Destruction of defilement

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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confusedlayman
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Destruction of defilement

Post by confusedlayman »

How come seeing non-self, impermanence leads to end of suffering?

Impermanence based cognition itself impermanent so if u see anything Annata, Annica then next momemt u might see it as atta, non-anicca and back to cowboy life .. so any advise?
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by JamesTheGiant »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:08 am How come seeing non-self, impermanence leads to end of suffering?

Impermanence based cognition itself impermanent ....
Because it's more than just "seeing" . That moment is like a rewriting of the computer programme, or like a rewiring of brain pathways.
It makes changes at a deep level.
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by char101 »

Suffering is the characteristic of samsara (round of rebirths). Samsara is fueled by kamma. Kamma is fueled by tanha and upadana. Knowledge of anicca, dukka, anatta, eliminates tanha and upadana thus stopping kamma thus stopping samsara thus stopping suffering.

Note: by kamma it means kamma that bears future result. The kamma (actions) of an arahat does not bear future result.
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by confusedlayman »

char101 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:42 am Suffering is the characteristic of samsara (round of rebirths). Samsara is fueled by kamma. Kamma is fueled by tanha and upadana. Knowledge of anicca, dukka, anatta, eliminates tanha and upadana thus stopping kamma thus stopping samsara thus stopping suffering.

Note: by kamma it means kamma that bears future result. The kamma (actions) of an arahat does not bear future result.
Why karma of arhant dont bear fruit? If I see someone hungry, I give the food I have and arhant also help by giving food to those in need. Both actions has effect? Both do it intentionally. Are u saying arhant action has cause but no effect? If thought I is not coming, someone people when drunk so hard will also lose ego temporarily and do bad stuffs and get effect and we see them cry or suffer. Can u explain me or give me book reference so I’ll read it
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char101
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by char101 »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:10 am
char101 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:42 am Suffering is the characteristic of samsara (round of rebirths). Samsara is fueled by kamma. Kamma is fueled by tanha and upadana. Knowledge of anicca, dukka, anatta, eliminates tanha and upadana thus stopping kamma thus stopping samsara thus stopping suffering.

Note: by kamma it means kamma that bears future result. The kamma (actions) of an arahat does not bear future result.
Why karma of arhant dont bear fruit? If I see someone hungry, I give the food I have and arhant also help by giving food to those in need. Both actions has effect? Both do it intentionally. Are u saying arhant action has cause but no effect? If thought I is not coming, someone people when drunk so hard will also lose ego temporarily and do bad stuffs and get effect and we see them cry or suffer. Can u explain me or give me book reference so I’ll read it
I think the most theoretical answer is from the abhidhamma, where the citta/consciousness that exists within an arahat has its own classicification which is called kiriya citta, which does not produce any result.

While the citta that appears in non-arahat is either akusala citta (produces bad kamma), kusala citta (produces good kamma), rupa-citta (produces good kamma in the rupa brahma world), and arupa citta (produces good kamma in the arupa brahma world).
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:08 am How come seeing non-self, impermanence leads to end of suffering?
Realizing impermanence leads to realizing suffering leads to realizing non-self, i.e. nothing can be controled or manipulated by self to bring happiness. That entails disenchantment with the impermanent aggregates not being under control by self and thus are dukkha, disenchantment with aggregates is disenchantment with all experience as impermanent, dukkha, non-self which leads to dispassion, irreversibly letting go of everything, and final knowledge of liberation from dukhha.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Destruction of defilement

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In fact, developing concentration is the vital condition for knowledge and vision of reality as it is (ie. has the three marks). All three marks are recognized in one vision of the skhandas. This leads to disenchantment- which leads to dispassion - which leads to release - which leads to knowledge and vision of release.

Look up “Vital Conditions” on suttacentral. The explanation is right there in the sutta.

Unfortunately, no one (or very few people) can develop the type of sukha necessary to bring about the type of samma Samādhi which brings about vision of the three marks.

So people don’t see the connection between Samatha and Vipasanna - and they do stupid things such as observing the rise and fall of the abdomen - as if doing this a hundred thousand times would lead to vipasanna.

Not entirely anyone’s fault. It’s just a fact that right concentration is hard to come by because the Buddha doesn’t spoon feed people with his teachings.

The Buddha expects that you will suffer and if you suffer enough you will develop faith - the vital condition that starts the whole process.
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:25 am Unfortunately, no one (or very few people) can develop the type of sukha necessary to bring about the type of samma Samādhi which brings about vision of the three marks.
That sukkha would be a necessary condition for insight seems to be a private view. Whereas it seems to be commonly accepted that concentration - the depths of which is an object of debate - is a necessary condition for insight.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:41 am
Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:25 am Unfortunately, no one (or very few people) can develop the type of sukha necessary to bring about the type of samma Samādhi which brings about vision of the three marks.
That sukkha would be a necessary condition for insight seems to be a private view. Whereas it seems to be commonly accepted that concentration - the depths of which is an object of debate - is a necessary condition for insight.
Seems to be? Did you read “Vital Conditions”? Ie. dependent cessation? Obviously I can’t get you to do a simple google search so here it is.
I say that this knowledge of ending has a vital condition, it doesn’t lack a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Freedom.’ I say that freedom has a vital condition, it doesn’t lack a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Dispassion.’ I say that dispassion has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Disillusionment.’ I say that disillusionment has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Truly knowing and seeing.’ I say that truly knowing and seeing has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Immersion.’ I say that immersion has a vital condition.
And what is it? You should say: ‘Bliss.’ I say that bliss has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Tranquility.’ I say that tranquility has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Rapture.’ I say that rapture has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Joy.’ I say that joy has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Faith.’ I say that faith has a vital condition.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.23/en/sujato

Clearly, the vital condition for Samādhi is sukkha. Pure and simple.

