Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

danieLion wrote: but I am also interested in the "suttanta" method and ways of deepening practice at home to at least approximate retreat like conditions

Whatever method you opt for, it is going to take a great deal of work. Also, I have no idea what is meant by the "suttanta" method. It really does not exist. What exists are various ways of putting the sutta teachings into practice as we find with the Goenka and Mahasi Sayadaw methods and others.

Hi Retro,

retrofuturist wrote: Mike's not confused - that's just not his approach.

Naturally, I beg to differ. My approach is based very solidly on the Satipatthana and other Suttas. (As Tilt has often pointed out by reference to various Suttas).

There, of course, a number of interpretations of how to practise according to the Suttas (which personally I don't see as a problem, ---- different approaches seem to suit different people at different times, which is presumably why there are so many different meditation objects mentioned in the Suttas).

retrofuturist wrote: I did like your question though, and I'm interested to hear if anyone responds... I don't know of any, myself.

Are you saying that no-one I mentioned above teaches according to the Suttas?


Mike

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Naturally, I beg to differ. My approach is based very solidly on the Satipatthana and other Suttas. (As Tilt has often pointed out by reference to various Suttas).

That's good to hear, I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

mikenz66 wrote:Are you saying that no-one I mentioned above teaches according to the Suttas?

No, I wasn't suggesting that either.

To quote something I've said previously in relation to the suttanta approach, "The Sutta Pitaka becomes the basis for instruction and other sources (e.g. teachers, commentaries) have value to the extent that they illuminate rather than obfuscate what is contained in the Sutta Pitaka. The results may end up being similar to that of Mahavihara Theravada (as one would hope) but it's a different process of getting there."

So, in other words, someone follows the sutta as their primary instruction, rather than following a teacher's method, derived from the suttas.

To quote again, this time from thereductor, "I was thinking that we often lose sight of how the canon and the Theravada are related. That is, the Theravada is a supplement to the canon, and not the other way around. So where a mode of practice can be effectively defended with canonical material it should be considered as valid. To insist that such a position is invalid because it runs counter to the tradition is, to me, the making of inappropriate strife. And while I do concur that the canon is not the most detailed manual, I hold that the details within its pages are sufficient for completion of the goal. Whether or not a particular practitioner can ferret out the information and act on it to the degree necessary to accomplish the goal is a matter of personal conditioning."

Anyway, to tie this back to discussion on the Goenka technique, as I said earlier, I do not see it as being inconsistent with the suttas.

Metta,
Retro.

So what you're suggesting a preference for a no-teacher approach?


Mike

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:So what you're suggesting a preference for a no-teacher approach?

It's taking the Buddha as one's teacher, and regarding others as kalayana-mittas who may be able to render assistance in the teacher's absence.

Taking "no teacher" would not be in accord with the Triple Gem refuge.

“That which I have proclaimed and made known, Ānanda, as the Teaching and the Discipline (Dhamma-Vinaya), that shall be your Master when I am gone” (DN 16).

Metta,
Retro.

Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?


Mike

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?

That depends on whether you regard kalayana-mittas as teachers, I guess. As Ajahn Chah said, "everything is teaching us".

I would consider anyone who had an interest in my spiritual well-being as a kalayana-mitta, whether they be dead or alive, in meat-space or cyber-space.

Accordingly, I could quite happily learn from Mr. Goenka, mikenz66, Ajahn Brahm, Jack Kornfield, Ben, Ñāṇa, Buddhaghosa, Sylvester, Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, one of Mr. Goenka's ATs or Tiltbillings at any point in time.... but my root instruction will always be the Buddha's doctrine.

Metta,
Retro.

I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually.

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?

That depends on whether you regard kalayana-mittas as teachers, I guess. As Ajahn Chah said, "everything is teaching us".

I would consider anyone who had an interest in my spiritual well-being as a kalayana-mitta, whether they be dead or alive, in meat-space or cyber-space.

Accordingly, I could quite happily learn from Mr. Goenka, mikenz66, Ajahn Brahm, Jack Kornfield, Ben, Ñāṇa, Buddhaghosa, Sylvester, Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, one of Mr. Goenka's ATs or Tiltbillings at any point in time.... but my root instruction will always be the Buddha's doctrine.

Metta,
Retro.

Ajahn Chah did say that... however Ajahn Chah's main teacher was Ajahn Mun. Ajahn Chah in turn had scores of students to whom he was the teacher. Including Ajahn Brahm and Jack Kornfield.

Greetings danieLion,

danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually.

The Buddha could not envisage any path to enlightenment which was devoid of the Four Noble Truths.

(though perhaps questions of this ilk ought to be explored in separate topics?)

Metta,
Retro.

I certainly think it would be a good idea if input into this thread which is primarily about the Goenka approach was largely from either inquirers, or from people with extensive experience of same.

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings danieLion,

danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually.

The Buddha could not envisage any path to enlightenment which was devoid of the Four Noble Truths.

(though perhaps questions of this ilk ought to be explored in separate topics?)

Metta,
Retro.

oh. i'm interrupting. sorry. for instance threads on the Buddha as ultimate teacher/suttanta approach and/or one on something on the possibility of "solo" awakening and/or if it is possible to know the Four Truths solo?
until tomorrow, good night

I think the fact that the Buddha bequeathed THREE jewels danieLion Buddha Dhamma AND Sangha should be seen as pretty conclusive.
And I dont think he envisaged Sangha as sending messages to others merely. Or in setting up of another institution. Or a heirachy.

He meant the whole gamut of interraction, the sharing of space and mingling of breath.
The gross and the subtle.
In the profundity of his wisdom he knew that there was a whole area of our functioning which had to be in gear with the whole, that area in which we are social beings. Even though that social functioning had to be enhanced from time to time in withdrawing from it...in retreat.

PeterB wrote: however Ajahn Chah's main teacher was Ajahn Mun. Ajahn Chah in turn had scores of students to whom he was the teacher. Including Ajahn Brahm and Jack Kornfield.

By Ajahn Chah's own account in Food for the Heart, and from his disciple Paul Breiter, he only stayed with Ajahn Mun for 3 days.

In Everything Arises, Everything Falls Away, Paul Breiter discusses the relationship between Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Mun. “Ajahn Chah spent only a few days with him but afterward always spoke of himself as a disciple of Ajahn Mun, saying, ‘If a person with good eyes stands close to something, he sees it. If his eyes are bad, it doesn’t matter how long he’s there.’

http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/20 ... -teaching/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually.

Possibly, by not knowing Buddhism by name, but having rediscovered what is essential.

An American born Buddhist monk, Thanisaro Bhikku, published a book called "Wings To Awakening". You can find a free copy by Googling. The theme of the book is that the Buddha knew that his teachings would eventually get distorted and die out. The Buddha made several lists describing qualities a person could develop. The most famous of these lists is The 8 Fold Path. His theory was that if a person worked to develop all of the qualities on any of those lists the quest would eventually force them to rediscover and relearn his teachings.