Karmic Result of Starting a Beauty/Modeling Company?

[LG2V]

I was unsure of the karmic effect of it. I know that professions such as acting and sports are not recommended, and I think it's safe to presume that something like pornography isn't good to pursue either.

I'd appreciate your opinions. I haven't poured any time or resources into the idea, yet it would take very little for me to do so. So I am open to persuasion on either side. Please let me know what you think.

It depends on your intention. If your intention is to objectify beautiful women for men's pleasure, then this is basically human trafficking (the business of humans) and definitely not skillful or right livelihood.

If you're assisting women to be human mannequins for consumer goods so they can make a living ... then its fine (in the absence of a critical analysis of consumer culture, the role it plays in the destruction of the thin layer of life here in Earth, and the directly related extinction of 150k species a year and accelerating with 2/3 of all species projected to be extinct by the end of the century).

To be honest, I think we are all unsure of the karmic consequences of most of our actions. The vast majority of livelihoods that one might follow in materialistic cultures are likely to be unwholesome kamma since they promote greed (most retail) and delusion (most entertainments), if not ill-will (military, boxing, etc.).

The Buddha proscribed only five wrong livelihoods (micchājīva), which Buddhists should not follow because they entail serious unwholesome kamma. There are many others (like comedian, prostitute, actors, to name just a few), which also entail unwholesome kamma that is less heavy than direct killing and fraud. Then there are the majority that encourage greed, and bring little benefit but much harm, e.g. selling junk food.

The Venerable Ledi Sayādaw uses the term dūrājiva (not found elsewhere), which are given up by Stream-winners. We could translate it as bad livelihood, injurious livelihood, or wrong livelihood.

Even though the Stream-winners keep on going through many more existences for many aeons in the round of births, their minds are always secluded from being harassed by Micchā Diṭṭhi Dhammas, Duccarita, Dūrājiva Dhammas and Apāya Dukkha.

Micchā diṭṭhi = wrong views
Duccarita = wrong conduct
Dūrājiva = bad livelihood
Apāya dukkha = suffering in the lower realms of animals, ghosts, jealous gods and in hell.

One's livelihood is important in moulding one's future happiness because the actions that one does every day to earn a living become habitual kamma, and have a powerful influence over our destiny.

When I was a student engineer, involved in building the Motorway Intersection between the A5 and A406 North Circular Road at Staples Corner, and later when working on the earlier Channel Tunnel project (not the one that got completed), I was not happy that I was doing anything particularly beneficial for society, and it made me ponder deeply on what I really wanted to do with my life. This soon led me to Buddhism, and so I am now a Buddhist monk.

Not everyone is suited to being a monastic. Lay people have to earn a living any way that they can to avoid falling into debt. One may end up selling beef-burgers, or working in a bar, or off-license; none of which are particularly wholesome activities, but if one does the work honestly fulfilling one's duties, it is right-livelihood.

If you are wise, intelligent, and diligent, you can choose what you do in life. I know someone who was working in retail, selling high-end leather goods. She quit and is looking to set up a vegan products based business. It is not easy to do, but I wish her well, and her intention is right.

A lot of Buddhists want their children to be doctors, thinking that this will be a wholesome livelihood. The medical profession is not the only choice for Buddhists; there are many other ways to serve society in wholesome ways, while not encouraging greed, hatred, and delusion.

Think on it well while you are young. Once you are deeply involved in any career, it becomes harder and harder to change course.

Thank you Bhikkhu Pesala. That makes a lot of sense. You've helped me to think about things more calmly and comprehensively. Thank you for telling me the story about how you became a monastic. And thank you for explaining right & wrong livelihood in more detail.

I will work on the modeling company for now, and see if it feels right. It's something that I enjoy doing, and it will make for good experience, I think.

[pink_trike]

deleted ... duplicate post.

[pink_trike]

Nothing to explain. Intention to objectify beautiful women for men's pleasure is not basically human trafficking.....it is not human trafficking at all. Human trafficking is the business of buying and selling people who have been enslaved....you know; slavery.
chownah

The vast majority of young women on internet modeling sites are poor and uneducated, desperately trying to earn a living. They are paid very poorly, rented (sold) with the site owner taking 60% or more (and in many cases paid just a very low hourly rate). They are very often pressured to sign long contracts (trapping them), pay for expensive "modeling classes", and to buy expensive clothes / makeup. They are exploited, indebted, and make very little money. There's a fine line between renting / trapping and buying / enslaved...

[pink_trike]

If you're assisting women to be human mannequins for consumer goods so they can make a living ... then its fine (in the absence of a critical analysis of consumer culture, the role it plays in the destruction of the thin layer of life here in Earth, and the directly related extinction of 150k species a year and accelerating with 2/3 of all species projected to be extinct by the end of the century).

And in the presence of such a critical analysis?

Maybe choose to do something that doesn't feed the consumer machine and that doesn't seek profit in the promotion of desire. Rapid species extinct isn't something that's happening separate from us and our actions.

