Awareness of awareness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
ToVincent
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by ToVincent »

To understand what "manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo" (SN 47.42) - (憶念集 則法集 - SA 609) really means, one has to translate more correctly the word manasikāra.
If manasikāra can be somewhat translated as "attention", it's original and underlying meaning is "to turn the mano (towards)" (manasi-kṛ).

In our case - that is to say manasikārasamudayā - kṛ means "to turn the mano towards"; and does not take the other underlying meanings of kṛ - namely the desiderative intention to do something; or the appropriation of something (with the mano).

Also, to understand what samudaya means, one has to understand its "counterpart" vaya. As in SN 52.1 (https://justpaste.it/1d9uy)
Samudaya
samudayati: samudeti [saṃ-√ud-√i]
Samudeti [saṁ+udeti]
Udeti [ud + eti of √i ]

Vaya
[Sk.व्यय vyaya - [ vy-aya ] - (act. of वी vī = vi+√i)

with:
√ उद् ud OR √ उन्द् und
- to flow or issue out , spring (as water) (RV. AV. ŚBr. KātyŚr. ĀśvGṛ.)
√ इ i
- to go - to flow - spread (RV. AV. ŚBr. MBh.)

&

Saṃ = collectively, jointly, synergetically.
Vi = apart, asunder.
So what the mano turns towards to, is the synergistic flow of the khandhas from the namarupa nidana.

This is what a proper lexicography shows in the suttas/sutras.


Whatever experiences or interpretations (Sumedho, Brahms, Lexington, etc.) are out there; what flows and spreads synergistically (collectively) are the khandhas "making up" a Dhamma (a phenomena).

I suppose the "awareness of awareness" would be about being aware (with the ceto,) that our mano turns towards (is aware of) this synergistic process in the first place.
And the best way that our "awareness of awareness" can be settled, is to turn the mano towards the source (yoniso) [arrow 2 - https://justpaste.it/1n1ii] - that is to say, towards the namarupa nidana and its khandhas that "sankharize" collectively to form a dhamma - and how all this flows synergistically towards the internal.


Note on yoniso manasikāra:
In the many and often confusing Chinese translations of this concept, the "internal" does recur, as in MĀ 211: "internal oneself's attention (viz. one's own (sva) attention”) (內自思惟).
Or in SĀ 843: “internal right attention” (內正思惟).
Here" attention" is Muëller's translation of the general meaning of 思惟 = thinking.
More properly, this thinking (manasikāra) has obviously to do exclusively with the mano.

.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
What kind of magic do you use?

auto
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:12 am
To understand what "manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo" (SN 47.42) - (憶念集 則法集 - SA 609) really means, one has to translate more correctly the word manasikāra.
If manasikāra can be somewhat translated as "attention", it's original and underlying meaning is "to turn the mano (towards)" (manasi-kṛ).

In our case - that is to say manasikārasamudayā - kṛ means "to turn the mano towards"; and does not take the other underlying meanings of kṛ - namely the desiderative intention to do something; or the appropriation of something (with the mano).
Whatever kamma what result is experienced intellectually is manasikāra. Dhamma is kamma what results in thoughts of this is, that is,they are, I am, I am it, this is mine.. pronouns.
(Seeing beautiful tree)[manasikāra] results in (thoughts of this is beautiful tree)[dhamma].

Maybe why it is mana is because it is only humans what are capable of understanding dhamma.

Calmoid
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Calmoid »

auto wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:26 pm
Calmoid wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:59 am
1. Awareness can't be aware of itself. That would require a second awareness. You can only be indirectly aware of awareness through being aware of its objects. You know its there, otherwise you wouldn't be aware of something (contrary to sleep - not aware of something = awareness not there).
'awareness of awareness' is undivided, it is as one thing as awareness is.

When you are aware, and then come aware that you are aware there is some kind of disconnection or inference moment but then doing it second time it is flawless. That gap is when the mind leaps towards the underlying thing, which after that you can do it by yourself when you are on the seat of that mind what previously leaped.
Doing it third time you come aware of the free roaming fluidlike form.

