The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:If one thinks that what one is clinging to is the actual external thing,
then one will never understand the teachings.

Only when one understands that the thing which one is clinging to is a
mind-fabricated object, can one begin to understand the teachings.
Well said. All formed "things" (i.e. sankhara) are dependent upon avijja.

To quote from Nanavira's entry on SANNA...
Nanavira Thera wrote:"Why, instead of telling us that things (dhamma) are impermanent and bound to disappear, should the Buddha takes us out of our way to let us know that things that things depend on are impermanent and bound to disappear? The answer is that the Dhamma does not set out to explain, but to lead - it is opanayika. This means that the Dhamma is not seeking disinterested intellectual approval, but to provoke an effort of comprehension or insight leading to the abandonment of attavada and eventually of asmimana. Its method is therefore necessarily indirect: we can only stop regarding this as 'self' if we see that what this depends on is impermanent."
Precisely what is meant by those bolded bits is worthy of pause and reflection.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: It is the "conventional", which is ontological and realist in its import, which became prominent in Buddhaghosa's expositions on paticcasamuppada, and it is the inapplicability of the "conventional" with respect to paticcasamuppada that Nanavira (and later Nanananda, and also to a lesser degree, Buddhadasa) brings to our attention for consideration.
Somewhat off topic, perhaps, but Ven Buddhadasa is not "later" than Ven Nanavira.

I don't know if Ajahn Buddhadasa commented on Ven Nanavira in later work, but the earliest Ajahn Buddhadasa material I have is Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree, which dates from 1962, and he'd been going for quite a while before that.

:anjali:
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by mikenz66 »

And here's some comments about Ajahns Buddhasa and Chah:
Ajahn Amaro wrote:The traditional presentation of [dependent origination] can be read in a couple of different ways: on the one level, the external, we are talking about the arrival in the world of a human being, the arising of dissatisfaction and its effects; the other approach is to regard it as a pattern referring to the psychological domain – a pattern we are experiencing within ourselves on a momentary basis. The first one is what you find in most of the classical scriptures and commentaries, they talk about this very much in an external way. But more recently some, particularly Ajahn Buddhadasa and Ajahn Chah in Thailand, have taken this formulation and pointed out, “Well, if we talk about this just as how suffering arises due to causes before this life, this doesn’t give us a very good tool for meditation or for transcending dukkha right here and now.”

Ajahn Buddhadasa spent many years analyzing this and explaining how one can regard this same process as occurring in a momentary pattern. He gives a very clear description of how our experience arises and how it can turn into suffering – and how we can break that cycle of recurring habits and transcend the suffering that we create. He has received quite a bit of flak for this from more ‘orthodox’ quarters but Ajahn Chah was very much taken by this approach towards understanding and using Dependent Origination, and this is what he used to teach himself.

The first type of interpretation is referred to as the ‘Three Life Theory,’ described as taking place over three life spans. The other is described as the ‘momentary.’ Ajahn Chah was very keen on the usefulness of it as a description of our momentary experience because, if one uses it in that way, it is a very immediate and powerful tool for working on our life and it shows us that our destiny, if you like, is not out of our grip. The first one tends to be more of a fatalistic interpretation.

http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article_print/1484/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

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A dude wrote remarks on Paticcasamupadda here:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
he says: Buddhaghosa also taught "that the structure of conditions is present not only in a multiple consciousness but also in each single consciousness as well" (see Dispeller of Delusion and also note 48 of Visuddhimagga). In the Visuddhimagga it is noted that the factor of resultant consciousness does not only refer to rebirth consciousness but also xvii 126 "in the course of an individual existence or continuity" There are several paragraphs about this.
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by pulga »

Viewed from its vertex outward a horizon presents itself as a line.

Here we have sixteen members, one corresponding to each operation (as before). If we go to still more complex representations of a thing (as indicated in §10) we shall get 64 members, and then 256 members, and so on, indefinitely. Note that any of these representations can—more strictly, though less conveniently—be written in one line, in which case there are no columns-and-rows; and we are then concerned throughout only with interchanges of symbols—singly and in pairs, in pairs of pairs and in pairs of pairs of pairs, and so on. (This, incidentally, throws light on the structure of a line; for we are taking advantage of the structure of a line to represent structure in general. The structure of the line—or, more exactly, of length—is seen when we superpose all the members of the representation.) FS Static Aspect ¶13
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Somewhat off topic, perhaps, but Ven Buddhadasa is not "later" than Ven Nanavira.
Correct. It's the vagaries of the English language at work there... I meant Nanananda later, Buddhadasa as well.

