Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Dan74
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Dan74 »

Dinsdale wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:27 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:28 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:12 pm

I don't think so. The early Zen teachings like the quoted are obsessed with emptiness. The later Zen teachings often are obsessed with "all is mind" and "true self" and thus are dangerously close to Advaita.

The Buddha's teachings are not obsessed with emptiness but teach the middle way which is appropriate because perfect emptiness and the conventional have to be integrated.
What is at play here, I believe, is selection bias. The texts that are often translated by the scholars are a selection made by them and influenced by a variety of factors, including selecting the most distinct, unusual and iconoclastic texts that may well be of minor relevance within the tradition itself. And then we paint a very skewed picture of what a living Zen practice is. That's one of the reasons why one does not get a proper understanding of a Buddhist tradition from books alone and why a genuine teacher is paramount.

Ven Huifeng made this point a number of times when he used to post online to counter people's misperception of Zen/Chan/Seon.
There is also the problem of judging one school through the lens of another.
True. Not really useful. The only thing we can ask, I think, is whether it works to uproot greed, anger and ignorance and develop wholesome qualities.
_/|\_
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:12 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:56 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:47 am Better?
Yes
I don't think so. The early Zen teachings like the quoted are obsessed with emptiness. The later Zen teachings often are obsessed with "all is mind" and "true self" and thus are dangerously close to Advaita.

The Buddha's teachings are not obsessed with emptiness but teach the middle way which is appropriate because perfect emptiness and the conventional have to be integrated.

I agree that zen can over reach by taking up idealism. It’s simply another trap of Māra.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Dan74
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Dan74 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:33 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:12 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:56 pm

Yes
I don't think so. The early Zen teachings like the quoted are obsessed with emptiness. The later Zen teachings often are obsessed with "all is mind" and "true self" and thus are dangerously close to Advaita.

The Buddha's teachings are not obsessed with emptiness but teach the middle way which is appropriate because perfect emptiness and the conventional have to be integrated.

I agree that zen can over reach by taking up idealism. It’s simply another trap of Māra.
It's just a matter of the right medicine for the sickness. For one fixated on things, emptiness is the cure. For one fixated on emptiness, the true self is the cure. Ultimately, Zen teaches non-abiding - neither clinging to aggregates, or even to emptiness, nor any true self, nor any states or even realisation.
_/|\_
auto
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by auto »

Dan74 wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:06 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:33 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:12 pm

I don't think so. The early Zen teachings like the quoted are obsessed with emptiness. The later Zen teachings often are obsessed with "all is mind" and "true self" and thus are dangerously close to Advaita.

The Buddha's teachings are not obsessed with emptiness but teach the middle way which is appropriate because perfect emptiness and the conventional have to be integrated.

I agree that zen can over reach by taking up idealism. It’s simply another trap of Māra.
It's just a matter of the right medicine for the sickness. For one fixated on things, emptiness is the cure. For one fixated on emptiness, the true self is the cure. Ultimately, Zen teaches non-abiding - neither clinging to aggregates, or even to emptiness, nor any true self, nor any states or even realisation.
sense of self is tangible. Not just an idea or ideal or support condition for perception of no-self. True Self is the permanent aspect of a sense of self and when found, the impermanent part is recognized and casted away. So unless you get to know the real you won't be able to let go. And path does end with that, but its not real end.
the riddles are not metaphors or haikus nor hagiography. Its what you must do in order to initiate some biological progress of an advanged person.
auto
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.12/en/sujato wrote: ‘Whatever sizable creatures enter or leave the citadel, all of them do so via this gate.’‘ye kho keci oḷārikā pāṇā imaṃ nagaraṃ pavisanti vā nikkhamanti vā, sabbe te imināva dvārena pavisanti vā nikkhamanti vā’ti.

