When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
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SarathW
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When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:02 am

When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid!!

https://youtu.be/lyu7v7nWzfo
Last edited by SarathW on Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sam Vara
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid!!

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:41 pm

SarathW wrote:...
Interesting video, Sarath, with some important implications about our sense of self.

Many thanks.

SarathW
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid!!

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:12 pm

Agree.
I like the way he put the five aggregate and the Nibbana in a completely new perspective.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Garrib
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by Garrib » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:07 am

Hey,

I'll give a watch - just read the transcript. Looks like this person is a materialist - there is another recent thread where this is being discussed. He believes that consciousness/experience etc...ceases at death, just like it temporarily ceases during moments of unconsciousness (anesthesia)...This is a denial of rebirth, and ultimately, kamma. When the end of consciousness comes, there is nothing to be afraid of - but not because we become nothing at death - and by the way, that is what he means...he means that we shouldn't be afraid of "what dreams may come" because there will be absolute nothingness...There do seem to be some interesting things here but...

...This is not the Buddha's teaching...

Or, at least, that is my opinion. But thanks for sharing, nonetheless!

Best,

Brad

pegembara
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by pegembara » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:15 am

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one senses it disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

http://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_88.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Garrib
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by Garrib » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:39 am

pegembara wrote:One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one senses it disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

http://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_88.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Yes but this is referring to one who is an Arahant, correct? Look at the last line of the first paragraph in your quotation.

This means that the Buddha is referring to a fully enlightened being - not just anyone!

Or do you mean to suggest you think the Buddha taught that all experience ceases at death, for everyone, including the unenlightened? And that this is what he meant by Nibbana?

But then, what is the point of the spiritual path? I mean, Yes, it will make things better here and now - but ultimately, it would just be the same whether you practiced or not - you'd be nothing?

I'm just not exactly sure what is being suggested by this kind of post - could you perhaps add some commentary on how you are interpreting this passage?

Thanks,

Brad

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Sovatthika
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by Sovatthika » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:50 am

that was a good talk, and i liked this one too
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

SarathW
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:52 am

Garrib wrote:Hey,

I'll give a watch - just read the transcript. Looks like this person is a materialist - there is another recent thread where this is being discussed. He believes that consciousness/experience etc...ceases at death, just like it temporarily ceases during moments of unconsciousness (anesthesia)...This is a denial of rebirth, and ultimately, kamma. When the end of consciousness comes, there is nothing to be afraid of - but not because we become nothing at death - and by the way, that is what he means...he means that we shouldn't be afraid of "what dreams may come" because there will be absolute nothingness...There do seem to be some interesting things here but...

...This is not the Buddha's teaching...

Or, at least, that is my opinion. But thanks for sharing, nonetheless!

Best,

Brad
Hi Brad
Good observation.
What else can we add to this presentation to get it as close as to Buddha's teaching?
Is it necessary to believe kamma and rebirth to become an Arahant?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:29 pm

SarathW wrote:What else can we add to this presentation to get it as close as to Buddha's teaching?
Is it necessary to believe kamma and rebirth to become an Arahant?
Why even use the term "arahant" if one is not willing to use the term "kamma"?

pegembara
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by pegembara » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:55 am

Garrib wrote:
pegembara wrote:One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one senses it disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

http://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_88.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Yes but this is referring to one who is an Arahant, correct? Look at the last line of the first paragraph in your quotation.

This means that the Buddha is referring to a fully enlightened being - not just anyone!

Or do you mean to suggest you think the Buddha taught that all experience ceases at death, for everyone, including the unenlightened? And that this is what he meant by Nibbana?

I'm just not exactly sure what is being suggested by this kind of post - could you perhaps add some commentary on how you are interpreting this passage?

Thanks,

Brad
Arahants are humans who have awaken to the truth (of anicca, dukkha and anatta), not some special non human species. The purpose of the practice is not to gain eternal existence. That would be clinging to existence (bhavatanha).
But then, what is the point of the spiritual path? I mean, Yes, it will make things better here and now - but ultimately, it would just be the same whether you practiced or not - you'd be nothing?
They are freed from the burden of the aggregates(existence) and the fear that they become nothing isn't an issue anymore.
There are no painful mental states, chieftain,
in one without longing.
In one whose fetters are ended,
all fears are overcome.
With the ending of [craving]
the guide to becoming,
when phenomena are seen
for what they are,
then just as in the laying down of a burden,
there's no fear in death.

I've lived well the holy life,
well-developed the path.
Death holds no fear for me.
It's like the end of a disease.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The goal is the extinguishment of greed, hatred and delusion.
"Enraptured with lust (rāga), enraged with anger (dosa), blinded by delusion (moha), overwhelmed, with mind ensnared, man aims at his own ruin, at the ruin of others, at the ruin of both, and he experiences mental pain and grief. But if lust, anger and delusion are given up, man aims neither at his own ruin, nor at the ruin of others, nor at the ruin of both, and he experiences no mental pain and grief. Thus is Nibbāna visible in this life, immediate, inviting, attractive, and comprehensible to the wise" (A.III.55).
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Garrib
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by Garrib » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:22 pm

Yes, thank you for the response - though if you had read my post in its proper context I think you would see that I was not in confusion about those points.

Have a good day!

Brad

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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by ToVincent » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:25 pm

If the OP title has to do with death, then it should be reformulated:

When the end of Ignorance comes; nothing to be afraid at all!

For Ignorance we are - just ignorance - plain Ignorance - sheer Ignorance - from begining up to birth.
And when Ignorance comes to an end, What comes to be then?
That is what is not to be afraid of.
The simile of the flame in MN 72 (// in SA) is the illustration of this.

This guy's "ignorance," seems as deep as his anesthetic artificial sleep; which by the way is not death - but just a loss of bodily sensation, with or without loss of "sense-consciousness" - which for most of us, (if not all of us, but a very very few), means a loss of mano + its attached (fettered) un-liberated citta.
Maybe this can help understand the above said https://justpaste.it/19eb6 (see #2).

Another one good for the cycle of the ignorant' s "immortality", (aka the wheel of saṃsāra) [so dear to the maras].

Mudita.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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TreeSleeper
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Re: When the end of consciousness come nothing to be afraid at all!!

Post by TreeSleeper » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:59 pm

There is no way that consciousness can come from the brain. This tiny bag of meat called the brain just part of the body. Awareness is first, it is who we are, it is the one who knows, the heart. The heart is what controllers perceptions. The heart is the one that remembers. The brain just picks up the information of the heart and tries to interpret it. The problem is that scientists are too conceited in their views to accept that. They'll always try to say consciousness comes from the brain because they want to feel like they know something. It is us who have created this brain and body through our kamma. Just as simple as that. No need to spend all this research and years trying to figure out something which is right under our noses. The Buddha said these things 2600 years ago and he knew more about the brain than anyone ever will.

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