That said, I know that Buddhadasa originally taught dependent origination in accordance with tradition (something he later regretted), so I really don't know if his revisions occurred before, after, or around the same time.

Interesting observation about Ajahn Chah via Ajahn Amaro... I didn't know that. Thanks.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote:A dude wrote remarks on Paticcasamupadda here:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
he says: Buddhaghosa also taught "that the structure of conditions is present not only in a multiple consciousness but also in each single consciousness as well" (see Dispeller of Delusion and also note 48 of Visuddhimagga). In the Visuddhimagga it is noted that the factor of resultant consciousness does not only refer to rebirth consciousness but also xvii 126 "in the course of an individual existence or continuity" There are several paragraphs about this.
Yes, I quoted note 48 here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p167400" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it's an interesting question to pursue the relationships between various 20th C teachers/scholars and how "original" anyone actually is. Clearly, from the evidence of the old texts, many of these ideas have been around a long time.

They have been variously emphasised independently by various modern teachers, such as Ajahns Buddhadasa and Chah, as I noted above.

Can you summarise what Dispeller of Delusion says? Unfortunately the Visuddhimagga passages are extremely hard to read. This may be a matter of the relatively old translation.
Visuddhimagga wrote:XVII 126. After knowing what kind of consciousness has what formations as its
condition, one should now understand how it occurs as follows.
[(2) The Occurrence of Resultant Consciousness]
Now, this resultant consciousness all occurs in two ways, namely, (a) in the
course of an individual existence (or continuity), and (b) at the rebirth-linking
[moment].
Herein, there are the two fivefold consciousnesses ((34)–(38) and (50)–(54)),
two mind elements ((39) and (55)), and root-causeless mind-consciousness
element accompanied by joy (40), that is, thirteen which occur only in the course
of an existence in the five-constituent kind of becoming.20 The remaining nineteen
occur in the three kinds of becoming, either in the course of an existence or at
rebirth-linking, as appropriate. How?

[2. (a) In the Course of an Existence]
127. Firstly, in one who has been reborn by means of either profitable-result or
unprofitable result: according as his faculties mature, so the five profitable-
resultant eye-, etc., consciousnesses occur accomplishing the respective functions
of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching ((d)–(h)), contingent respectively
upon a desirable or desirable-neutral visible datum, etc., as object that has come
into the focus of the eye, etc., and having the sensitivity of the eye, etc., as [material]
support. And likewise the five unprofitable-resultant consciousnesses; the only
difference being this, that the visible data, etc., as object for these are undesirable
or undesirable-neutral. And these ten are invariable as to their door, object,
physical basis, and position [in the cognitive series], and invariable as to their
functions.

128. After that, next to the profitable-resultant eye-, etc., consciousness, the
profitable-resultant mind element (39) occurs accomplishing the function of
receiving (i), contingent upon the same object as that of the former, and having
the heart-basis as support. [547] And next after the unprofitable-resultant eye-,
etc., consciousness, the unprofitable-resultant mind element (55) occurs likewise.
But these two, while variable as to door and object, are invariable as to physical
basis and position, and invariable as to function.

129. Then next to the profitable-resultant mind element, the root-causeless
mind-consciousness element accompanied by joy (40) occurs accomplishing
the function of investigation (j), contingent upon the same object as that of the
mind element, and having the heart-basis as support. And when the object is a
vivid one in any of the six doors belonging to sense-sphere beings, usually at
the end of impulsions associated with greed it holds up the [renewal of the]
course of the life-continuum (b) by occurring either once or twice as registration
(m), having the same object as that apprehended by the impulsions—so it is said
in the Majjhima Commentary.21 But in the Abhidhamma Commentary two turns
of consciousness have been handed down with respect to registration. This
consciousness has two names, “registration” (tad-árammaóa—lit. having that object
that the preceding impulsions had) and “aftermath life-continuum” (piþþhi-
bhavaòga—see XIV
.122). It is variable as to door and object, it is invariable as to
physical basis, and it is variable as to position and function.
This, in the first place, it should be understood, is how thirteen kinds of
consciousness occur only in the course of an individual existence in the five-
constituent kind of becoming

130. As to the remaining nineteen ((41)–(49) and (56)–(65)), there is none that
does not occur as a rebirth-linking (a) appropriate to it (see §133). But in the
course of an individual existence, firstly, two, namely, profitable-resultant and
unprofitable-resultant root-causeless mind-consciousness elements ((41) and
(56)) occur accomplishing four functions, that is to say, the function of investigating
in the five doors (j) next after profitable-resultant and unprofitable-resultant
mind element, the function of registration (m) in the six doors in the way already
stated, the function of life-continuum (b) that continues after rebirth-linking given
by themselves, as long as there is no thought-arising to interrupt the life-
continuum, and lastly the function of death (n) at the end [of the course of an
existence]. And so these two are invariable as to [possession of heart-] basis, and
variable as to door, object, position, and function.

