"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:57 am

rowyourboat wrote:I would like to ask the gentlemen here to consider that jhanas (the absorbed type) can arise from both samatha AND vipassana. Sati leads to samadhi. The presence or absence of panna is the difference. I have yet to meet a dry vipassana master who wasn't able to give rise to jhana. There IS only jhana mentioned in the suttas - without the 'samatha' or 'vipassana' qualification.

With metta

Matheesha
Quite frankly sometimes this obsessive focus on jhana tends to be a distraction. While jhana may be for some something fairly easily achieved, for most lay folks, if it is not out of reach, it is very difficult.

What the Burmese vipassana tradition recognizes is that, at least for the attainment of sotapanna, the level of concentration involved is far more accessible and does not require the preoccupation with all the bits a pieces of "attainment" that seems occupy the jhanika's efforts.

An interesting point, however, is that while there are dangers in the vipassana practice, the dangers of jhana practice, especially on one's own, are far greater and far more insidious.
There IS only jhana mentioned in the suttas
That is not quite so, as has been pointed out by any number of others here at length.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:22 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:There IS only jhana mentioned in the suttas
That is not quite so, as has been pointed out by any number of others here at length.
Except that by cutting RYB's sentence in half, I think you missed the point it was making.

The need for "vipassana jhanas" only arose because the commentarial tradition shifted the sutta jhanas to "samatha jhanas". In other words, it's a counterpoint, a reaction intended to balance an earlier offset.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:24 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:There IS only jhana mentioned in the suttas
That is not quite so, as has been pointed out by any number of others here at length.
Except that by cutting RYB's sentence in half, I think you missed the point it was making.

The need for "vipassana jhanas" only arose because the commentarial tradition shifted the sutta jhanas to "samatha jhanas". In other words, it's a counterpoint, a reaction intended to balance an earlier offset.

Metta,
Retro. :)
It does not change anything.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Alex123
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Alex123 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:29 pm

Hello all,

Does the actual moment of insight into, lets say, "Rise and Fall" has to come together with a thought about Rise&Fall? Or is the insight non-verbal, non-conceptual?


With best wishes,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by beeblebrox » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:44 pm

Thoughts rise and fall too. How do we view this? Is it with another thought? If so, how and where did this thought rise from? And how did it rise at the exact right moment just so you could use it to label another thought falling? Those are just few things to think about.

This is probably the main reason why we start with body to establish our mindfulness... it's less confusing that way.

:anjali:

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Alex123 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:49 pm

Hello Beeblebrox,

So what you are saying is that insight into Rise & Fall doesn't have to use thoughts?

Is it the same with any other insight, that concomitant thought is not-needed for actual insight to occur?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:09 pm

Alex123 wrote:Hello Beeblebrox,

So what you are saying is that insight into Rise & Fall doesn't have to use thoughts?

Is it the same with any other insight, that concomitant thought is not-needed for actual insight to occur?
What has been your experience?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Alex123 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Hello Beeblebrox,

So what you are saying is that insight into Rise & Fall doesn't have to use thoughts?

Is it the same with any other insight, that concomitant thought is not-needed for actual insight to occur?
What has been your experience?

I am not qualified to answer that with all certainty, for my experiences were very limited and I don't want to overestimate my experience.


As I understand what Comenterial Abh says (and perhaps suttas say indirectly) is that "thought about something" occurs always after the event it tries to describe. This also fits the commonsense experience that thought about something always happens just after (even if split second later) than the actual experience.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by beeblebrox » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:36 pm

Well... I think that thoughts are necessary in the beginning, as long as they're appropriate (vitakka and vicara, initial thought and its application). I'm not sure if there's some confusion in between thoughts and citta. (I've never read abhidhammas.)

I don't really feel comfortable bringing my own experience into it, either. It's not that useful. I think that the best that we can do is just to share notes on what our understanding of the Dhamma is, and then trust each other to reconcile them with whatever our applications might be.

:anjali:

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Nyana » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:29 pm

retrofuturist wrote:The need for "vipassana jhanas" only arose because the commentarial tradition shifted the sutta jhanas to "samatha jhanas". In other words, it's a counterpoint, a reaction intended to balance an earlier offset.
Yes, the suttanta usage of singleness of mind and jhāna has a wider application and is more inclusive than samatha jhāna.

All the best,

Geoff

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Alex123 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:10 pm

Hello Geoff,

Do I understand correctly the argument against samatha jhāna being that one can't have insight in the jhāna itself?

Why not? If Insight does not require concomitant thought, then why someone can't have direct insight while in samatha jhāna, and think about the insight and what it means only after emergence from samatha jhāna?

With metta,
Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:52 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote: So yes, without sammasati the other links cannot occur, but without sammasamadhi, so too the remaining links cannot occur.
The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?
One way to view this would be to say ' enough samadhi for the breath to disintegrate into bodily sensations inside the nostrils, and then for those sensation to disintegrate into the elements, which can be seen to rapidly arise and pass away.

'Object' (external world) --> sensation (sense base) --> elements (dhathu).

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by Nyana » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:16 am

Alex123 wrote:Do I understand correctly the argument against samatha jhāna being that one can't have insight in the jhāna itself?
Well, the common understanding of commentarial Theravāda is that insight cannot occur within samatha jhāna. But as I've often discovered, the "common understanding" of commentarial Theravāda can be incomplete or misleading, failing to account for the full picture as found in the canonical, para-canonical, and post-canonical sources.

I haven't done a complete survey of all commentarial sources on this subject (it would require reading all of the relevant Aṭṭhakathā & Tīkā texts). But from what I have read it seems that there can be insight within samatha jhāna, but one still has to emerge from that meditative attainment prior to entering supramundane jhāna. This subject deserves further textual research, including a comparison with Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma sources.
Alex123 wrote:Why not? If Insight does not require concomitant thought, then why someone can't have direct insight while in samatha jhāna, and think about the insight and what it means only after emergence from samatha jhāna?
This is accurate and accords with the canonical sources.

All the best,

Geoff

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:22 am

Ñāṇa wrote: I haven't done a complete survey of all commentarial sources on this subject (it would require reading all of the relevant Aṭṭhakathā & Tīkā texts
And the question is: do you read Pali at that level?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:24 am

rowyourboat wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote: So yes, without sammasati the other links cannot occur, but without sammasamadhi, so too the remaining links cannot occur.
The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?
One way to view this would be to say ' enough samadhi for the breath to disintegrate into bodily sensations inside the nostrils, and then for those sensation to disintegrate into the elements, which can be seen to rapidly arise and pass away.

'Object' (external world) --> sensation (sense base) --> elements (dhathu).
That may be one way of doing practice, but there are others.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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