Is good always win?

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
Post Reply
SarathW
Posts: 8139
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Is good always win?

Post by SarathW » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:40 pm

Is good always win?

Many of us are brought up in a culture that " good always win".
In a movie the hero (good person) always win.
This is the theme of in any famous story as well (David and Goliath)
Buddha defeated the Mara.

Question is whether this notion is in line with the Buddhist teaching.
Is there a natural tendency that good always win?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: Is good always win?

Post by Nicolas » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:49 pm

This came to mind:
Uttiya Sutta (AN 10.95) wrote: “Will all the cosmos be led [to release], or a half of it, or a third?”

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ananda: “Don’t let Uttiya the wanderer acquire the evil viewpoint that, ‘When I asked him an all-encompassing question, Gotama the contemplative faltered and didn’t reply. Perhaps he was unable to.’ That would be for his long-term harm & suffering.” So he said to Uttiya, “In that case, my friend, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it is through the use of analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said.

“Uttiya, suppose that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong ramparts, strong walls & arches, and a single gate. In it would be a wise, competent, & knowledgeable gatekeeper to keep out those he didn’t know and to let in those he did. Patrolling the path around the city, he wouldn’t see a crack or an opening in the walls big enough for even a cat to slip through. Although he wouldn’t know that ‘So-and-so many creatures enter or leave the city,’ he would know this: ‘Whatever large creatures enter or leave the city all enter or leave it through this gate.’

“In the same way, the Tathagata isn’t concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: ‘All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances—those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment—having well-established their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening. When you asked the Blessed One this question, you had already asked it in another way. That’s why he didn’t respond.”

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 10846
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Is good always win?

Post by DNS » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:52 pm

SarathW wrote: Many of us are brought up in a culture that " good always win".
In a movie the hero (good person) always win.
In fiction movies, yes; in some non-fiction movies, the hero dies.
Is there a natural tendency that good always win?
Kamma always wins; not necessarily good, depends on actions, intentions.

binocular
Posts: 3914
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is good always win?

Post by binocular » Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:45 am

SarathW wrote:Is there a natural tendency that good always win?
Depends on the time-frame in which you observe something.

If you observe it in a short enough time-frame, then things seem black-and-white enough: the cat kills the mouse, the Allied Powers defeated the Axis Powers, etc.
But if you look at things in a longer time-frame, everyone just gets old, gets sick, and dies.

SarathW
Posts: 8139
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is good always win?

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:07 pm

[quote] in a longer time-frame, everyone just gets old, gets sick, and dies./quote]

Does this mean there is no good and bad?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
ryanM
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Is good always win?

Post by ryanM » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:15 pm

SarathW wrote:
in a longer time-frame, everyone just gets old, gets sick, and dies./quote]

Does this mean there is no good and bad?
Didn't the Buddha say this was wrong view? Along with the view that "there is nothing given, offerd or sacrificed, no fruit or ripening of good and bad actions, no this world, no other world, no mother, no father, [etc.]"
sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāya

"nothing whatsoever should be clung to"

whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Is good always win?

Post by whynotme » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:06 pm

Yes, good always win

There is a sutta, wherein the Buddha said any good action leads to good result, and bad action leads to bad result, there is no grey.

But if you think good always win with your own eye then you are wrong. E.g lets say there is a war, the winner win by a vicious manner over the good side. From the flesh eye, the good loses, but from the Buddha's eye, the good always win. The good side lost because they did bad kamma in the past, while the winner side did good kamma in the past that leaded them to the pleasure of winning. On the other hand, the winner side also did bad kamma in the past that throw them in the situation that they need to do vicious actions in order to win. Also, by doing bad action to win war, that will lead to bad result in the future.

There are two cases:
1/ The winner needs to do vicious action, that is the only way to win, e.g. war in medieval time. That is the kamma of both sides.
2/ The winner doesn't need to do vicious action to win, but they still choose to do it. This is the bad kamma of the winner in the past, which leads them to the ignorance of the present, and the bad result in the future. Also the bad kamma of the losing side makes the winner side to choose vicious manner.