131. The eight sense-sphere consciousnesses with root-cause ((42)–(49)) occur
accomplishing three functions, namely, the function of registration (m) in the six
doors in the way already stated, the function of life-continuum (b) after rebirth-
linking given by themselves, as long as there is no thought-arising to interrupt
the life-continuum, and lastly the function of death (n) at the end. And they are
invariable as to [possession of heart-] basis, and variable as to door, position,
and function.

132. The five fine-material consciousnesses ((57)–(61)) and the four immaterial
consciousnesses ((62)–(65)) occur accomplishing two functions, namely, the
function of life-continuum (b) that continues after rebirth-linking given by
themselves, as long as there is no thought-arising to interrupt the life-continuum,
and the function of death (n) at the end. As regards these, those of the fine-
material sphere are invariable as to [possession of heart-]basis and as to their
object, and they are variable as to position and function, while the others occur
invariably without [heart-] basis, and they are invariable as to object, and variable
as to position and function.

This, in the first place, is how the thirty-twofold resultant consciousness occurs
in the course of an individual existence with formations as condition. And there
[in the course of an existence] these several formations are conditions, as kamma
condition and decisive-support condition, for this [thirty-twofold resultant
consciousness]. [548]

Footnotes:
20. For five-constituent becoming, etc., see §§253–54. “Unprofitable resultant eye-
consciousness, etc. sometimes arise even in Brahmás when undesirable visible data,
etc., come into focus” (Vism-mhþ 604); cf. §180.
21. This refers to the old Sinhalese commentary no longer extant.
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

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retrofuturist wrote: That said, I know that Buddhadasa originally taught dependent origination in accordance with tradition (something he later regretted), so I really don't know if his revisions occurred before, after, or around the same time.
That's why I mentioned his 1962 lectures, which you can read on-line http://what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Bhi ... o_Tree.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Buddhadasa wrote: The Buddha taught that if we live rightly, just live in the right way, then the earth will not be empty of arahants. This is called practising according to the principle of the Paticca­samuppada. It is the kind of right living by which defilements cannot arise, the seeing of "I" and "mine" as mere illusion, due to the fact that they only arise when sense-contact gives rise to feeling, which develops into craving. If the development of craving is avoided clinging to "I" and "mine" does not take place. Therefore, you should understand correctly that "I" and "mine" is a product of confection, it’s not real. It's an illusion in the same way as a wave that arises due to the blowing of the wind is an illusion. The water is real and the wind is real, but the wave is an illusion. This is to compare it with a material phenomenon, and the com­parison is not perfect. It is meant merely to indicate the illusoriness of a wave that arises due to confection-the wind blows across the water, and a ridge of water arises and then disappears. The feeling of "I" and "mine" that arises over and over in a day is like a wave. The water of the sense-experience is contacted by the wind of delusion or ignorance and waves of "I" and "mine" are formed over and over throughout the day. A single emergence of the feeling of "I" and "mine" is called one jati, one birth.
I doubt Ven Nanavira had any significant impact on anyone outside a relatively small circle (which happens to include teachers accessible to Westerners).

Does anyone know whether Ven Nananada had read Ven Nanavira's work in the 60s when he was still an academic and developing Concept and Reality?
retrofuturist wrote: Interesting observation about Ajahn Chah via Ajahn Amaro... I didn't know that.
:anjali:
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I think it's an interesting question to pursue the relationships between various 20th C teachers/scholars and how "original" anyone actually is. Clearly, from the evidence of the old texts, many of these ideas have been around a long time.
Be careful though, that just because Buddhaghosa may have expressed some awareness of alternatives other than the primary model he spear-headed in the Visuddhimagga, what you quote above still bears no relation whatsoever to how Nanavira taught dependent origination. Moreover, there is much in that section quoted above he would explicitly reject.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, I quoted note 48 here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p167400" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good old Ven Nanamoli -- a far more reliable interpreter.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I think it's an interesting question to pursue the relationships between various 20th C teachers/scholars and how "original" anyone actually is. Clearly, from the evidence of the old texts, many of these ideas have been around a long time.
Be careful though, that just because Buddhaghosa may have expressed some awareness of alternatives other than the primary model he spear-headed in the Visuddhimagga, what you quote above still bears no relation whatsoever to how Nanavira taught dependent origination. Moreover, there is much in that section quoted above he would explicitly reject.
Of course. Ven Nanavira has some details (which I don't claim to be able to really understand) that differ from other modern and ancient teachers. As one would expect!