Likely the private view belongs to you as you have no inherent knowledge as to the nature of jhanic bliss such that it might unify the mind in Samādhi.
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:03 am
SteRo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:41 am
Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:25 am Unfortunately, no one (or very few people) can develop the type of sukha necessary to bring about the type of samma Samādhi which brings about vision of the three marks.
That sukkha would be a necessary condition for insight seems to be a private view. Whereas it seems to be commonly accepted that concentration - the depths of which is an object of debate - is a necessary condition for insight.
Seems to be? Did you read “Vital Conditions”? Ie. dependent cessation? Obviously I can’t get you to do a simple google search so here it is.
I say that this knowledge of ending has a vital condition, it doesn’t lack a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Freedom.’ I say that freedom has a vital condition, it doesn’t lack a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Dispassion.’ I say that dispassion has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Disillusionment.’ I say that disillusionment has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Truly knowing and seeing.’ I say that truly knowing and seeing has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Immersion.’ I say that immersion has a vital condition.
And what is it? You should say: ‘Bliss.’ I say that bliss has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Tranquility.’ I say that tranquility has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Rapture.’ I say that rapture has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Joy.’ I say that joy has a vital condition. And what is it? You should say: ‘Faith.’ I say that faith has a vital condition.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.23/en/sujato

Clearly, the vital condition for Samādhi is sukkha. Pure and simple.

Likely the private view belongs to you as you have no inherent knowledge as to the nature of jhanic bliss such that it might unify the mind in Samādhi.
That's interesting, yes I know that sequence. Thanissaro calls it "Transcendental Dependent Arising". Since I do not reject the suttas it is a matter of interpretation.

See:
Faith (saddha)
Joy (pamojja)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquillity (passaddhi)
Happiness (sukha)
Concentration (samadhi)
Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)
Disenchantment (nibbida)
Dispassion (viraga)
Emancipation (vimutti)
Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana)
Where Sujato has "immersion" Thanissara has "Concentration" and thus the Joy, Rapture, Tranquillity, Happiness are not neccessarily concomitant with "concentration" but they might be concomitant with "concentration".
But that Joy, Rapture, Tranquillity, Happiness are experienced in the context of practicing the Eightfold Path is certain. Nevertheless the kind of concentration preceding "knowledge and vision" is undefined.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Destruction of defilement

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:computerproblem: Sujato says “immersion”. Thinassaro says “concentration”. The Pali is “Samādhi”.

It has a vital condition ... bliss, happiness, pleasure, “sukkha”. It leads to “knowledge and vision”.

Are we just arguing semantics here? What am I missing?

Let’s just go with Thinassaro’s translation and call it “concentration”! Does that resolve the issue for you?

What kind of concentration would the Buddha be referring to in this passage besides “right concentration”??!
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:41 am :computerproblem: Sujato says “immersion”. Thinassaro says “concentration”. The Pali is “Samādhi”.

It has a vital condition ... bliss, happiness, pleasure, “sukkha”. It leads to “knowledge and vision”.

Are we just arguing semantics here? What am I missing?
Everything is about semantics, too.
Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:41 am What kind of concentration would the Buddha be referring to in this passage besides “right concentration”??!
Yes and "right concentration" is defined by "quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities" + (plus) a concentration.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by Pondera »

Indeed. As you say “secluded from sensuality; etc...”

But also notice
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

As in dependent cessation we see the trademark “piti” and sukkha” born of (here) seclusion and (elsewhere) composure (as in jhana # 2).

Followed (as in our dependent cessation) by a description of knowledge and vision of things as they really are.

Followed (as in our dependent cessation) by a description of “disenchantment”.

Followed by the state of “dispassion”.

Is it still your view that Thinassaro’s Transcendent Dependent Arising is anything other than a clear and concise description of jhana taken to the level of vipasanna?

If so ... :computerproblem: then what is that sequence pointing at? Or am I missing your point?
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:04 am Indeed. As you say “secluded from sensuality; etc...”

But also notice
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

But see the paragraph before that says:
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
So it seems what has been said is that the ending of the mental fermentations depends on a concentration.
Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:04 am As in dependent cessation we see the trademark “piti” and sukkha” born of (here) seclusion and (elsewhere) composure (as in jhana # 2).

Followed (as in our dependent cessation) by a description of knowledge and vision of things as they really are.

Followed (as in our dependent cessation) by a description of “disenchantment”.

Followed by the state of “dispassion”.
I understand that you are opting for Option 2 I mentioned above:
thus the Joy, Rapture, Tranquillity, Happiness are not neccessarily concomitant with "concentration" [Option 1] but they might be concomitant with "concentration" [Option 2].
But as the quotes show it is supported by sutta only as one of two options.

Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:04 am Is it still your view that Thinassaro’s Transcendent Dependent Arising is anything other than a clear and concise description of jhana taken to the level of vipasanna?
It is not a "clear and concise description of jhana" but an affirmation that a concentration is necessary.
Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:04 am If so ... :computerproblem: then what is that sequence pointing at? Or am I missing your point?
As said the sequence may be applicable in terms of Theravada insight since it is based on sutta. I did not negate the sequence as such. It is a matter of interpretation only.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Destruction of defilement

Post by Pondera »

What are you doing up so late? :computerproblem:
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