Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
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CedarTree
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by CedarTree » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:22 am

SDC wrote:
Garrib wrote:I dont actually know much about Freud other than the basic intro stuff you get as an undergraduate w a non psych major. But I do know that Freud's use of the term translated as 'unconscious' does not imply that there is literally no consciousness, but that there are impulses and motives and psychic movements which we are not conscious of...perhaps Bhante P means that avijja is the state of being unconscious of these things, whereas direct knowledge of the Four Noble Truths allows us to see what is actually going on in the recesses of the mind, what is driving us and keeping us wandering on...??
He stresses the use of the term "awakening" as if the puthujjana is in a state of sleep, so I think you're pretty close to the mark.
I am still curious about the points that made you drift away and what you developed as understanding as of today on those points and why :)


Practice, Practice, Practice


form
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by form » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:46 am

:group:
pilgrim wrote:Insentience would commonly mean being Unconscious or without Consciousness which would not make sense in the context of Buddhism. But it is quite common for Bhante to come out with new and quirky interpretations for common Buddhist terms.
Not surprising.

rohatsu
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by rohatsu » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 pm

Avijja in paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with knowledge or its absence (ignorance). It is simply the term used to describe the state, where all activities - emotional and perceptual - are absent. Previously Bhante was using the word 'unconsciousness' in order to describe avijja, but most people were baffled with this translation, so he decided to change it to 'insentience'.

As we know, the next link in paticcasamuppada is sankhara. There are four types of sankhara:

- Vaci sankhara - vitakka, vicara (conceptual thinking). Stops in 2nd Jhana.
- Kaya sankhara - in and out breathing. Stops in 4th Jhana.
- Citta sankhara - vedana and sanna (feeling and sensation). Stops after 4th Yatana i.e. neva sanna nasanna yatana (commonly named as the ' 4th arupa jhana' ). This is the point where sanna- vedayita-nirodha takes place.

After all above has stopped, only the most subtle sankhara is still present - the Ayu sankhara (metabolism). Mind ( as activity of the body) has ceased completely, hence 'insentience'.

The practitioner can stay in this state up to 7 days. If he doesn't come out from it, the body will die. But when he withdraw, awake from this state, he will see PATICCASAMUPPADA. That's the moment of awakening from real ignorance.

Garrib
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Garrib » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:26 am

rohatsu wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 pm
Avijja in paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with knowledge or its absence (ignorance). It is simply the term used to describe the state, where all activities - emotional and perceptual - are absent.
Thanks for posting, rohatsu.

This is the kind of answer I was hoping to get from someone who is familiar with Bhante P's teachings. I am not sure I understand, though - if Avijja means the state where all activities are absent, then it sounds very much like Nibbana (to me), or perhaps the attainment of cessation.
Obviously this cannot be the case, right? Neither Nibbana nor cessation can be the cause for the arising of sankharas, tanha, and ultimately suffering.

Please elaborate, if possible, on what this understanding of avijja actually entails and how it could lead to the arising of the other links in dependent origination.

Metta,

Brad

chownah
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:34 am

rohatsu wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 pm
Avijja in paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with knowledge or its absence (ignorance). It is simply the term used to describe the state, where all activities - emotional and perceptual - are absent. Previously Bhante was using the word 'unconsciousness' in order to describe avijja, but most people were baffled with this translation, so he decided to change it to 'insentience'.
Can you provide a reference which supports what you present here? The commonly accepted translation for avijja seems to be ignorance so what you say is markedly different from what is commonly accepted which is why I am asking for a reference or two.
chownah

rohatsu
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by rohatsu » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:38 am

Hi guys,
I suggest to visit a Youtube and listen to the Bhante's Dhamma talks. In most of the new talks there is a link below to the pdf file with notes - those are created by Bro Billy Tan. I would also suggest to listen to the Billy's Dhamma sharings, where he explains Bhante's Dhamma interpretation. You can also find Bhante's Pdf's typing 'punnaji pdf' in your browser.

I am attaching some useful links and an file below:

http://bhantepunnaji.com/pdf/110725_MYS ... JHANGA.pdf
http://bhantepunnaji.com/pdf/110718_MYS ... TASIES.pdf
http://bhantepunnaji.com/pdf/110711_MYS ... REALMS.pdf






Best
:buddha1:
Attachments
BP.20160505_ArupaSamadhi.pdf
(150.81 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

chownah
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:29 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:34 am
rohatsu wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 pm
Avijja in paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with knowledge or its absence (ignorance). It is simply the term used to describe the state, where all activities - emotional and perceptual - are absent. Previously Bhante was using the word 'unconsciousness' in order to describe avijja, but most people were baffled with this translation, so he decided to change it to 'insentience'.
Can you provide a reference which supports what you present here? The commonly accepted translation for avijja seems to be ignorance so what you say is markedly different from what is commonly accepted which is why I am asking for a reference or two.
chownah
Hi rohatsu,
did you see my post? Do you have a reference....or is this a new definition and something the bikkhu just cooked up?
chownah

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 am

rohatsu wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 pm
Avijja in paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with knowledge or its absence (ignorance). It is simply the term used to describe the state, where all activities - emotional and perceptual - are absent. Previously Bhante was using the word 'unconsciousness' in order to describe avijja, but most people were baffled with this translation, so he decided to change it to 'insentience'.

