Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
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ganegaar
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby ganegaar » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:49 am

SarathW wrote:Very interesting thoughts Whynotime.
Coming back to the topic I just start to wonder whether homage is about seniority and customs.
For example a newly ordained monk should bow down to senior monk.
Any female monk should bow down to any male monk irrespective of seniority.


The examples you have quoted does not match the original question. These examples are monastic rules intended to facilitate a harmonious environment, by simply avoiding any sort of conflicts that may arise due to seniority or gender!. One might argue a gender discrimination here, but consider the fact with this rule that an arahant might be paying respect to a non-arahant monk as well !., so the intention of Buddha here is clear, just avoid any seniority conflict at its root!
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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ganegaar
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby ganegaar » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:33 pm

I just start to wonder whether homage is about seniority and customs

When contemplating for myself, why I pay homage to Buddha ( and dhamma and sangha), I realized another aspect that should be mentioned. It is rather "how do we pay homage". We recite a set of verses when paying homage, when done with mindful understanding may lead to a wonderful insight.

One such verse (among many) to further clarify this post is:
Pujemi Buddham - I offer to Buddha
Kusumen nena - these flowers
Punnena metena labhami mokham - of that merit (of offering flowers), may I realize nibbana
Puppham milayati - (flowers) bloom and then fades away,
Yatha Idam me Kayo tathayati vinasa bhavam - just so my body would go into destruction.

Hope we all would see through these words and see a different perspective of paying homage.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

gben
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby gben » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:34 am

If a buddhist or a school of buddhism pays homage to the Buddha or teaches others to then they are not actually buddhists or buddhist schools.

Currently most buddhism and most buddhist teachers and teachings are either very far from what Buddhism actually is or completely not necessary.

Just as modern Christianity has almost nothing to do with who or what Jesus of Nazareth was. Delusional men through the centuries have splintered Buddhism into many pieces at their will, men have turned Buddhism into hierarchies and into businesses and a livelihood.

Buddhas are not here to be worshiped, they are here to free you, worship, homage and other rituals and ceremonies are a waste of time, they are things put together by men not Buddhas.

The word "Buddhism" itself is actually useless beyond being a label for the phenomenon it names. The best thing to do is what the original Buddha did, throw out all the things non-Buddhas are doing and find yourself by relaxing and watching yourself. When you gain actual self-knowledge, when you see what you are then you are as much a Buddha as there ever was.

You are simply a part of life hosting the phenomenon of thought. Figure out what that means and you are free.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby Coëmgenu » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:37 am

gben wrote:If a buddhist or a school of buddhism pays homage to the Buddha or teaches others to then they are not actually buddhists or buddhist schools.
Congratulations! By the standard you set forth here only a handful of Western converts are actual Buddhists. Similarly, no extant tradition of Buddhism is authentic/"actual" by your metric.

Makes me feel special to be one of the only Buddhists. Little did these non-Buddhist people before us know that the secret to being Buddhist was actually just being a secular humanist all along.

gben wrote:Just as modern Christianity has almost nothing to do with who or what Jesus of Nazareth was.
Do you have a source for this?

gben wrote:Buddhas are not here to be worshiped, they are here to free you, worship, homage and other rituals and ceremonies are a waste of time, they are things put together by men not Buddhas.
It is well-established in the Pāli Buddhavacana that neither worship, homage, nor rituals, are innately bad or evil things in and of themselves.

The Buddha was not a Protestant Christian of American evangelical ideology engaging in anti-Catholic polemic. He gives several rituals to this followers which are practices to this day, such as Buddhist meditation.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

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Mkoll
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:40 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
gben wrote:If a buddhist or a school of buddhism pays homage to the Buddha or teaches others to then they are not actually buddhists or buddhist schools.
Congratulations! By the standard you set forth here only a handful of Western converts are actual Buddhists. Similarly, no extant tradition of Buddhism is authentic/"actual" by your metric.

Makes me feel special to be one of the only Buddhists. Little did these non-Buddhist people before us know that the secret to being Buddhist was actually just being a secular humanist all along.

Didn't you know, gben is a "buddha."

viewtopic.php?t=20569

:shock:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

form
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby form » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:23 am

Paying homage just means respect.

chownah
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby chownah » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:09 am

form wrote:Paying homage just means respect.

Doesn't paying homage go beyond just respecting?....doesn't it mean a ritualistic or public declaration to portray that respect? I can respect someone and say nothing in which case I am not paying homage I think.
chownah

form
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby form » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:41 am

chownah wrote:
form wrote:Paying homage just means respect.

Doesn't paying homage go beyond just respecting?....doesn't it mean a ritualistic or public declaration to portray that respect? I can respect someone and say nothing in which case I am not paying homage I think.
chownah


Guess it depends on people. So just behaved respectfully, some will go down on knees etc.

chownah
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby chownah » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:44 am

I respect my brother but I do not pay homage to him.
chownah

SarathW
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby SarathW » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:58 am

Even Buddha wanted some thing to respect and homage.
So he kept Dhamma as his teacher.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby chownah » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:18 pm

SarathW wrote:Even Buddha wanted some thing to respect and homage.
So he kept Dhamma as his teacher.

Your use of the word "homage" here is incorrect. You are using it as a verb and it is a noun everywhere that I have seen except obscure archaic poetic expression. You can say "it is good to respect the buddha" but it is not correct in english to say "it is good to homage the buddha".
chownah

form
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby form » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:11 pm

chownah wrote:I respect my brother but I do not pay homage to him.
chownah


The difference is the degree of respect. And... the way of expressing it.

SarathW
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby SarathW » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:18 pm

chownah wrote:
SarathW wrote:Even Buddha wanted some thing to respect and homage.
So he kept Dhamma as his teacher.

Your use of the word "homage" here is incorrect. You are using it as a verb and it is a noun everywhere that I have seen except obscure archaic poetic expression. You can say "it is good to respect the buddha" but it is not correct in english to say "it is good to homage the buddha".
chownah


I think this word is used in the cannon very often.

"Go to the Blessed One and, on arrival, pay homage to his feet with your head in my name and say 'Lord, Anathapindika the householder is diseased, in pain, ..
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:23 pm

SarathW wrote:
chownah wrote:
SarathW wrote:Even Buddha wanted some thing to respect and homage.
So he kept Dhamma as his teacher.

Your use of the word "homage" here is incorrect. You are using it as a verb and it is a noun everywhere that I have seen except obscure archaic poetic expression. You can say "it is good to respect the buddha" but it is not correct in english to say "it is good to homage the buddha".
chownah


I think this word is used in the cannon very often.

"Go to the Blessed One and, on arrival, pay homage to his feet with your head in my name and say 'Lord, Anathapindika the householder is diseased, in pain, ..
Chownah was talking about which "part-of-speech" homage is. You can pay homage to someone. But you can't just "homage someone", because homage isn't a verb, that is what I think he meant.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

SarathW
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby SarathW » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:50 pm

it is not correct in english to say "it is good to homage the buddha".

Agree.
It is correct to say "it is good to pay homage to buddha"
:focus:
Last edited by SarathW on Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby chownah » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:49 am

SarathW wrote:
it is not correct in english to say "it is good to homage the buddha".

Agree.
It is correct to say "it is good to pay homage the buddha"
:focus:

You forget the word "to"...it is correct to say "it is good to pay homage TO the buddha."
This is important because this shows that when one pays homage one pays homage TO someone and this shows how paying homage is like a transaction in which there is some action which moves from the person paying the homage to the person who is the object of the paying of homage. It is vaguely like if you "pay money TO someone"....it is an action which moves from the person paying the monet TO the person receiving the money.

I think that respect is an attitude and that paying homage is an act or action whether internal or external which is meant to express that respect. I think it takes a strong presentation of the attitude of respect for someone to express that respect through an action of paying homage. I guess that paying homage is an expression of strongly felt respect.

I think that paying homage as presented in the scriptures is a way to remind people to remember that they are on a path.....we so easily forget this I think...... I don't think it is to say how great the buddha was....he is dead already and can't hear it anyway.....
chownah
Edit: My discussion here is about the english language and the use of the words "pay homage to". I want to point out that the idea of "pay homage to" might not be a correct translation for the pali words used in the scriptures. It could be that the ideas associated with "pay homage to" are not what the scriptures are trying to express. It could be that there is no phrase in the english language which exactly expresses the pali words and "pay homage to" is just a similar idea and not quite right.....I don't know.
chownah

SarathW
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby SarathW » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:35 am

Thanks for the correction.
:focus:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby chownah » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:27 am

:focus:
I think that paying homage as presented in the scriptures is a way to remind people to remember that they are on a path.....we so easily forget this I think...... I don't think it is to say how great the buddha was....he is dead already and can't hear it anyway.....
chownah

SarathW
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby SarathW » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:06 am

he is dead already and can't hear it anyway

Aren't we paying homage to our teachers? (monks and parents etc.)
Is bow down means paying homage to someone?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

form
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Re: Why we pay homage to Buddha?

Postby form » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:23 am

What about some highly knowledgeable in Buddhism saying they are not Buddhist? Or some obviously highly accomplished in Buddhist training that do not want to be labelled as a Buddhist?


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