about the 5th precept

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chownah
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by chownah » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:40 am

Perhaps a secondary consideration is how our taking of a beverage or drug influences others to do the same....especially very young and impressionable people.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:33 pm

good points winddancer and chownah. i never thought of framing the narrative in such a way; i actually had to go out of my way to do some weed, and even tho i'd done plenty of it before this was possibly the worst high of all time. curiosity is one of my biggest downfalls, or idleness
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— Ud 5.5

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Maitri
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by Maitri » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:41 am

I think that too many in the West get wrapped up in fitting the rules to themselves in a legalism borrowed from Christianity. The majority of Buddhists in the West are lay people and don't have to live the strict moral life of monastics. The rules aren't for punishment like the Mosaic law, but to train ourselves to develop greater wisdom and compassion.

Yes, the precepts do not permit intoxicants and coming from the Buddha we can have total confidence that following this precept is the best way to live. However, we can also relax a bit about the 5th precept and see it as training tools which lead to deeper insight and confidence in the Dhamma. Of course, I'm not talking about becoming drunk, stoned, or smashed all the time, but enjoying a glass of wine or a beer with friends isn't going to ruin our practice.
"Upon a heap of rubbish in the road-side ditch blooms a lotus, fragrant and pleasing.
Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom." Dhammapada: Pupphavagga

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by BasementBuddhist » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:09 am

Maitri wrote:I think that too many in the West get wrapped up in fitting the rules to themselves in a legalism borrowed from Christianity. The majority of Buddhists in the West are lay people and don't have to live the strict moral life of monastics. The rules aren't for punishment like the Mosaic law, but to train ourselves to develop greater wisdom and compassion.

Yes, the precepts do not permit intoxicants and coming from the Buddha we can have total confidence that following this precept is the best way to live. However, we can also relax a bit about the 5th precept and see it as training tools which lead to deeper insight and confidence in the Dhamma. Of course, I'm not talking about becoming drunk, stoned, or smashed all the time, but enjoying a glass of wine or a beer with friends isn't going to ruin our practice.
:goodpost:

The Buddha taught his students to think. Not to blindly obey. There are no sins. Only action and intention that leads to progression on the Path, or that hinders it. If you wish to preform an action weigh the consequences and commit. You don't have to justify it. Things happen. Those things have consequences. The path is only "sacred" in so far as it eliminates dissatisfaction. No justification required.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:20 am

no i mean one can literally go to hell so its not worth sitting there and trying to decide what u can get away with or when. that kind of liberalism is toxic to the discourse
what basis do you have for saying enjoying alcohol (poison) 'occasionally' is not a hindrance? it's not even the drink itself as much as the mindset that allows such to happen. besides, anyone who enjoys a drink 'once in a while' without wanting it again and again -- or immediately realizing it is a toxic chemical -- is frankly lucky
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Mkoll
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by Mkoll » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:58 am

Dhammomhi wrote:if this has been covered
Yes, but no worries. Drugs will continue to be brought up ad infinitum on this forum alongside threads about rebirth, anatta, Nibbana, Mahayana vs. Theravada, and vegetarianism.

Am I missing anything? :lol:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:11 am

not really... i'm just so excited about my discoveries
if i didnt already say this i think using acid was a distraction that i've since recovered from
may all living beings be happy
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Maitri
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by Maitri » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:20 pm

Dhammomhi wrote:not really... i'm just so excited about my discoveries
if i didnt already say this i think using acid was a distraction that i've since recovered from
may all living beings be happy

Pfft, acid. I'm drunk on Kombucha right now
Image
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mvx4 ... mbucha-511
"Upon a heap of rubbish in the road-side ditch blooms a lotus, fragrant and pleasing.
Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom." Dhammapada: Pupphavagga

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:34 am

gross
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

chownah
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by chownah » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:25 am

Maitri wrote:
Dhammomhi wrote:not really... i'm just so excited about my discoveries
if i didnt already say this i think using acid was a distraction that i've since recovered from
may all living beings be happy

