Manasikara in sweeping

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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retrofuturist
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Manasikara in sweeping

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:22 am

Greetings,

May I ask a question to our resident meditators who use "sweeping" in their practice?

When you sweep, do you ever pay attention to the quality of the volitional action of sweeping, or put another way, the deliberate act of changing the focus of attention?

I hope the question was clear, but feel free to ask for clarification if not.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

May I ask a question to our resident meditators who use "sweeping" in their practice?

When you sweep, do you ever pay attention to the quality of the volitional action of sweeping, or put another way, the deliberate act of changing the focus of attention?

I hope the question was clear, but feel free to ask for clarification if not.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I cannot speak for sweeping practice, but noting, as in the Mahasi Sayadaw practice, has a volitional aspect to it which helps keep the awareness directed and increases the concentration, but in time the noting is dropped.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:39 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: When you sweep, do you ever pay attention to the quality of the volitional action of sweeping, or put another way, the deliberate act of changing the focus of attention?
Do you mean paying attention to intention? Seeing the intention to make a certain motion before doing it? That's a standard instruction from Mahasi-style teachers.

Not that I sweep much, but that's what I do when walking... And on retreat what I attempt to do with every intentional action. Not that I succeed in the latter...

Mike

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:46 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Do you mean paying attention to intention?
Yes.
mikenz66 wrote:Seeing the intention to make a certain motion before doing it?

I was specifically thinking "during" rather than before.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Seeing the intention to make a certain motion before doing it?

I was specifically thinking "during" rather than before.
In my experience it's much easier to see the intention before the action starts. The "during" part tends to happen fairly automatically and it's not so easy to perceive the intention once the action is happening, until there is an intention to change direction. However, when enough concentration is built up it is possible to perceive all kinds of stuff going on.

Mike

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Ben
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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by Ben » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:06 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

May I ask a question to our resident meditators who use "sweeping" in their practice?

When you sweep, do you ever pay attention to the quality of the volitional action of sweeping, or put another way, the deliberate act of changing the focus of attention?
Vedana is my primary focus and during some sessions and frequently during retreats other phenomenology comes into focus. It sounds simple but its difficult to articulate the actual experience. And Mike's point is good. Intention is easier to pick up when there is a change in direction of one's attention.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:24 am

Greetings everyone,

Thanks for sharing your experiences... should you ever attempt to observe the volition that operates concurrently with the sweeping, I'd be interested to hear those experiences too.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by Ben » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:Thanks for sharing your experiences... should you ever attempt to observe the volition that operates concurrently with the sweeping, I'd be interested to hear those experiences too.
It was actually what I was referring to.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:29 am

Greetings Ben,

OK, cool... sorry, I thought you meant it in a pre-emptive "intention to move this way" like what Mike was describing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by Sanghamitta » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:41 am

I think to some extent its self reinforcing..in my experience. By which i dont mean that it is automatic. Rather that it provides its own momentum.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by Ben » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:44 am

retrofuturist wrote:OK, cool... sorry, I thought you meant it in a pre-emptive "intention to move this way" like what Mike was describing.
No problem Retro. Its definitely easier to see intention when one intends to change direction or move somewhere else but it can be seen at other times as well. It happens when there is a 'depth' of mental stillness and an absence of papanca and self-identification with anything. I apologise if I'm being cryptic.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:54 am

No dramas Ben... it's hard to use worldly parlance for things which aren't so worldly.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:19 pm

Ben wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:OK, cool... sorry, I thought you meant it in a pre-emptive "intention to move this way" like what Mike was describing.
No problem Retro. Its definitely easier to see intention when one intends to change direction or move somewhere else but it can be seen at other times as well. It happens when there is a 'depth' of mental stillness and an absence of papanca and self-identification with anything. I apologise if I'm being cryptic.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. There is some very subtle stuff there that for a dullard like me takes years of practise to see with any clarity.

Mike

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:38 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings everyone,

Thanks for sharing your experiences... should you ever attempt to observe the volition that operates concurrently with the sweeping, I'd be interested to hear those experiences too.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Out of curiosity, why are you asking this?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Manasikara in sweeping

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:23 pm

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Out of curiosity, why are you asking this?
Specific to the question.... avoiding self perception of a "sweeper" through seeing the characteristics of it.

More generally... seeing the volitional nature of manasikara, and again, its characteristics.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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