In the end, good always wins. But the result spans over eons, not in this very specific life. So if good loses, because good was bad in the past. It is extremely hard to judge kamma from the present because there were infinite number of lives and actions in the past. Hardly all of them good or exhausted totally.
Please stop following me

Lucem
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:19 pm

Re: Is good always win?

Post by Lucem » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:34 pm

The good side lost because they did bad kamma in the past, while the winner side did good kamma in the past that leaded them to the pleasure of winning.
Or they won because of good/bad/neutral kamma done in the present. Winning a war is more dependent on kamma done in the present (how you prepare to win it, how you fight, etc.) than dependent on kamma done in the past.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: Is good always win?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:04 pm

Immoral actions are always punished, are at least are punishments in and of themselves, if that's what you mean by "does good always win"
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5617
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Is good always win?

Post by Aloka » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:27 pm

I recommend reading "Who is pulling the strings" a little booklet by Ajahn Amaro -abbot of Amaravati Monastery UK.

excerpt from section 2, page 17:

‘IS THIS PRINCIPLE OF “KARMIC FATE” WHAT THE BUDDHA TAUGHT?’

If you look at the Buddha’s teachings, you’ll see that he spent a lot of time and energy trying to counteract the view that our lives are pre-determined by past karma; that what happens in our lives is fixed and unavoidable. It was a common view during his era, as now.

Continued at the link:

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... -Amaro.pdf
:anjali:

whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Is good always win?

Post by whynotme » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:47 pm

Lucem wrote:
The good side lost because they did bad kamma in the past, while the winner side did good kamma in the past that leaded them to the pleasure of winning.
Or they won because of good/bad/neutral kamma done in the present. Winning a war is more dependent on kamma done in the present (how you prepare to win it, how you fight, etc.) than dependent on kamma done in the past.
No, you are totally wrong

People are born by kamma, compares to countless lives, present action means nothing. If this present life is the ultimate decided factor, then how can there are military genius like Napoleon, why aren't other billions people good at military as him?

Because people are born by kamma, e.g. anyone good at anything because he spent many lives learning/ doing in that field. Lord Buddha spent countless lives to be a monk, so he was so good at what he was doing, and reach the level the world had never seen. Talent is the accumulation of multiple lives. No matter how much you, yes, you, Lucem, no matter how much effort you put into learning or working, you can never be Bill Gates, Steve Jobs,... etc in this specific life.

So try to prove your idea, by doing good things, e.g. prepare, learn, steal, lie, cheat, or whatever you can imagine, try to get rich and powerful as those people I mentioned. If you can not, then why? Why cant your present actions bring you to what you meant? Why doesnt your theory work?

Get rich, be powerful and winning battle are similar, because of their kamma. Those things are very hard to achieve, so if it is just the result of present action, then there will be millions Bill Gate, millions Steve Jobs, millions Napoleon... but that is not the reality we know.

If winning a war is the kamma of present, then LMAO, a rain can change the outcome of a battle, e.g. horse and calvary can not charge, a lucky arrow can kill a general, and change the whole war... Kamma makes people do mistake, miscalculation, creates favor conditions and times, makes people smart, choose the right decisions... People think it is my talent, its my preparation, it is my succession, no, people own nothing, but almost everything is just kamma, so the enlightened one is fed up of this world, because it is just a precise machine at work, nothing more.

LOL, your so naive. People are destinied to be king, leader, general... because of their kamma, that is the teaching of the Lord Buddha. Lord Buddha was predicted becoming a superior king or Lord Buddha. Of course, because of their kamma, destined people will be harder worker, smarter, more talented, more lucky, don't get accidents... No preparation can beat that, even supernatural power (mind reading,.. etc) can not beat kamma, (if anyone doesn't believe this, I invite you to try, by using supernatural power vs good kamma). The accumulation talent from multiple lives + good kamma, that is the deciding factor.

Even war is the kamma, death is the kamma, accident is the kamma, lucky is the kamma, winning lottery is kamma, to return what was done. If it was not their kamma, then how come people get extremely rich by winning lottery? By lucky? By random? Fool, that isn't the doctrine of Lord Buddha. He teaches that lucky is kamma.