Pfft, acid. I'm drunk on Kombucha right now
Image
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mvx4 ... mbucha-511
I think that this is just about equivalent to saying that the wine in the sacrament in the communion ritual at the catholic church is equivalent to rampant unabashed alcoholism.
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dylanj
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by dylanj » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:41 am

Maitri wrote:I think that too many in the West get wrapped up in fitting the rules to themselves in a legalism borrowed from Christianity. The majority of Buddhists in the West are lay people and don't have to live the strict moral life of monastics. The rules aren't for punishment like the Mosaic law, but to train ourselves to develop greater wisdom and compassion.

Yes, the precepts do not permit intoxicants and coming from the Buddha we can have total confidence that following this precept is the best way to live. However, we can also relax a bit about the 5th precept and see it as training tools which lead to deeper insight and confidence in the Dhamma. Of course, I'm not talking about becoming drunk, stoned, or smashed all the time, but enjoying a glass of wine or a beer with friends isn't going to ruin our practice.

Yes it will, unvirtuous & unskillful action will ruin our practice, virtue & the 5 precepts are the most basic standard expected of Buddhists & there is no reason they should not be undertaken. They are wholesome, their results are wholesome. Breaking them is unwholesome & so is its results.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:22 am

wikipedia lists two drugs i'm struggling with currently: nicotine and caffeine. as psychoactive drugs; what are this forum's thoughts? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_drug
i'm not in a state where i can easily get CBD, the purportedly non-psychoactive part of the cannabis plant, so it doesn't matter right now; i struggle with chronic back pain from a spinal fusion so i wondered if it would be acceptable if i used that. not in the sense 'ehh..., not so bad' but actually 'this is in line with the fifth precept'. i'm also seeing some debate over whether it is or not http://herb.co/2017/03/24/cbd-psychoactive/
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

chownah
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by chownah » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:00 am

maranadhammomhi wrote:
Maitri wrote:I think that too many in the West get wrapped up in fitting the rules to themselves in a legalism borrowed from Christianity. The majority of Buddhists in the West are lay people and don't have to live the strict moral life of monastics. The rules aren't for punishment like the Mosaic law, but to train ourselves to develop greater wisdom and compassion.

Yes, the precepts do not permit intoxicants and coming from the Buddha we can have total confidence that following this precept is the best way to live. However, we can also relax a bit about the 5th precept and see it as training tools which lead to deeper insight and confidence in the Dhamma. Of course, I'm not talking about becoming drunk, stoned, or smashed all the time, but enjoying a glass of wine or a beer with friends isn't going to ruin our practice.

Yes it will, unvirtuous & unskillful action will ruin our practice, virtue & the 5 precepts are the most basic standard expected of Buddhists & there is no reason they should not be undertaken. They are wholesome, their results are wholesome. Breaking them is unwholesome & so is its results.
I'm wondering what your ideas are about what makes something unvirtuous and more specifically what is virtue and does this come from the buddha's teachings....or not.
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chownah
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by chownah » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:07 am

enjoying a glass of wine or a beer with friends isn't going to ruin our practice.
I can't talk about your practice but I gave up a glass of wine or a beer with friends because at a certain point I began to see that that amount of alcohol did have a detrimental effect on my practice. I don't know if it was me becoming more sensitive to alcohol because of my practice or if it was because I went without alcohol long enough to become sensitive to its effects or if it was just a sensitivity which arose due to my body getting older.....but the fact is I could clearly see the negative effects of even one beer on my practice.
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massara
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Re: about the 5th precept

Post by massara » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:46 pm

Well, if you want to drink, have hallucinations and enjoy sensual pleasures, go ahead and tell us how you intend to reach at least Anagami stage...
If all you want is just to live a better and peaceful life, that`s fine, but if what you want is to reach Nibbana, then you must follow the 5th precept and give up all these things.

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