What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.)

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soogar571
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What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.)

Postby soogar571 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:10 am

1. idappaccayatā

Q : What are Buddha awakened?
A : Buddha awakened idappaccayatā(in this, the fact of having paccaya).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.20 PTS: S ii 25 CDB i 550 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions
"Now what is paṭiccasamuppādo? Jātipaccayā, bhikkhave, jarāmaraṇaṃ. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, idappaccayatā(in this, the fact of having paccaya). The Tathagata directly awakens to that(idappaccayatā), breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' Jātipaccayā, bhikkhave, jarāmaraṇaṃ.

Q : What is the relationship between idappaccayatā and paṭiccasamuppāda?
A : The paṭiccasamuppāda is idappaccayatā.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.20 PTS: S ii 25 CDB i 550 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions
What's there in this way is a reality, not an unreality, not other than what it seems, idappaccayatā. This(idappaccayatā) is called paṭiccasamuppāda.
Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā— ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo.

Q : How did Buddha awakened 'paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā)'?
A : (1) Buddha awakened 'paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā)' by realizing that the twelve tasks(avijiā, sankhāra, viññāna, nāma-rūpa, salāyatana, phassa, vedanā, tanhā, upādāna, bhava, jāti, jarāmaranam) are paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā. (2) Buddha also awakened 'paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā)' by realizing that the five khandha(rūpa, vedanā, saññā, sankhāra, viññāna) are paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.20 PTS: S ii 25 CDB i 550 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions
"And what are paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā? jarāmaranam are paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā: inconstant, compounded, paṭiccasamuppannaṃ, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.21
Saṃyutta Nikāya 22 Connected Discourses on the Aggregates 21. Ānanda
“Rūpa, Ānanda, is impermanent, conditioned, paṭiccasamuppannaṃ, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to fading away, to cessation. Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of.

Q : Why is the paccaya of idapaccaya so important?
A : Buddha awakened that paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā appeared or disappeared according to paccaya(casual relation) appearing or disappearing. In other words, It is said(implied) that all paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā depend on paccaya(casual relation)!
The Law of Casual Relations
http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_8.htm
pls refer attached picture!

http://www.soogar.com/dhammawheel/thoug ... em_eng.htm

The picture attached is called DFD(Data Flow Diagram) using by programmers when they design program or system. As you can see on the picture, tne program or system is an agregation of paccayas(casual relation) among between data and process(task), data and data, process(task) and process(task). It is not incorrect that you can see the rupa and nama of a thought-system as a synonym of data and process(task) of a computer system.

Q : What is the result of the awakening of 'paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā)' and paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā?
A : There is nothing to run unnecessarily into past, present and future.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.20 PTS: S ii 25 CDB i 550 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions
"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this 'paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā)' & these paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā as they have come to be, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?'


2. anatta

Q : What are Buddha awakened?
A : Buddha awakened anattā.
AN 3.134 PTS: A i 286 Thai 3.137
Dhamma-niyama Sutta: The Discourse on the Orderliness of the Dhamma
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All phenomena are not-self(sabbe dhammā anattā).[1] "The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All phenomena are not-self(sabbe dhammā anattā)."

Q : How did Buddha awakened 'anatta'?'
A : Buddha realized 'anatta' through a simple experiment like the following. Try it yourself as Buddha did and then you should realized 'anatta'!
SN 22.59 PTS: S iii 66 CDB i 901 Pañcavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren
(aka: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Rūpa, monks, is 'anatta'. If rūpa were 'atta', this rūpa would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to rūpa, 'Let this rūpa be thus. Let this rūpa not be thus.' But precisely because rūpa is 'anatta', rūpa lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to rūpa, 'Let this form be thus. Let this rūpa not be thus.'

Q : What the result of the awakening of 'anatta'?
A : You will have ‘knowledge of vimutti’ like the following.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended(Khīṇā jāti), the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world(nāparaṃ itthattāyā).'"
Vimuttasmiṃ vimuttamiti ñāṇaṃ hoti. ‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī”ti.


Words in ending.

Buddha who realized 'anatta' and paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā), should have reached vimutti, and there is no doubt the vimutti must be to meet and experience the ultimate reality, Nibbana! Nowadays, if we are fully immersed in Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anattalakkhaṇasutta S22:59 as when five Bhikkhus had heard the word of Budda 2,600 years ago, will not we also reach vimutti(experiencing Nibbana)? I believe the 'immediate vimutti' of Anattalakkhaṇasutta S22:59 as true! Now! Let's challenge once!(fin)
:namaste:
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Object determines the quality of citta.
So, the experience of nibbana at this very moment invokes the lokuttara citta.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:02 am

Yes, Dependent Origination is the teaching unique to the Buddhas, by means of which they put an end to saṃsāra. The Mogok vipassnā tradition of Burma emphasises this teaching more than other teachings. Below is a chart that they use to teach this important doctrine.

Paticca Samuppada Diagram.png
Paticca Samuppada Diagram.png (139.76 KiB) Viewed 381 times
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Dmytro
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Re: What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.

Postby Dmytro » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:36 am

Hi,

There's a comprehensive list of things Buddha comprehended at:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27472

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Re: What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.

Postby soogar571 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:27 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Yes, Dependent Origination is the teaching unique to the Buddhas, by means of which they put an end to saṃsāra. The Mogok vipassnā tradition of Burma emphasises this teaching more than other teachings. Below is a chart that they use to teach this important doctrine.


Thank you for your interest in my writing. Abhidhammatthasangaha has two sub-titles of 'Paticcasamuppada' and 'Patthāna' under the heading, 'Paccaya'. This is an evidence that there has historically been two understandings of 'Paccaya'.

But, as I mentioned in the thread above, five khandhas are also said to be paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā, like the twelve elements of Paticcasamuppada, and I do not think that understanding of 'paccaya' need be divided into two.

For this reason, I personally have a very skeptical position against the historical efforts that used Paticcasamuppada as a means of demonstration of samsara. I already revealed my idea about samsara within my thread, ‘new interpretation of samsara and patisandhi from my experience’.
:namaste:
Object determines the quality of citta.
So, the experience of nibbana at this very moment invokes the lokuttara citta.

home page : http://www.soogar.com
facebook : https://www.facebook.com/soogar571

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soogar571
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Re: What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.

Postby soogar571 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:06 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi,
There's a comprehensive list of things Buddha comprehended at:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27472

Thank you for your good information. I have seen English-sutta through three different web-sites. As you well know, when an important Pali-term is translated into English, in the worst case, it is being translated into three different English vocabularies. So, I often reconfirm through the Pali original text while watching english-sutta.

For 'idappaccayatā' in the thread above, anywhere in English-sutta does not contain the meaning of Pali-dictionary as below.

idappaccayatā = ida + ppaccayatā
ida + ppaccayatā = in this + the fact of having causal relation

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... splay=utf8

I am hoping that you can see me more often.
:namaste:
Object determines the quality of citta.
So, the experience of nibbana at this very moment invokes the lokuttara citta.

home page : http://www.soogar.com
facebook : https://www.facebook.com/soogar571

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Dmytro
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Re: What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.

Postby Dmytro » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:09 pm

soogar571 wrote:For 'idappaccayatā' in the thread above, anywhere in English-sutta does not contain the meaning of Pali-dictionary as below.

idappaccayatā = ida + ppaccayatā
ida + ppaccayatā = in this + the fact of having causal relation

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... splay=utf8


Good point. You may find useful the threads:

Pali Term: Idappaccayatā viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6014
Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5974

I am glad you are raising so essential issues.

:namaste:

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soogar571
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Re: What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.

Postby soogar571 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:04 am

Dmytro wrote:Good point. You may find useful the threads:
Pali Term: Idappaccayatā http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6014
Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5974
I am glad you are raising so essential issues.

Here is a summary of the first theme ‘idapaccaya’ in my thread above.
(1) Buddha awakened idappaccayatā(in this, the fact of having paccaya). (2) The paṭiccasamuppāda is(eaquals) idappaccayatā. (3) Buddha awakened 'paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā)' by realizing that the twelve tasks(avijiā, sankhāra, viññāna, nāma-rūpa, salāyatana, phassa, vedanā, tanhā, upādāna, bhava, jāti, jarāmaranam) are paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā and by realizing that the five khandha(rūpa, vedanā, saññā, sankhāra, viññāna) are also paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā. (4) Buddha awakened that paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā appeared or disappeared according to paccaya(casual relation) appearing or disappearing. In other words, It is said(implied) that all paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā depend on paccaya(casual relation)! (5) When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this 'paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā)' & these paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā as they have come to be, there is nothing to run unnecessarily into past, present and future.

Let's focus on the phrase ‘the five khandha are also paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.’ in (3). Buddha realized paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā) not only among between the twelve(avijiā...jarāmaranam) but also between five khandha. This means that paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā) is not limited to the twelve(avijiā...jarāmaranam). That is to say, a person who correctly realized paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā) like Buddha can reach the conclusion of (4) ‘It is said(implied) that all paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā depend on paccaya(casual relation)!’.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.20 PTS: S ii 25 CDB i 550 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions
What's there in this way is a reality, not an unreality, not other than what it seems, idappaccayatā. This(idappaccayatā) is called paṭiccasamuppāda.
Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā— ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo.

Finally, I appreciate the information you linked, but I do not think any explanation of paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā) which created after Buddha can surpass the sutta above.
:namaste:
Object determines the quality of citta.
So, the experience of nibbana at this very moment invokes the lokuttara citta.

home page : http://www.soogar.com
facebook : https://www.facebook.com/soogar571

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Dmytro
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Re: What are Buddha awakened and how? (While considering with Paccaya Sutta S12:20 and Anatta-lakkhana Sutta S22:59 etc.

Postby Dmytro » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:29 pm

soogar571 wrote:Let's focus on the phrase ‘the five khandha are also paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.’ in (3). Buddha realized paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā) not only among between the twelve(avijiā...jarāmaranam) but also between five khandha. This means that paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā) is not limited to the twelve(avijiā...jarāmaranam). That is to say, a person who correctly realized paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā) like Buddha can reach the conclusion of (4) ‘It is said(implied) that all paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā depend on paccaya(casual relation)!’.


Of course all the five aggregates (khandha) have requisite conditions (paccaya).
The links to requisite conditions are described in the suttas, - I have summarized them in the diagram
http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm

E.g. 'saññā' has 'phassa' as a requisite condition (paccaya), and so on.

Finally, I appreciate the information you linked, but I do not think any explanation of paṭiccasamuppāda(idappaccayatā) which created after Buddha can surpass the sutta above.


If you equate your understanding, based on one particular translated sutta, with the "original teaching", and dismiss everything else as "later interpolations" - you can quickly get into the popular trap of "my early Buddhism".
Hermeneutics here has to take in account many suttas and other sources to be more or less reliable.

:namaste:


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