In the same way, I understand this by inference from the teaching:Evameva kho me, bhante, dhammanvayo vidito:
‘All the perfected ones, fully awakened Buddhas—whether past, future, or present—give up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. Their mind is firmly established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. They correctly develop the seven awakening factors. And they wake up to the supreme perfect awakening.’”
‘yepi te, bhante, ahesuṃ atītamaddhānaṃ arahanto sammāsambuddhā, sabbe te bhagavanto pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya, cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe, catūsu satipaṭṭhānesu suppatiṭṭhitacittā, satta bojjhaṅge yathābhūtaṃ bhāvetvā, anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhiṃ abhisambujjhiṃsu.
and fellows no no-self, someone got to wake up to the anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhi. Is that someone abhisambujjhati. As there won't be transmigration from person A to B, different mechanics.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

  • auto wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:33 pm
    Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:25 pm Today, while watching some zen painting techniques, I found this ...
    • how to unfold my True Universal Self.
    Yayyy!
    ... In this way Zen Brush Painting is both a practice of and expression of Enlightenment. The paintings are secondary.

    1. It’s Not About You
    Zen Brush painting is not about your talent, knowledge or skill. It’s not about you. It is about your True Universal Self, not the separate being you think and believe you are. Let all of that go. Empty yourself of yourself. Let the universe use this empty vessel to express itself through the brush, ink and paper. Let the painting unfold by itself.
    ...
    Quote sounds
    more like I do whatever I want and i don't bother that other people wants could conflict with mine, more so if they want me to do something I rejoice in thoughts of being secluded and alone from others.. and post about my mental state on social media.

    .

    .
  • auto wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:32 pm
    Dan74 wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:06 pm
    Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:33 pm


    I agree that zen can over reach by taking up idealism. It’s simply another trap of Māra.
    It's just a matter of the right medicine for the sickness. For one fixated on things, emptiness is the cure. For one fixated on emptiness, the true self is the cure. Ultimately, Zen teaches non-abiding - neither clinging to aggregates, or even to emptiness, nor any true self, nor any states or even realisation.
    sense of self is tangible. Not just an idea or ideal or support condition for perception of no-self. True Self is the permanent aspect of a sense of self and when found, the impermanent part is recognized and casted away. So unless you get to know the real you won't be able to let go. And path does end with that, but its not real end.
    the riddles are not metaphors or haikus nor hagiography. Its what you must do in order to initiate some biological progress of an advanged person.

.


Well, Thanks, ... for the Zen and the True self.

And, this thread exquisitely belongs to "Connections to Other Paths".

:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22
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cappuccino
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by cappuccino »

Zen lacks the actual teaching of the Buddha…


Zen can't lead to Nirvana
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:19 pm Zen lacks the actual teaching of the Buddha…


Zen can't lead to Nirvana
I think Zennies would disagree with you.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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manas
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by manas »

I'm only interested in the pali suttas, have read enough of other religions & sects over all these years to no longer be interested in getting more confused.

However: while reading this topic - and noticing how we all have different points of view regarding this, also noticing how my own view colours what I'm reading, noticing subtle little reactions within myself, regarding 'what I agree with' and 'what I don't agree with' - I had a tiny taste of how 'to hold a particular view' can be burdensome. I include myself in this.

So thank you. A tiny sense of 'weariness' with views. There's some dukkha even in holding to views, perhaps? Having said that: we need right view to progress to Nibbana, as I understand it (and believe). However - perhaps when we attain that state beyond views, we will all be better off for it.

metta.

may we all attain the state free from all stress
Last edited by manas on Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

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manas wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:50 pm I'm only interested in the pali suttas, have read enough of other religions & sects over all these years to no longer be interested in getting more confused.

However: while reading this topic - and noticing how we all have different points of view regarding this, also noticing how my own view colours what I'm reading, noticing subtle little reactions within myself, regarding 'what I agree with' and 'what I don't agree with' - I had a tiny taste of how 'to hold a particular view' can be burdensome. I include myself in this.

So thank you. A tiny sense of 'weariness' with views. There's some dukkha even in holding to views, perhaps? Having said that: we need right view to progress to Nibbana, as I understand it (and believe). However - perhaps when we attain that state beyond views, we will all be better off for it.

metta.

may we all attain the state beyond all forms of dukkha. In this lifetime or within seven. :heart:

Views are dependently originated. They are anicca, dukkha and anatta. Right view is fabricated but it’s the view that leads to the abandoning and cessation of all views, including itself. It’s only a raft after all :)
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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manas
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by manas »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:57 pm
manas wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:50 pm I'm only interested in the pali suttas, have read enough of other religions & sects over all these years to no longer be interested in getting more confused.

