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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:58 am
by Mr Man
Goofaholix wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile:
Absolutely!

That's exactly what a reatreat is for, to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other.
As I understand that is not the purpose of a retreat in the Goenka sub-tradition. As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:16 am
by Goofaholix
Brizzy wrote:As far as what is a suitable retreat environment, we need look no further than the sutta's...
For the first sutta if you look 2 paragraphs down you'll see this;
"Certainly, Master Ananda, the Bamboo Grove is delightful, quiet, free of noise, with an air of isolation, remote from human beings, & appropriate for retreat because of venerable ones who are endowed with mental absorption (jhana), who make mental absorption their habit. You venerable ones are both endowed with mental absorption & make mental absorption your habit."
So this recommendation is for those who wish to practise mental absorption (jhana), and for that of course the more prefect and quiet and sublime the conditions the better. Remember, though, that Goenka teaches insight meditation for which quiet and perfect conditions are not necessary.

Now if you have a natural ability for that, or have a few months or years to spare, or perfect conditions then I'd say go for it, otherwise better to work on insight which is the topic of this thread.

The end of the first paragraph of the second quote ends with;
"Now tell us, sir, the practice:
the code of discipline & concentration."
Reading through the quote it's obvious the code of discipline refers to the monks vinaya as the passage is very oriented towards monks, and of course it mentions concentration there also, aka mental absorption (jhana). So yes if you want to cultivate concentration a monks life would be a good one, but I'm not sure you can make all that happen with a 10 day retreat which is why most retreats are insight meditation oriented.

Of course it's true that insight and concentration go hand in hand and developing one leads to the other but it's only if you want to develop jhana that idyllic conditions are needed I think.

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:17 am
by tiltbillings
Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:29 am
by Ben
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?
What Mr Man is referring to is during the preliminary formalities, SN Goenka asks students to "surrender to the current teacher". Surrender is explained that one merely does as instructed. Leaving aside any previous practices and devoting oneself exclusively to the practice of Vipassana as taught by SN Goenka for the period of ten days. But surrender is not the point of a ten-day course. The point of a ten-day course is to learn and develop some depth of experience in sila (five precepts), samadhi (samatha variant of anapana-sati) and panna (vipassana via vedananupassana).
kind regards,

Ben

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
by Mr Man
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?
My point is that the rationalization given is outside of the scope of the technique.

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:26 pm
by Goofaholix
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?
My point is that the rationalization given is outside of the scope of the technique.
So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"? I think you'd better pay more attention to the instructions.

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:21 pm
by Mr Man
Goofaholix wrote: So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"? I think you'd better pay more attention to the instructions.
Do you mean the Goenka technique?

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:27 pm
by mikenz66
Goofaholix wrote: So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"?
That's certainly the message I heard on a Goenka retreat...

Juuuusssstttt Obbbbseeerrrrvveeeee..... :meditate:

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:40 pm
by Goofaholix
Mr Man wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"? I think you'd better pay more attention to the instructions.
Do you mean the Goenka technique?
Indeed.

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:55 pm
by Mr Man
Goofaholix wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"? I think you'd better pay more attention to the instructions.
Do you mean the Goenka technique?
Indeed.
Well I have only done retreats with Mother Sayama / Saya U Chit Tin (from the U Ba Khin tradition) and it was some time ago but as I remember it the teaching was Anapana Sati and the sweeping technique. As I remember it there wasn't really much work with mental states going on. The observation was always very active rather than passive and the focus was very much towards body sensations.

Not sure if there was a hidden teaching for "advanced" students.

:)

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:01 pm
by mikenz66
Didn't they say to regard the vedana with equanimity? That's what goofaholix and I are taking from it.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:04 pm
by Goofaholix
Mr Man wrote:The observation was always very active rather than passive and the focus was very much towards body sensations.
Were some of those body sensations pleasant? some unpleasant? some neutral? and were you instructed to observe without reactivity?

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:23 pm
by Mr Man
Goofaholix wrote:Were some of those body sensations pleasant? some unpleasant? some neutral? and were you instructed to observe without reactivity?
If we go back to the beginning of the thread it was about a mental reaction to chanting. Now possibly the advice given about learning from aversion etc. is good but I'm not sure if it is in line with the technique or with the advice that would be given on a course. As I said in my previous post there didn't seem to be much work with mental states going on.

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:45 pm
by Goofaholix
Mr Man wrote:If we go back to the beginning of the thread it was about a mental reaction to chanting. Now possibly the advice given about learning from aversion etc. is good but I'm not sure if it is in line with the technique or with the advice that would be given on a course. As I said in my previous post there didn't seem to be much work with mental states going on.
You're right there isn't much work with mental states with this technique, but there is a lot of work with vedana or feeling.

In the scheme of things feeling is not mental states and it is not body, it's part way between.

When something you don't like happens do you feel an unpleasant sensations in the body? when something you like happens do you feel pleasant sensations in the body? This is the technique.

Now just apply it when you are listening to chanting but would rather be in concentrated bliss, it's not just a story about chanting and me not wanting it but there are unpleasant sensations in the body, this is what you need to observe and not react to.

Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:55 pm
by Ben
Goofaholix wrote:
Mr Man wrote:If we go back to the beginning of the thread it was about a mental reaction to chanting. Now possibly the advice given about learning from aversion etc. is good but I'm not sure if it is in line with the technique or with the advice that would be given on a course. As I said in my previous post there didn't seem to be much work with mental states going on.
You're right there isn't much work with mental states with this technique, but there is a lot of work with vedana or feeling.

In the scheme of things feeling is not mental states and it is not body, it's part way between.

When something you don't like happens do you feel an unpleasant sensations in the body? when something you like happens do you feel pleasant sensations in the body? This is the technique.

Now just apply it when you are listening to chanting but would rather be in concentrated bliss, it's not just a story about chanting and me not wanting it but there are unpleasant sensations in the body, this is what you need to observe and not react to.
Actually, vedanas do correspond very closely with mental states. By observing vedana one is indirectly observing mind. By not reacting with craving and aversion to vedana and observing with objective equanimity one is changing the way one relates to oneself and the world around us.
kind regards,

Ben