Three things all correspond with the three centers or areas on body, belly, chest, head. Clearly distinctive three areas seen on bugs.
Calmoid wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:59 am
2. Awareness is like neon light. You know that it is dependent originated, can't exist on its own, obvious once you switch it off (cut the flow of electricity), so you know it is not permanent, existing on its own. (Same when you are in deep sleep, awareness is switched off) . As well when you switch the neon light on it looks stable but it isn't. Just a rapid succession of arising and passing/ of on and off.
With samadhi you will see the rapid arising and passing of sense objects one after the other. You will know by conclusion that sense awareness arises and passes as well.
When you are unaware you are just aware of the thoughts you are thinking. The body bound awareness is what people think they have "become aware" as this awareness is much more full of light than the time you are thinking thoughts.
When you come aware then there is huge cloud of darkness and probably people only see or remember that when "coming aware".
--
Rapid arising and passing of sense objects prolly refer to 'pragmatic dhamma'..
--
Whereas when you are aware, you are aware of the body(torso below neck) whereas the awareness itself is in the head(above neck). So when you are aware you can cultivate heart by self referential thoughts, heart will have a shockwave stillness or opening what gives you ability to focus on the sense of self what is substance, it will force the center of the head area to open.. you can attain union with the self or the seer who is aware.. and it doesn't even end here since there is belly area too..
in short you can take "awareness of awareness"(aoa) as pragmatic dhammist then yes you have nothing to do with it, the "aoa" requires different approach and dedication.

The noting sensations is an aspect even in awareness practice, but it sure isn't 10 sensation per minute. The sensations are rather like fear, happiness etc and it can last days. Some sensations are just very temporary others not, focus on those what are permanent compared to the temporal <--this kind of approach.
Focus on things what makes sense and matter and brings you forward, why focus on temporal meaningless stuff? haha, is it reverse psychology here.. people prolly aren't against "aoa" so much when it would feel useful, as it relays on boredom, cultivating being disinterested, nothing to do, intelligence deprivation etc.
Thanks for your comments but unfortunately I can't really follow what you are talking about and more importantly where it leads.

Calmoid
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Calmoid »

mikenz66 wrote:
I do note that Ajahn Sumedo says that "awareness is the door to the deathless", not the "awareness is the deathless".

It's important to consider whether this interpretation by the Thai Ajahns (and some others) of awareness as the unconditioned, outside of the khandhas, a misinterpretation, a problem of language, or completely correct? I don't know, and I prefer to keep an open mind about it while I investigate, rather than latching onto a particular interpretation.

:heart:
Mike
It is a misinterpretation!

It is wise that you kept an open mind!

Someone who misinterpreted such a statement actually directly once asked an Ajahn himself whether he understood him correctly or not and he responded: "So you really think I have wrong view to mean something (wrong) like that?" The person who asked felt embarrassed having assumed that.

It serves also no point to explain the right meaning, these statements are not meant for people trying to get on the path or are already on it.

Better to be satisfied with the info "awareness is the door to the deathless". Again you won't be able to understand this statement as a non sekha nor completely as a non asekha.

Calmoid
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Calmoid »

ToVincent wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:12 am

I suppose the "awareness of awareness" would be about being aware (with the ceto [citta] ) that our mano [attention] turns towards (is aware of) this synergistic process [what do you mean with that?] in the first place.

And the best way that our "awareness of awareness" can be settled [settled? Why do you need to settle it? What do you mean with settle?] , is to turn the mano towards the namarupa nidana [links] and its khandhas that "sankharize" collectively to form a dhamma - and how all this flows synergistically towards the internal [flows towards the internal? This all happens already internally... What do you mean with "the internal"?] .
I inserted into the quote above a few synonyms and questions in [ ] in order to understand your analysis and interpretation. Your interpretation somehow seems to me to go in the direction of what the ajahns mean with the training to be aware of "the observer" "the knower" "the quality which knows" or attention (the mind).
To understand more I would appreciate if you could kindly answer my questions in [.] above.

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mikenz66
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by mikenz66 »

Calmoid wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:56 am
It is a misinterpretation!

It is wise that you kept an open mind!
:woohoo:

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Crazy cloud »

"ENTERING THE DEATHLESS"
- Venerable Ajahn Sumedho

Namo tassa Bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa...
Aparuta tesam amatassa dvara
Ye sotavantu pamuñcantu saddham

The first line of the Pali that I chant at the beginning of my talk -- after the "Namo tassa...." -- means "the gates to the deathless are open." This has been my theme since I came to Amaravati "the deathless realm" thirteen years ago.

In the next line, the sotavanta is the one who listens or sees, pays attention, is awake.

So I use these lines to remind us that the gates, the doors, the entrance to the deathless, are open for those who listen, who pay attention. This kind of sustained awareness, this listening, is an expansive state of mind, isn't it? It is the conscious experience in the present which embraces the moment rather than discriminates -- as we do when we concentrate on one thing and shut out all the rest.

The meaning of pamuñcatu saddhaµ is "to trust, or "to relax into," this present moment "with faith." It's a simple ability, it's not a complicated, difficult thing to do. It's not like you have to spend years trying to be mindful and trying to "get it", it's not like that, it's a natural state that is relaxed and attentive, open, receptive, in the present. So then when we trust in that, then we begin to recognise the way it is, for example, in the body, the feelings, the mental states, the dhamma. These comprise the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and they are what's present here and now.