My overall point is simply that there are various interpretations developed by a number of teachers and scholars and in that sense Ven Nanavira is by no means unique in the overall scheme of things. Whether one thinks that the detailed differences between his views and the views of others have much significance is, clearly, a matter of opinion.

:anjali:
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:My overall point is simply that there are various interpretations developed by a number of teachers and scholars and in that sense Ven Nanavira is by no means unique in the overall scheme of things. Whether one thinks that the detailed differences between his views and the views of others have much significance is, clearly, a matter of opinion.
A fair assessment. Furthermore, if someone is satisfied with the traditional three-life interpretation, then Nanavira Thera explicitly acknowledges that the NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPADA is not for them...
Nanavira Thera wrote:This Note will take for granted first, that the reader is acquainted with this traditional interpretation, and secondly, that he is dissatisfied with it.
mikenz66 wrote:Does anyone know whether Ven Nananada had read Ven Nanavira's work in the 60s when he was still an academic and developing Concept and Reality?
No, but I'll keep an eye out. I'd also be interested in how much of Nananada's understanding was passed on from his teacher, and how much was his own discovery (as that has chronological implications too)... but that would be another topic.
mikenz66 wrote:I doubt Ven Nanavira had any significant impact on anyone outside a relatively small circle (which happens to include teachers accessible to Westerners).
This was certainly true of the time, as is apparent from his Letters where the publication of, and lack of reception to his Notes is discussed. Since then, Nanavira's works have progressively, yet undisputedly, played a significant role in Theravada's dependent origination diaspora.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Perhaps we need to talk more about the implications of these alternative
interpretations of Dependent Origination.

IF, when ignorance ceases all the other links cease, and IF this is
understood to be a description of enlightenment, THEN what follows
from that?

One obvious result is that this is sudden enlightenment with no stages.
How does that fit with the rest of the teachings?

It could also be gradual, but again, there would be no clear stages.

Bang goes the four (or eight) noble persons.

And the closely related doctrine of five lower, and five higher fetters.

This is just one example of many such "problems".

Does this mean that such an interpretation must be wrong, or that most of
the rest of the teachings are wrong?

I think that we need to ask, of any particular doctrine, who is it intended
for?

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:IF, when ignorance ceases all the other links cease, and IF this is
understood to be a description of enlightenment, THEN what follows
from that?

One obvious result is that this is sudden enlightenment with no stages.
How does that fit with the rest of the teachings?
For the puthujjana there is avijja, for the arahant there is vijja – that much is simple. However, your conclusion assumes a static framing of avijja and its cessation, and allows for no in-between.

In contrast, I would suggest that the sekha who has entered the stream can, at any point in time, view with either avijja or vijja, and hence, effort must continue to be exerted to eradicate the tendency towards avijja, even in its subtlest forms. This makes avijja/vijja a dynamic representation of present awareness, rather than a determination that a certain person is absolutely ignorant or absolutely not.

The degrees here accommodate the "five lower, and five higher fetters" you raise here in your post. A taste of vijja is sufficient to eradicate the lower fetters... the higher fetters however require the eradication of unwholesome tendencies (anusaya) which are not obliterated with stream-entry. However, the stream is by that state entered, and the wisdom gained is necessarily built upon, through concern for one's welfare and knowledge of the way. This is the training that the trainee (sekha) undergoes.

For Nanavira's take on some of these shades involved seen his note on MAMA.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Post by vinasp »

Hi Retro,

Yes. I agree with your first two paragraphs. My post was not as clear as it
could have been. I should have described the sudden cessation of ignorance
first, and then described the gradual alternative.

I do not think we should get into a discussion about the fetters at this stage.

For me, a more interesting topic, would be how the five clinging aggregates
relate to Dependent Origination. Any thoughts?

Regards, Vincent.
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