not " Unconscious " .
Avijja is not knowing the 4NT and how the sense organ relate to sense object , that give rise to
" self " & the rest .
Therefore , coming back to the DO , you don't have to attain nirodha samapatti in order to attain liberation ! That is IMO , corrupted teachings . If you refer back to sutta (maybe someone familiar with sutta can help) how many Buddha's disciples attained nirodha Samapatti that attained liberation .

The problem with scholars nowadays is , they still could not come to a conclusion what is the true meaning of the links , how all the links manifest .
The interpretation varies from each other .
:shrug:
Bhante P has also referred to it as unconscious, but not knowing seems to be his preferred definition. It is the sphere before your birth and the world's presence. It is this condition that allows for formations to arise and hence, consciousness. Each condition present for the next link to appear in the 12 links of existence.

Nirodha Samapatti is not an attainment. It is a complete shutting down, a cessation of the process of perception. No mind. The Buddha awakened from this and was able to fully experience how the world, things, and self are created by direct experiencing DO, not through a mental process as you are trying to do by explaining this the way you are doing. Of course, I understand that you are trying to conceptualize all of this. This will not prove anything and is not even remotely connected to your own experience except through your own imagination at this point. This is why direct experience is the only to way to 'prove' anything, and you are only 'proving' it to yourself. No one can say what Nirodha Samapatti is, that is why scholars cannot translate this or why there are not more attempts to clarify what takes place. It is not part of their own experience and lies outside of the field of 'knowledge', which is existence. All those who have been liberated have transcended existence. How can this ever be stated in the right words?

Layt
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 2:27 pm

The chain Avijjā-Saṅkhāra-Viññāṇa is a reference to the vedic theory of the creation of the world.

Avijjā corresponds to the inability of ātman (the creator) to cognize (since it is alone at the beginning of the universe).
Saṅkhāra corresponds to its wish to cognize
Viññāṇa corresponds to it performing the act of cognition

We can find a parody of this process in the Theravāda : mahā Brahmā appears alone at the beginning of a new kappa and wishes to come out of his solitude, then other deva appear, mahā Brahmā thinks he created them, the other deva believe that he created them... thus mahā Brahmā becomes revered as a creator god.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 07, 2018 6:28 pm

thats a pretty bad translation in my opinion. pain is felt, whether or not you understand pain as it really is. if you feel pain and are untrained you will agonize
'vedanā comes from the same root', can someone back this up
well,
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