Many Jews died in holocaust, was that because of their present kamma? What did they do wrongly in present time? There wasn't any actions that worth death in the present time. If they did not do evil actions in the past, there is no way their lives were captured like that. They were killed because they took other lives in the past, by body or by word or by agreement to killing or by joy in killing. So, the lives of soldiers on the battlefield are similar, if they did not do wrongly, there is no way they would be pushed to battlefield to be killed. But because those people did wrongly in the past, people like Hitler would appear, to return what was done wrongly.

Kamma is not 1 on 1, if that is the case then it is determinism. Good action spreads good kamma and bad action spreads bad kamma. Maybe only Lord Buddha or arahants know the path of specific kamma. So even when the Buddha clan ware killed, the Buddha and his followers all knew it would happen but they did nothing. They have superpower, they can read mind, alter material, they can read war plan or something similar, but they did not help, because they knew it would changed nothing. To your ordinary guys, those supernatural power is like fiction, and whatttt, I dont believe it, but FYI, powerful intelligence agencies are involved in those thing, e.g. Korean president is just the visible part of the iceberg.

But those pathetic fools, the more they get involved in supernatural power, the more they falls to the realm of Mara the Evil One, that is His goal, to bring people under his influence. Remember, nothing can win against kamma, that why the Buddha did not teach superpower, but only moral value, because supernatural power loses against good kamma everytime. Who spreads supernatural power, is the Mara and his followers, or under their influence. All other religions like Christian, Islam, Hinduism... seek mystical supernatural power, those all are under the influence of Mara the Master of Deception.

Yes, Mara and his followers will try to tell and convince people about the invisible world, and that supernatural power is the advantage, but the Buddha called Mara the Death for a reason. Which religion killed the most people? Yes, it is Christian, Islam, even Hinduism isn't better in poisoning people. Those religions are clearly the production of Mara, which is why the Buddha said he doesn't see anything that harder to overcome as the power of Mara. The God of Christian is said to be a jealous God, guess which one fits that description?

So come back to the story, the clan of the Lord Buddha lost the war. They were killed because of their past action, because no one can change their kamma when it comes. The Buddha knew it, no matter what they would do, they would be killed, because if he could save them, then he would have already done it. The Buddha knew Devadatta would betray him, but he also knew that it is still better for him to join the Shanga then go to hell than not joining the Shanga, even with knowing like that, he did not save his clan.
Please stop following me

SarathW
Posts: 8139
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is good always win?

Post by SarathW » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:04 pm

Hi Whynot me.
Interesting thoughts. I had similar ideas like this (fatalism) in the past.
Buddha did not teach fatalism.
He said that the effort in this life can change many things. (unless you have done heinous Kamma)
Kamma is operating with other Niyamas, not in isolation.
The question in OP is not about the Kamma.
:focus:
Last edited by SarathW on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: Is good always win?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:20 pm

whynotme wrote:
Lucem wrote:
The good side lost because they did bad kamma in the past, while the winner side did good kamma in the past that leaded them to the pleasure of winning.
Or they won because of good/bad/neutral kamma done in the present. Winning a war is more dependent on kamma done in the present (how you prepare to win it, how you fight, etc.) than dependent on kamma done in the past.
No, you are totally wrong

People are born by kamma, compares to countless lives, present action means nothing. If this present life is the ultimate decided factor, then how can there are military genius like Napoleon, why aren't other billions people good at military as him?

Because people are born by kamma, e.g. anyone good at anything because he spent many lives learning/ doing in that field. Lord Buddha spent countless lives to be a monk, so he was so good at what he was doing, and reach the level the world had never seen. Talent is the accumulation of multiple lives. No matter how much you, yes, you, Lucem, no matter how much effort you put into learning or working, you can never be Bill Gates, Steve Jobs,... etc in this specific life.

So try to prove your idea, by doing good things, e.g. prepare, learn, steal, lie, cheat, or whatever you can imagine, try to get rich and powerful as those people I mentioned. If you can not, then why? Why cant your present actions bring you to what you meant? Why doesnt your theory work?

Get rich, be powerful and winning battle are similar, because of their kamma. Those things are very hard to achieve, so if it is just the result of present action, then there will be millions Bill Gate, millions Steve Jobs, millions Napoleon... but that is not the reality we know.

