Avijja translated as "Insentience"

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pilgrim
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by pilgrim » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:44 pm

Ven Punnaji is a fan of old school psychology and his translations of stock Pali terms are generally impractical, ambiguous and can be misleading. For eg sanna is experience, vicikicca is cognitive dissonance and so on.

rohatsu
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by rohatsu » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:05 am

pilgrim wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:44 pm
Ven Punnaji is a fan of old school psychology and his translations of stock Pali terms are generally impractical, ambiguous and can be misleading. For eg sanna is experience, vicikicca is cognitive dissonance and so on.
That's how mistranslations occur:




Bhante P. is not only a "fan" of psychology, but also a very wise, old and experienced monk. How is that possible, that so many people - including monks - are still translating the word 'samadhi' as concentration ? Everyone who attained the 1st Jhana, should know what Samadhi is - by own experience.

Samadhi is a result, not the way to it.

If people doesn't experience the Samadhi, how can they know, what 'sanna' is ?

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robertk
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by robertk » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:58 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:37 pm
robertk wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:30 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 am


I think you've hit it on the head! This was described almost to the word by my friend U.G. Krishnamurti talking about his 'calamity' and trying to explain what had happened to him to his friends around him. Bhante used the term 'mindlessness'. All forms of consciousness (always associated with the senses/body)fall away. There is no knowledge or knowing. No Mind. The body cannot stay like this and when the 'metabolism' gets going again, paticcasamupadda is seen as it actually is. In this case, ignorance is not ignorance when there is no mind. For me, I'm very happy to hear Bhante's description of this as there are very few descriptions apart from UG's that are clear about this. Anyone interested in reading UG's description of this can find it in 'The Biology Of Enlightenment', by Mukunda Rao.
Both accounts seem way off the mark for describing insight at any level let alone the highest levels.
What both accounts describe seem like the end of insight and the true transcendental realization of mindlessness which operates in the supramundane fields. I would not presume to understand what this would be like, but I can tell you that I have never met anyone remotely like U.G.

What do you conceptualize as insight at the highest levels? Do you think thought/perception filters anything anymore?
of course perception, consciousness and all other khandas still function. The Bhante has a (very) unusual idea about enlightenment: really it is deep seeing into the nature of the world(the khandhas) not some sort of strange experience.
IMO

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:09 pm

robertk wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:58 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:37 pm
robertk wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:30 am


Both accounts seem way off the mark for describing insight at any level let alone the highest levels.
What both accounts describe seem like the end of insight and the true transcendental realization of mindlessness which operates in the supramundane fields. I would not presume to understand what this would be like, but I can tell you that I have never met anyone remotely like U.G.

What do you conceptualize as insight at the highest levels? Do you think thought/perception filters anything anymore?
of course perception, consciousness and all other khandas still function. The Bhante has a (very) unusual idea about enlightenment: really it is deep seeing into the nature of the world(the khandhas) not some sort of strange experience.
IMO
I'm not sure what you mean by 'strange experience'. Khandhas still function but no longer from the point of view of a center. The dream of existence has ended for such a one.

James Tan
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by James Tan » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:10 am

Greetings Garibb and friends ,

If I am not mistaken , bhante P's described when one attained to the cessation of perception feeling , you are not conscious , and coming out from the state , you start to see how previously one is ignorant of how our mind relate to sense objects , and as one clearly sees all the processes unfold , one finally piercing through it resulting in awakening . This is the reverse order of the paticcasamupadda , a realisation processes .
Not the defiled mind human beings sequence .

Best wishes .

Garrib
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Garrib » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm

Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am

Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
Does Ven Bunnaji have precedence in stating that the Buddha "has" avijja? I thought getting "rid" of avijja was central to the Buddha's path as usually taught.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Garrib
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Garrib » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:40 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am

Does Ven Bunnaji have precedence in stating that the Buddha "has" avijja? I thought getting "rid" of avijja was central to the Buddha's path as usually taught.
Yes, this is a little confusing to me. I assume I must be misunderstanding something...

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:03 am

Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
There is no way to understand this intellectually which is what we all try to do. In the simplest of terms, Bhante P translates avijja as a state of not knowing. If you don't know anything how can there be 'ignorance'. Is ignorance the opposite of knowing? Or is not knowing the opposite of knowing? I think there is a big difference here. Most people regard ignorance as something negative. It is a condition. It is pre-perception/cognition, pre subject/object. The organism is not aware of anything. This begins the cycle.

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:14 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am
Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
Does Ven Bunnaji have precedence in stating that the Buddha "has" avijja? I thought getting "rid" of avijja was central to the Buddha's path as usually taught.
From what I gather, Bhante P describes the cylce of DO as it occurs in non-Arahants & Buddhas. The transcending of this cycle does not have a repeat of the cycle of birth and death. Avijja, the condition of not knowing, is absent in the noble ones and is no longer a condition that appears. Things are then seen as they are, not through the filters of perception, etc. There is no longer a condition for birth and death at the dissolution of the body. No more becoming.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:15 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:14 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am
Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
Does Ven Bunnaji have precedence in stating that the Buddha "has" avijja? I thought getting "rid" of avijja was central to the Buddha's path as usually taught.
From what I gather, Bhante P describes the cylce of DO as it occurs in non-Arahants & Buddhas.
Does that mean Buddhas & sentient beings but not Arahants, or a cycle of DO unique to Sammāsambuddhas?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:49 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:15 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:14 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am


Does Ven Bunnaji have precedence in stating that the Buddha "has" avijja? I thought getting "rid" of avijja was central to the Buddha's path as usually taught.
From what I gather, Bhante P describes the cylce of DO as it occurs in non-Arahants & Buddhas.
Does that mean Buddhas & sentient beings but not Arahants, or a cycle of DO unique to Sammāsambuddhas?
Sorry for the confusion. My faulty writing.
He describes DO in two ways. The way non-Ariyas experience it and the way Ariyas experience it which liberates them from birth and death cycle. The intellectual understanding of DO does not liberate and the cycle begins again.

James Tan
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by James Tan » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:27 pm

Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
Hi Garibb , I think we should put aside insentience .
Avijja is not knowing . Not " Unconscious " .
Avijja is not knowing the 4NT and how the sense organ relate to sense object , that give rise to
" self " & the rest .
Therefore , coming back to the DO , you don't have to attain nirodha samapatti in order to attain liberation ! That is IMO , corrupted teachings . If you refer back to sutta (maybe someone familiar with sutta can help) how many Buddha's disciples attained nirodha Samapatti that attained liberation .

The problem with scholars nowadays is , they still could not come to a conclusion what is the true meaning of the links , how all the links manifest .
The interpretation varies from each other .
:shrug:

dharmacorps
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:57 pm

It depends how ignorance is seen-- my understanding of Avijja is that it is not NOT knowing something, its not understanding the information correctly. That's ignorance from the Buddha's perspective. Maybe the term may be better put as "confusion"?

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:33 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:27 pm
Garrib wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:44 pm
Thanks James,

What you write makes sense to me, but I am still confused about the translation of avijja as insentience...It sounds like 'insentience' (cessation of perception and feeling) is what stops DO?? But in DO, avijja is the cause for the arising of subsequent links.

Any thoughts?
Hi Garibb , I think we should put aside insentience .
Avijja is not knowing . Not " Unconscious " .
Avijja is not knowing the 4NT and how the sense organ relate to sense object , that give rise to
" self " & the rest .
Therefore , coming back to the DO , you don't have to attain nirodha samapatti in order to attain liberation ! That is IMO , corrupted teachings . If you refer back to sutta (maybe someone familiar with sutta can help) how many Buddha's disciples attained nirodha Samapatti that attained liberation .

The problem with scholars nowadays is , they still could not come to a conclusion what is the true meaning of the links , how all the links manifest .
The interpretation varies from each other .
:shrug:
Bhante P has also referred to it as unconscious, but not knowing seems to be his preferred definition. It is the sphere before your birth and the world's presence. It is this condition that allows for formations to arise and hence, consciousness. Each condition present for the next link to appear in the 12 links of existence.

Nirodha Samapatti is not an attainment. It is a complete shutting down, a cessation of the process of perception. No mind. The Buddha awakened from this and was able to fully experience how the world, things, and self are created by direct experiencing DO, not through a mental process as you are trying to do by explaining this the way you are doing. Of course, I understand that you are trying to conceptualize all of this. This will not prove anything and is not even remotely connected to your own experience except through your own imagination at this point. This is why direct experience is the only to way to 'prove' anything, and you are only 'proving' it to yourself. No one can say what Nirodha Samapatti is, that is why scholars cannot translate this or why there are not more attempts to clarify what takes place. It is not part of their own experience and lies outside of the field of 'knowledge', which is existence. All those who have been liberated have transcended existence. How can this ever be stated in the right words?

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