As we know, the next link in paticcasamuppada is sankhara. There are four types of sankhara:

- Vaci sankhara - vitakka, vicara (conceptual thinking). Stops in 2nd Jhana.
- Kaya sankhara - in and out breathing. Stops in 4th Jhana.
- Citta sankhara - vedana and sanna (feeling and sensation). Stops after 4th Yatana i.e. neva sanna nasanna yatana (commonly named as the ' 4th arupa jhana' ). This is the point where sanna- vedayita-nirodha takes place.

After all above has stopped, only the most subtle sankhara is still present - the Ayu sankhara (metabolism). Mind ( as activity of the body) has ceased completely, hence 'insentience'.

The practitioner can stay in this state up to 7 days. If he doesn't come out from it, the body will die. But when he withdraw, awake from this state, he will see PATICCASAMUPPADA. That's the moment of awakening from real ignorance.
I think you've hit it on the head! This was described almost to the word by my friend U.G. Krishnamurti talking about his 'calamity' and trying to explain what had happened to him to his friends around him. Bhante used the term 'mindlessness'. All forms of consciousness (always associated with the senses/body)fall away. There is no knowledge or knowing. No Mind. The body cannot stay like this and when the 'metabolism' gets going again, paticcasamupadda is seen as it actually is. In this case, ignorance is not ignorance when there is no mind. For me, I'm very happy to hear Bhante's description of this as there are very few descriptions apart from UG's that are clear about this. Anyone interested in reading UG's description of this can find it in 'The Biology Of Enlightenment', by Mukunda Rao.

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robertk
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by robertk » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:30 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 am
rohatsu wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 pm
Avijja in paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with knowledge or its absence (ignorance). It is simply the term used to describe the state, where all activities - emotional and perceptual - are absent. Previously Bhante was using the word 'unconsciousness' in order to describe avijja, but most people were baffled with this translation, so he decided to change it to 'insentience'.

As we know, the next link in paticcasamuppada is sankhara. There are four types of sankhara:

- Vaci sankhara - vitakka, vicara (conceptual thinking). Stops in 2nd Jhana.
- Kaya sankhara - in and out breathing. Stops in 4th Jhana.
- Citta sankhara - vedana and sanna (feeling and sensation). Stops after 4th Yatana i.e. neva sanna nasanna yatana (commonly named as the ' 4th arupa jhana' ). This is the point where sanna- vedayita-nirodha takes place.

After all above has stopped, only the most subtle sankhara is still present - the Ayu sankhara (metabolism). Mind ( as activity of the body) has ceased completely, hence 'insentience'.

The practitioner can stay in this state up to 7 days. If he doesn't come out from it, the body will die. But when he withdraw, awake from this state, he will see PATICCASAMUPPADA. That's the moment of awakening from real ignorance.
I think you've hit it on the head! This was described almost to the word by my friend U.G. Krishnamurti talking about his 'calamity' and trying to explain what had happened to him to his friends around him. Bhante used the term 'mindlessness'. All forms of consciousness (always associated with the senses/body)fall away. There is no knowledge or knowing. No Mind. The body cannot stay like this and when the 'metabolism' gets going again, paticcasamupadda is seen as it actually is. In this case, ignorance is not ignorance when there is no mind. For me, I'm very happy to hear Bhante's description of this as there are very few descriptions apart from UG's that are clear about this. Anyone interested in reading UG's description of this can find it in 'The Biology Of Enlightenment', by Mukunda Rao.
Both accounts seem way off the mark for describing insight at any level let alone the highest levels.

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:37 pm

robertk wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:30 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 am
rohatsu wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 pm
Avijja in paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with knowledge or its absence (ignorance). It is simply the term used to describe the state, where all activities - emotional and perceptual - are absent. Previously Bhante was using the word 'unconsciousness' in order to describe avijja, but most people were baffled with this translation, so he decided to change it to 'insentience'.

As we know, the next link in paticcasamuppada is sankhara. There are four types of sankhara:

- Vaci sankhara - vitakka, vicara (conceptual thinking). Stops in 2nd Jhana.
- Kaya sankhara - in and out breathing. Stops in 4th Jhana.
- Citta sankhara - vedana and sanna (feeling and sensation). Stops after 4th Yatana i.e. neva sanna nasanna yatana (commonly named as the ' 4th arupa jhana' ). This is the point where sanna- vedayita-nirodha takes place.