However: while reading this topic - and noticing how we all have different points of view regarding this, also noticing how my own view colours what I'm reading, noticing subtle little reactions within myself, regarding 'what I agree with' and 'what I don't agree with' - I had a tiny taste of how 'to hold a particular view' can be burdensome. I include myself in this.

So thank you. A tiny sense of 'weariness' with views. There's some dukkha even in holding to views, perhaps? Having said that: we need right view to progress to Nibbana, as I understand it (and believe). However - perhaps when we attain that state beyond views, we will all be better off for it.

metta.

may we all attain the state beyond all forms of dukkha. In this lifetime or within seven. :heart:

Views are dependently originated. They are anicca, dukkha and anatta. Right view is fabricated but it’s the view that leads to the abandoning and cessation of all views, including itself. It’s only a raft after all :)
I might take this up in another topic at some stage. It's an issue I've only recently begun noticing. I don't want to go off-topic. But I'm beginning to notice how even 'holding' to views, there's some dukkha there. But just quickly - so, the act of holding on, even to good views, did the Buddha say that is also stress? Yet, we need to hold onto that raft in order to cross over?

So, ultimately - Nibbana is beyond even views? Beyond even right view? Beyond even the Noble Eightfold Path, that I've been trying to undertake?
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Ceisiwr »

manas wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:02 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:57 pm
manas wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:50 pm I'm only interested in the pali suttas, have read enough of other religions & sects over all these years to no longer be interested in getting more confused.

However: while reading this topic - and noticing how we all have different points of view regarding this, also noticing how my own view colours what I'm reading, noticing subtle little reactions within myself, regarding 'what I agree with' and 'what I don't agree with' - I had a tiny taste of how 'to hold a particular view' can be burdensome. I include myself in this.

So thank you. A tiny sense of 'weariness' with views. There's some dukkha even in holding to views, perhaps? Having said that: we need right view to progress to Nibbana, as I understand it (and believe). However - perhaps when we attain that state beyond views, we will all be better off for it.

metta.

may we all attain the state beyond all forms of dukkha. In this lifetime or within seven. :heart:

Views are dependently originated. They are anicca, dukkha and anatta. Right view is fabricated but it’s the view that leads to the abandoning and cessation of all views, including itself. It’s only a raft after all :)
I might take this up in another topic at some stage. It's an issue I've only recently begun noticing. I don't want to go off-topic. But I'm beginning to notice how even 'holding' to views, there's some dukkha there. But just quickly - so, the act of holding on, even to good views, did the Buddha say that is also stress? Yet, we need to hold onto that raft in order to cross over?

Right view is fabricated. Nibbana is the stilling and relinquishment of all fabrications. Right view is a concept. Concepts depend upon sense experience and the “world”. Nibbana is the cessation of all that, and so it’s also the cessation of all views.

Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,’ is a viewpoint. The extent to which there are viewpoints, view-stances, the taking up of views, obsessions of views, the cause of views, & the uprooting of views: that’s what I know. That’s what I see. Knowing that, I say ‘I know.’ Seeing that, I say ‘I see.’ Why should I say ‘I don’t know, I don’t see’? I do know. I do see.”
https://suttacentral.net/an10.96/en/thanissaro

Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html‬


In other words, searching for truth among words, concepts and views is like chasing a mirage. It’s a net. But, we must use the concepts of right view to escape all concepts and views just like how we use desire to escape all desire, or how we use conceit to escape all conceit.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Ceisiwr »

manas
So, ultimately - Nibbana is beyond even views? Beyond even right view? Beyond even the Noble Eightfold Path, that I've been trying to undertake?
Nibbana is also a concept. Don’t take it to be a thing. It too must be seen through. Nibbana is simply a concept pointing towards the goal, which is beyond all words for its beyond all conceptions and views since it’s not fabricated.