So how do you experience your body? If you conceive it in scientific terms, that's one way of trying to analyse the body. But when we just open and observe the way the body is in the present, that's an intuitive ability where the mind is embracing, or with, the way the body is. It's an intuitive awareness rather than a rational analysis.

And so we use the four postures and the breath -- the breath is like "this", sitting, standing, walking, lying down is like "this." It's not criticising or saying how it should be, but whatever way it is -- whether you're walking straight or crooked, sitting erect or hunched over, or whether you're feeling pleasure or pain or whatever -- we're just noticing, beginning to trust in our ability to observe the way it is, like "this."

Then, in that moment, the body is seen for what it is. Our relationship to it has changed, from seeing it as we might when we look at it in a mirror with vanity, or seeing the body in scientific terms, because this intuitive ability of the mind gives us this ability to let the body be a conscious experience in the present.

Source : "Entering Deathless" ~ passages extracted from a talk given by Ajahn Sumedho in Amaravati on 26 August 1977
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

Calmoid
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Calmoid »

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:49 am
Calmoid wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:56 am
It is a misinterpretation!

It is wise that you kept an open mind!
:woohoo:
Guess needed to add a few more comments.

Sentences like "awareness is the door to the deathless" are meant to be pointers to the final destiny as well to emphasis that which is essential to be investigated and trained to reach that destiny.

Concerning that infamous misinterpretation.
The people who spread those misinterpretations are those who never troubled themselves to actually check with an original source what they mean with what they said. Armchair critics. The read a book or listen to a talk with their ignorance. Unfortunately then they spread their ignorant interpretations with a lot of temperament. These deluded minds try to think themselves into the shoes of often liberated minds. Most of those armchair critics I met (lay as monastics) have been "smart" but hot, lost, unfulfilled, restless, with no teacher (self-made experts) and a lot of wrong views and opinions but assume they can think themselves into knowing and commenting about the experience of a liberated mind. Like the blind man touching the elephant and arguing with people who can actually see.

Awareness of awareness
Being aware of your attention. It is of course not literally meant since it is impossible. It's a figure of speech. But you can be aware of attention indirectly through training to see its objects and training to see the "switch" , means the experience between one mind+object passes and a new mind+object arises. We are not training objects of attention but attention or the mind (the quality which knows) itself. Its not the objects which attach to anything but the mind. It is a stressful habit/ tendency based on wrong understanding. We just train the mind to eventually see clearly. The way to do so is through training samma sati + yoniso manasikara (awareness of awareness so that it will become eventually wise skillful attention/awareness, the attention which leads to samma samadhi and liberation).

auto
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto »

Calmoid wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:28 am
Thanks for your comments but unfortunately I can't really follow what you are talking about and more importantly where it leads.
I say that the awareness can be aware of itself whereas you said it can't. I guess it depends on what you think.

If you open your eyes you also need open the mind and acknowledge that the eyes are open. After that 'seeing' can happen regardless if your eyes are shut or open, the activity of seeing is mental also including the objects what you see are mental.

Then you can solely focus on the mentality or the mental aspect of anything which corresponds with the body and giving out sensations what you can feel. That includes inducing the sense of self and acquired ability to focus upon oneself.
Self referential thought can send small electrical impulse towards heart at times, depending on the type of thought it also can affect lower back, kidneys to release elements etc. In short you can start cultivate body by using mind..

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mikenz66
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by mikenz66 »

Calmoid wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:13 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:49 am
Calmoid wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:56 am
It is a misinterpretation!

It is wise that you kept an open mind!
:woohoo:
Guess needed to add a few more comments.

Sentences like "awareness is the door to the deathless" are meant to be pointers to the final destiny as well to emphasis that which is essential to be investigated and trained to reach that destiny.