After all above has stopped, only the most subtle sankhara is still present - the Ayu sankhara (metabolism). Mind ( as activity of the body) has ceased completely, hence 'insentience'.

The practitioner can stay in this state up to 7 days. If he doesn't come out from it, the body will die. But when he withdraw, awake from this state, he will see PATICCASAMUPPADA. That's the moment of awakening from real ignorance.
I think you've hit it on the head! This was described almost to the word by my friend U.G. Krishnamurti talking about his 'calamity' and trying to explain what had happened to him to his friends around him. Bhante used the term 'mindlessness'. All forms of consciousness (always associated with the senses/body)fall away. There is no knowledge or knowing. No Mind. The body cannot stay like this and when the 'metabolism' gets going again, paticcasamupadda is seen as it actually is. In this case, ignorance is not ignorance when there is no mind. For me, I'm very happy to hear Bhante's description of this as there are very few descriptions apart from UG's that are clear about this. Anyone interested in reading UG's description of this can find it in 'The Biology Of Enlightenment', by Mukunda Rao.
Both accounts seem way off the mark for describing insight at any level let alone the highest levels.
What both accounts describe seem like the end of insight and the true transcendental realization of mindlessness which operates in the supramundane fields. I would not presume to understand what this would be like, but I can tell you that I have never met anyone remotely like U.G.

What do you conceptualize as insight at the highest levels? Do you think thought/perception filters anything anymore?

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pilgrim
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by pilgrim » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:44 pm

Ven Punnaji is a fan of old school psychology and his translations of stock Pali terms are generally impractical, ambiguous and can be misleading. For eg sanna is experience, vicikicca is cognitive dissonance and so on.

rohatsu
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by rohatsu » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:05 am

pilgrim wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:44 pm
Ven Punnaji is a fan of old school psychology and his translations of stock Pali terms are generally impractical, ambiguous and can be misleading. For eg sanna is experience, vicikicca is cognitive dissonance and so on.
That's how mistranslations occur:




Bhante P. is not only a "fan" of psychology, but also a very wise, old and experienced monk. How is that possible, that so many people - including monks - are still translating the word 'samadhi' as concentration ? Everyone who attained the 1st Jhana, should know what Samadhi is - by own experience.

Samadhi is a result, not the way to it.

If people doesn't experience the Samadhi, how can they know, what 'sanna' is ?

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robertk
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by robertk » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:58 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:37 pm
robertk wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:30 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 am


I think you've hit it on the head! This was described almost to the word by my friend U.G. Krishnamurti talking about his 'calamity' and trying to explain what had happened to him to his friends around him. Bhante used the term 'mindlessness'. All forms of consciousness (always associated with the senses/body)fall away. There is no knowledge or knowing. No Mind. The body cannot stay like this and when the 'metabolism' gets going again, paticcasamupadda is seen as it actually is. In this case, ignorance is not ignorance when there is no mind. For me, I'm very happy to hear Bhante's description of this as there are very few descriptions apart from UG's that are clear about this. Anyone interested in reading UG's description of this can find it in 'The Biology Of Enlightenment', by Mukunda Rao.
Both accounts seem way off the mark for describing insight at any level let alone the highest levels.
What both accounts describe seem like the end of insight and the true transcendental realization of mindlessness which operates in the supramundane fields. I would not presume to understand what this would be like, but I can tell you that I have never met anyone remotely like U.G.

What do you conceptualize as insight at the highest levels? Do you think thought/perception filters anything anymore?
of course perception, consciousness and all other khandas still function. The Bhante has a (very) unusual idea about enlightenment: really it is deep seeing into the nature of the world(the khandhas) not some sort of strange experience.
IMO

Saengnapha
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Re: Avijja translated as "Insentience"

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:09 pm

robertk wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:58 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:37 pm
robertk wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:30 am


Both accounts seem way off the mark for describing insight at any level let alone the highest levels.
What both accounts describe seem like the end of insight and the true transcendental realization of mindlessness which operates in the supramundane fields. I would not presume to understand what this would be like, but I can tell you that I have never met anyone remotely like U.G.

What do you conceptualize as insight at the highest levels? Do you think thought/perception filters anything anymore?
of course perception, consciousness and all other khandas still function. The Bhante has a (very) unusual idea about enlightenment: really it is deep seeing into the nature of the world(the khandhas) not some sort of strange experience.
IMO
I'm not sure what you mean by 'strange experience'. Khandhas still function but no longer from the point of view of a center. The dream of existence has ended for such a one.

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