[chownah]

There's a fine line between renting / trapping and buying / enslaved

No there isn't. The "line" seperating these things is not fine. The differences between these things are only confused by those who are easily confused.
chownah

[pink_trike]

There's a fine line between renting / trapping and buying / enslaved

No there isn't. The "line" seperating these things is not fine. The differences between these things are only confused by those who are easily confused.
chownah

Nope, they both arise from exactly the same patterns of thought, different only in degree.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

There is a clear distinction between enslavement and employment. An enslaved woman has no choice, but has to do what she is told, on pain of severe punishment or death. She cannot just walk off the job if told to do something immoral, or something that she does not wish to do.

If she is skilled at her job, a model can pick and choose which assignments to accept. Just as in any form of employment, a man or woman can choose to take on dirty, difficult, or dangerous work if it is well-paid. An enslaved manual worker has no rights, no legal protection that will result in compensation if injured while working, etc.

[chownah]

There's a fine line between renting / trapping and buying / enslaved

No there isn't. The "line" seperating these things is not fine. The differences between these things are only confused by those who are easily confused.
chownah

Nope, they both arise from exactly the same patterns of thought, different only in degree.

If you are right then when I hire someone to help me harvest rice it is the same thought process as enslaving them. Someone is confused here and I'll let eveyone decide for themselves who it is.
chownah

[pink_trike]

If you are right then when I hire someone to help me harvest rice it is the same thought process as enslaving them. Someone is confused here and I'll let eveyone decide for themselves who it is.
chownah

If you hire only very poor people who only know how to harvest rice who have no other employment opportunites, don't pay them a living wage, force them to buy (or replace broken) expensive equipment, make them pay for expensive training, or find other ways of reducing the amount you pay them ... then it is a form of enslavement. If this doesn't describe your situation, then it isn't enslavement. Its all about exploitation or not ... economic exploitation is a form of enslavement.

The differences between these things are only confused by those who are easily confused.

Someone is confused here and I'll let eveyone decide for themselves who it is.
chownah

You seem to be taking this conversation very personally ...

[chownah]

Its all about exploitation or not ... economic exploitation is a form of enslavement.

No it's not. You've got it backwards. Exploitation is not a form of enslavement....enslavement is a form of exploitation.
chownah

[chownah]

You seem to be taking this conversation very personally ...

Do I? Really? It must be your psychotheraputic training which developed your powerful discernment.
chownah (misses popcorn with nutritional yeast as it is unavailable in thailand)

[binocular]

There is a clear distinction between enslavement and employment. An enslaved woman has no choice, but has to do what she is told, on pain of severe punishment or death. She cannot just walk off the job if told to do something immoral, or something that she does not wish to do.

Many people nowadays are in a situation similar to slaves, even if nominally/legally, they aren't slaves.
Companies will do to great lengths to not live up to their stated obligations toward their employees, insurance companies work very hard to avoid paying. Workers' rights not rarely exist only on paper. For an employee to take legal action against their employer, even when the law is on the side of the employee, and even if the employee wins, in the long run, this is not rarely bad for the employee who sued his boss/company (people generally don't want to hire those hwo have sued their boss/company).

If she is skilled at her job, a model can pick and choose which assignments to accept.

This is, of course, true. But one can only succeed at this kind of selectiveness if one's parents have done their job properly and started preparing the child for a successul future long before the child was even born.

- - -

Maybe choose to do something that doesn't feed the consumer machine and that doesn't seek profit in the promotion of desire.

I can't think of any such line of work, at least not in current times.

[chownah]

Companies will do to great lengths to not live up to their stated obligations toward their employees

I have been employed at many many different companies in my life and I have not really seen that they would go to great lengths to avoid living up to their stated obligations toward their employees. (Actually it did happen one time...although the company didn't have to go to great lengths...I only worked for them for a few days and then quit and they did not pay the employment taxes for me...a small and insignificant matter.) I had a company before with employees and I did not go to great lengths to etc. I think your synicism is distorting your view of the world the way it really is....at least for the world which I have seen.

chownah

[chownah]

Many people nowadays are in a situation similar to slaves, even if nominally/legally, they aren't slaves.

Hard to discuss "many people". Do you mean like a couple dozen people? Do you mean 1% of the population? Using the term "many people" lets you stretch the facts maximally to try to make your idea seem more legitimate....it is discouraging when people do this.

I do think that the concept you mention does apply in some third world countries where people are desperately poor and life is uncertain on a day to day basis.
chownah

[binocular]

I live in south-central Europe. We get the national televisions of several countries, and I understand their languages.
Every day, there's a panel discussion or a documentary somewhere about how worker's rights are being abused, how more and more people in Europe are sinking into poverty.

It's too depressing to look for the exact statistics and to translate them. Suffice to say that the situaiton is nothing like what it was until about twenty years ago, when we still had socialism (or whatever that particular version was back then); it's much worse.