If winning a war is the kamma of present, then LMAO, a rain can change the outcome of a battle, e.g. horse and calvary can not charge, a lucky arrow can kill a general, and change the whole war... Kamma makes people do mistake, miscalculation, creates favor conditions and times, makes people smart, choose the right decisions... People think it is my talent, its my preparation, it is my succession, no, people own nothing, but almost everything is just kamma, so the enlightened one is fed up of this world, because it is just a precise machine at work, nothing more.

LOL, your so naive. People are destinied to be king, leader, general... because of their kamma, that is the teaching of the Lord Buddha. Lord Buddha was predicted becoming a superior king or Lord Buddha. Of course, because of their kamma, destined people will be harder worker, smarter, more talented, more lucky, don't get accidents... No preparation can beat that, even supernatural power (mind reading,.. etc) can not beat kamma, (if anyone doesn't believe this, I invite you to try, by using supernatural power vs good kamma). The accumulation talent from multiple lives + good kamma, that is the deciding factor.

Even war is the kamma, death is the kamma, accident is the kamma, lucky is the kamma, winning lottery is kamma, to return what was done. If it was not their kamma, then how come people get extremely rich by winning lottery? By lucky? By random? Fool, that isn't the doctrine of Lord Buddha. He teaches that lucky is kamma.

Many Jews died in holocaust, was that because of their present kamma? What did they do wrongly in present time? There wasn't any actions that worth death in the present time. If they did not do evil actions in the past, there is no way their lives were captured like that. They were killed because they took other lives in the past, by body or by word or by agreement to killing or by joy in killing. So, the lives of soldiers on the battlefield are similar, if they did not do wrongly, there is no way they would be pushed to battlefield to be killed. But because those people did wrongly in the past, people like Hitler would appear, to return what was done wrongly.

Kamma is not 1 on 1, if that is the case then it is determinism. Good action spreads good kamma and bad action spreads bad kamma. Maybe only Lord Buddha or arahants know the path of specific kamma. So even when the Buddha clan ware killed, the Buddha and his followers all knew it would happen but they did nothing. They have superpower, they can read mind, alter material, they can read war plan or something similar, but they did not help, because they knew it would changed nothing. To your ordinary guys, those supernatural power is like fiction, and whatttt, I dont believe it, but FYI, powerful intelligence agencies are involved in those thing, e.g. Korean president is just the visible part of the iceberg.

But those pathetic fools, the more they get involved in supernatural power, the more they falls to the realm of Mara the Evil One, that is His goal, to bring people under his influence. Remember, nothing can win against kamma, that why the Buddha did not teach superpower, but only moral value, because supernatural power loses against good kamma everytime. Who spreads supernatural power, is the Mara and his followers, or under their influence. All other religions like Christian, Islam, Hinduism... seek mystical supernatural power, those all are under the influence of Mara the Master of Deception.

Yes, Mara and his followers will try to tell and convince people about the invisible world, and that supernatural power is the advantage, but the Buddha called Mara the Death for a reason. Which religion killed the most people? Yes, it is Christian, Islam, even Hinduism isn't better in poisoning people. Those religions are clearly the production of Mara, which is why the Buddha said he doesn't see anything that harder to overcome as the power of Mara. The God of Christian is said to be a jealous God, guess which one fits that description?

So come back to the story, the clan of the Lord Buddha lost the war. They were killed because of their past action, because no one can change their kamma when it comes. The Buddha knew it, no matter what they would do, they would be killed, because if he could save them, then he would have already done it. The Buddha knew Devadatta would betray him, but he also knew that it is still better for him to join the Shanga then go to hell than not joining the Shanga, even with knowing like that, he did not save his clan.
There is kamma produced in past lives. There is kamma produced in this life. Who is to say when kamma is to ripen? Who is to say what fruitions of negative kamma produce any given causal manifestation? I go blind tomorrow, let's say. Maybe in a past life I did X or Y terrible thing. Maybe last week I did X or Y terrible thing. Only the Buddha really understands the happenings of kamma on this kind of level.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests