Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Nana Wrote :
Without sufficient common ground for discussion there isn't much possibility of meaningful dialogue


Agree, lets stop this discussion on this note.

Metta

Parth
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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by kirk5a »

parth wrote: So why do this.
Why define anything? Not so we can have a gilded definition to worship. So it can be found, that's why.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Trying to define can help find it ? this one really makes me laugh. No offences meant though :jumping:

Metta

Parth
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

Yeah, that silly Gotama, going to such lengths to explain nibbana to us, what a waste of time that was!
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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by kirk5a »

parth wrote:Trying to define can help find it ? this one really makes me laugh. No offences meant though :jumping:

Metta

Parth
What is your explanation for the Buddha telling us the Third Noble Truth?

It wasn't for comic relief.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

Ñāṇa wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:the unconditioned can't be defined
parth wrote:the unconditioned can't be defined
It's the reification of "The Unconditioned" which leads to these appeals of ineffability. But this has been discussed previously at length.

All the best,

Geoff
Hardly Geoff,

Your stance of defining nibbana in terms of simply saying it is the absence of lobha, dosa, moha and denying anything beyond, unwittingly assumes the non-existence of an unconditioned...and with that, the (non) experience of the unconditioned which this thread is about. But that kind of definition is, ofcourse, good enough in terms of personal practice. Better to say there is something unconditioned, which is not definable in terms of existing or not existing and leave it at that.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

rowyourboat wrote:Your stance of defining nibbana in terms of simply saying it is the absence of lobha, dosa, moha and denying anything beyond, unwittingly assumes the non-existence of an unconditioned...and with that, the (non) experience of the unconditioned which this thread is about. But that kind of definition is, ofcourse, good enough in terms of personal practice. Better to say there is something unconditioned, which is not definable in terms of existing or not existing and leave it at that.
An "unconditioned" what? And where is it and, if there where no ariya, would there still be an "unconditioned?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

rowyourboat wrote:unwittingly assumes the non-existence of an unconditioned
Not really. Just a different idea of what exactly "unconditioned" means. It may imply non-existence when viewed in your terms, but not on it's own terms, due to underlying fundamental differences about how this all works.
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

rowyourboat wrote:Your stance of defining nibbana in terms of simply saying it is the absence of lobha, dosa, moha and denying anything beyond,
I don't have a "stance." I follow the dhamma expounded in the canon. SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta (1-44 combined & abridged):
  • And what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaṅkhata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-fabricated.

    And what, monks, is the not-inclined (anata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-inclined.

    And what, monks, is the outflowless (anāsava)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the outflowless.

    And what, monks, is the truth (sacca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the truth.

    And what, monks, is the farther shore (pāra)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the farther shore.

    And what, monks, is the subtle (nipuṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the subtle.

    And what, monks, is the very hard to see (sududdasa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the very hard to see.

    And what, monks, is the unaging (ajajjara)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unaging.

    And what, monks, is the stable (dhuva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the stable.

    And what, monks, is the undisintegrating (apalokita)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the undisintegrating.

    And what, monks, is the non-indicative (anidassana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the non-indicative.

    And what, monks, is the unproliferated (nippapañca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unproliferated.

    And what, monks, is the peaceful (santa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the peaceful.

    And what, monks, is the death-free (amata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the death-free.

    And what, monks, is the sublime (paṇīta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the sublime.

    And what, monks, is the auspicious (siva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the auspicious.

    And what, monks, is the secure (khema)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the secure.

    And what, monks, is the elimination of craving (taṇhākkhaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the elimination of craving.

    And what, monks, is the wonderful (acchariya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the wonderful.

    And what, monks, is the amazing (abbhuta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the amazing.

    And what, monks, is the calamity-free (anītika)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the calamity-free.

    And what, monks, is the dhamma free of calamity (anītikadhamma)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the dhamma free of calamity.

    And what, monks, is extinguishment (nibbāna)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called extinguishment.

    And what, monks, is the unafflicted (abyāpajjha)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unafflicted.

    And what, monks, is dispassion (virāga)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called dispassion.

    And what, monks, is purity (suddhi)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called purity.

    And what, monks, is freedom (mutti)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called freedom.

    And what, monks, is the unadhesive (anālaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unadhesive.

    And what, monks, is the island (dīpa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the island.

    And what, monks, is the cave (leṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the cave.

    And what, monks, is the shelter (tāṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the shelter.

    And what, monks, is the refuge (saraṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the refuge.

    And what, monks, is the destination (parāyana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the destination.
The Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga 184:
  • What, there, is the not-fabricated component (asaṅkhatā dhātu)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-fabricated component.
The Paṭisambhidāmagga:
  • How is it that the discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa)?

    Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicchā), and mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa).... This discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

    He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.
And so on for the fetters which are terminated on the remaining three paths. These gnoses of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa-s) are also called gnoses of the bliss of liberation (vimuttisukha ñāṇa-s). The Paṭisambhidāmagga:
  • With the stream-entry path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

    (1) identity view,
    (2) doubt,
    (3) mistaken adherence to rules and duty,
    (4) the underlying tendency of view,
    (5) the underlying tendency of doubt.

    With the once-returner path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

    (6) the gross fetter of passion for sensual pleasure,
    (7) the gross fetter of aversion,
    (8) the gross underlying tendency of passion for sensual pleasure,
    (9) the gross underlying tendency of aversion.

    With the non-returner path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

    (10) the secondary fetter of passion for sensual pleasure,
    (11) the secondary fetter of aversion,
    (12) the secondary underlying tendency of passion for sensual pleasure,
    (13) the secondary underlying tendency of aversion.

    With the arahant path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

    (14) passion for form [existence],
    (15) passion for formless [existence],
    (16) conceit,
    (17) restlessness,
    (18) ignorance,
    (19) the underlying tendency of conceit,
    (20) the underlying tendency of passion for existence,
    (21) the underlying tendency of ignorance.
rowyourboat wrote:the (non) experience of the unconditioned which this thread is about.
The gnosis of the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion is known. It's called the gnosis of nibbāna (nibbāna ñāṇa), the gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa), the gnosis and vision of liberation (vimuttiñāṇadassana), and so on.

All the best,

Geoff
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Dear Matheesha,

It is useless to try and explain, even though our friends themselves undermine their stand and prove why what should remain undefined. somebody says it is a figurative concept, somebody says defining it brings them closer to achieving it, somebody further questions; still not realising, all this is utterly useless/ futile.

Metta to all

Parth
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

parth wrote:Dear Matheesha,

It is useless to try and explain, even though our friends themselves undermine their stand and prove why what should remain undefined. somebody says it is a figurative concept, somebody says defining it brings them closer to achieving it, somebody further questions; still not realising, all this is utterly useless/ futile.
Not that you have shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

still not realising, all this is utterly useless/ futile
Funny how the Buddha himself appeared to engage in these things that you consider so futile. You seem to want to ignore what the Buddhist canon actually says.

I'm fairly open about what can be useful practice, but the attitude being presented here turns a very nice dhamma into kind of a wet noodle. It turns the core of the dhamma into something akin to Sanjaya's eel-wriggling.
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Kenshow Wrote :
Funny how the Buddha himself appeared to engage in these things that you consider so futile. You seem to want to ignore what the Buddhist canon actually says.

I'm fairly open about what can be useful practice, but the attitude being presented here turns a very nice dhamma into kind of a wet noodle. It turns the core of the dhamma into something akin to Sanjaya's eel-wriggling.
Friends, What is explained in suttas are only certain aspects of nibanna (again this may be incorrect to state so) not the actual experience, which for all the debate above cannot be explained and put in words. To try and explain nibbana correctly in words is like putiing a striaght stick halfway in water and expecting it to remain staright visually, which it cannot, it bends (visually).

Metta

Parth
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

parth wrote:Kenshow Wrote :
Funny how the Buddha himself appeared to engage in these things that you consider so futile. You seem to want to ignore what the Buddhist canon actually says.

I'm fairly open about what can be useful practice, but the attitude being presented here turns a very nice dhamma into kind of a wet noodle. It turns the core of the dhamma into something akin to Sanjaya's eel-wriggling.
Friends, What is explained in suttas are only certain aspects of nibanna (again this may be incorrect to state so) not the actual experience, which for all the debate above cannot be explained and put in words. To try and explain nibbana correctly in words is like putiing a striaght stick halfway in water and expecting it to remain staright visually, which it cannot, it bends (visually).

Metta

Parth
To try and explain the taste of chocolate correctly in words is like putiing a striaght stick halfway in water and expecting it to remain staright visually, which it cannot, it bends (visually).

No one here is mistaking the discriptions of nibbana given by the for as being the actual experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

parth wrote:Friends, What is explained in suttas are only certain aspects of nibanna (again this may be incorrect to state so) not the actual experience, which for all the debate above cannot be explained and put in words.
No, you're continuing to avoid straightforwardly acknowledging the plain meaning of the sutta quotations you've been shown.

Also, if these "unexplainable aspects" of yours aren't traceable to the suttas, what reason is there to think they have anything to do with Buddhism? It seems to me they are an assumption on your part.
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