More on views here:
The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn’t discern view, doesn’t discern the origination of view, doesn’t discern the cessation of view, doesn’t discern the path of practice leading to the cessation of view, and so for him that view grows. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress... The Tathagata exists after death’—this craving-standpoint, this perception-standpoint, this product of conceiving, this product of elaboration, this clinging-standpoint: That’s anguish. ‘The Tathagata doesn’t exist after death’: That’s anguish. ‘The Tathagata both does and doesn’t exist after death’: That’s anguish. ‘The Tathagata neither does nor doesn’t exist after death’: That’s anguish.
https://suttacentral.net/an7.54/en/thanissaro


The Noble Eightfold Path is just a raft. Eventually you must see through even that and let it go. If you cling to the raft then you won’t reach the far shore, and when you reach the far shore you will see that there was no near and far shore.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Ceisiwr »

manas


To be a bit more clear, instead of getting lost in the vast maze of concepts, views and obsessions the Buddha teaches the Dhamma via the middle. Its good to bear in mind what Nama-rupa is:

“And what [monks] is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are, [monks], called name-&-form."

There being ignorance, there are formations. Consciousness depends on nama-rupa and nama-rupa depends upon consciousness. Within Nama feeling arises due to one or more of the 4 elements (as abstractions). Feeling leads to perception. For the worldling, having a mind immersed in the darkness of ignorance, intention follows. This is the turning of a phenomena into a “thing”. There is now an “in here” and a “thing out there”, the subject-object duality. Contact now comes to be (for the meeting of 3 is contact). This is followed by attention, and so we can see how the world of “things” and sense bases comes to be along with views. This is why views are anicca, dukkha and anatta.

Now for the Arahant there is no more ignorance. Being touched by a feeling he perceives, but he stops there. He doesn’t go to intention (hence kamma has stopped too) and so he doesn’t then turn a perception into a “thing”. He is beyond all conceiving. Contact then has ceased. The world has ceased. Concepts and views have ceased. He no longer thinks of the world in terms of existence or non-existence, for he has transcended those concepts. The basis for them has been cut off. He doesn’t fabricate a self, a thing or a world.

Of course these are all views and concepts too that must be seen through and let go of but as I said Right View leads to the cessation of all views and concepts, itself included.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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manas
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by manas »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:18 am manas


To be a bit more clear, instead of getting lost in the vast maze of concepts, views and obsessions the Buddha teaches the Dhamma via the middle. Its good to bear in mind what Nama-rupa is:

“And what [monks] is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are, [monks], called name-&-form."

There being ignorance, there are formations. Consciousness depends on nama-rupa and nama-rupa depends upon consciousness. Within Nama feeling arises due to one or more of the 4 elements (as abstractions). Feeling leads to perception. For the worldling, having a mind immersed in the darkness of ignorance, intention follows. This is the turning of a phenomena into a “thing”. There is now an “in here” and a “thing out there”, the subject-object duality. Contact now comes to be (for the meeting of 3 is contact). This is followed by attention, and so we can see how the world of “things” and sense bases comes to be along with views. This is why views are anicca, dukkha and anatta.

Now for the Arahant there is no more ignorance. Being touched by a feeling he perceives, but he stops there. He doesn’t go to intention (hence kamma has stopped too) and so he doesn’t then turn a perception into a “thing”. He is beyond all conceiving. Contact then has ceased. The world has ceased. Concepts and views have ceased. He no longer thinks of the world in terms of existence or non-existence, for he has transcended those concepts. The basis for them has been cut off. He doesn’t fabricate a self, a thing or a world.

Of course these are all views and concepts too that must be seen through and let go of but as I said Right View leads to the cessation of all views and concepts, itself included.
Thank you so much :anjali:
Obviously I have more reflection & practise to do, but this has been a good start. I appreciate that you quoted the Buddha's words as recorded in the suttas, because my heart is more open to that. Those words have power, are 'apparent here-and-now', and are 'to be realized by oneself'. Going on the Internet so much, has actually helped me begin to feel a bit of weariness with 'holding views', since I notice how everyone seems to have an opinion, and they are all slightly different. Going back and forth between so many opinions, it can become wearisome...then one goes on a Buddhist site, and still, more opinions & differing points of view...argh! Views, views, views!

This is very valuable, having a place like this online, where we can discuss such important and wonderful topics.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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