Concerning that infamous misinterpretation.
The people who spread those misinterpretations are those who never troubled themselves to actually check with an original source what they mean with what they said. Armchair critics. The read a book or listen to a talk with their ignorance. Unfortunately then they spread their ignorant interpretations with a lot of temperament. These deluded minds try to think themselves into the shoes of often liberated minds. Most of those armchair critics I met (lay as monastics) have been "smart" but hot, lost, unfulfilled, restless, with no teacher (self-made experts) and a lot of wrong views and opinions but assume they can think themselves into knowing and commenting about the experience of a liberated mind. Like the blind man touching the elephant and arguing with people who can actually see.
Thanks, but I do find Ajahn Sumedho, in particular, difficult to follow at times. Ajahn Amaro (and Thanissaro Bhikkhu) comment explicitly in their talks that they only seriously studied suttas after they came back to the West, so perhaps it's not surprising that their explanations of what they learned from their teachers is sometime hard to match with the suttas. Ajahn Maha Bua also comments in one of his meditation books that his terminology is non-standard, and based on experience. That, of course, does not make it wrong, but it means that one must be careful in interpreting what they write/speak. As you say, they are trying to point at something quite hard to discern.
Calmoid wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:13 am
Awareness of awareness
Being aware of your attention. It is of course not literally meant since it is impossible. It's a figure of speech. But you can be aware of attention indirectly through training to see its objects and training to see the "switch" , means the experience between one mind+object passes and a new mind+object arises. We are not training objects of attention but attention or the mind (the quality which knows) itself. Its not the objects which attach to anything but the mind. It is a stressful habit/ tendency based on wrong understanding. We just train the mind to eventually see clearly. The way to do so is through training samma sati + yoniso manasikara (awareness of awareness so that it will become eventually wise skillful attention/awareness, the attention which leads to samma samadhi and liberation).
Thanks for that. One of the reasons for my original post was to look for hints of how to discern that the "background awareness" is not constant (the inconstancy of the attention on the objects is much easier to discern).

:heart:
Mike

Calmoid
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Calmoid »

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:57 pm
Thanks, but I do find Ajahn Sumedho, in particular, difficult to follow at times. Ajahn Amaro (and Thanissaro Bhikkhu) comment explicitly in their talks that they only seriously studied suttas after they came back to the West, so perhaps it's not surprising that their explanations of what they learned from their teachers is sometime hard to match with the suttas. Ajahn Maha Bua also comments in one of his meditation books that his terminology is non-standard, and based on experience. That, of course, does not make it wrong, but it means that one must be careful in interpreting what they write/speak. As you say, they are trying to point at something quite hard to discern.

Thanks for that. One of the reasons for my original post was to look for hints of how to discern that the "background awareness" is not constant (the inconstancy of the attention on the objects is much easier to discern).

:heart:
Mike
Normal, as long as one doesn't know what they are talking about it is hard to follow. Once one knows (got the skills and made the necessary experiences) it is easy to follow.
I for example can't follow quite a few people here because I don't know what they are talking about.


Your wrong believe right now is that you you think "awareness /experience is constant" which is of course nonsense. Even you know during deep sleep you experience nothing means there is a break, a gap, a stop in experience . So if awareness would be constant why don't you know anything during deep sleep?

The problem you got yourself into now is a thinking problem. You separated synthetically awareness from its inseparable objects. You try to see something (only "awareness" as a separate thing without an object) which doesn't exist. If that would exist how would one be able to describe it or perceive (always perceive something (object)) it? If you would be able to perceive awareness, awareness would have become an object (something you perceived) and so it is not anymore awareness what you perceived but an object. Got it? It is a fallacy.

More correct you should ask yourself or try to get hints, how to discern that experience is not constant?

Either you need to have a strong wisdom faculty or you need the support of quick mindfulness and good samadhi so that your mind comes to the conclusion awareness or experience is not constant.

If you exit certain formless (no body no world) samadhi states and awareness becomes again aware of the body and the 5 sense doors, that switch of one experience/ awareness to the other and so the end of one and the beginning of another is super obvious (if you review it in retrospect!).
Also if you become aware of the moment when the mind exits deep sleep (also good mindfulness and samadhi required), again you see awarness is not constant. Reflect also that awareness can't exist on its own. There need to be conditions there for it to arise. It is also a conditioned dhamma. Also reflect that awareness cannot be you or yours, maybe that's easier for you how to tackle it, get rid of wrong view (the mind/awareness/"the experiencer" is me or mine) and eventually attachment. Or see each moment of awareness goes towards destruction, dissappears, vanishes, is dukkha.

Also you can reflect, if awareness would be static, unmoving, always the same, you wouldn't be able to experience different things. It is a flow (one after the other) of many moments of awareness+object, like neon light which switches on off 60times a second but you perceive it as static. You need a high-speed camera to see reality, the on and off, you need a calm, sharp and clear mind to see the arising and especially the PASSING of moments of experience. Train, it is doable !

Hope you can follow :tongue: ;)

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mikenz66
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by mikenz66 »

Calmoid wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:47 am
...
Yes, thanks. Those could prove useful hints to break down the perception of constancy.

:heart:
Mike

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Crazy cloud »

Am I conscious? Yes, I am!
I don't have to think about this before answering, off course.

That immediate knowing without thinking about am I conscious or not is deathless/anatta. And that knowing is to be investigated here and now - what is it that knows?
The body is in consciousness, not the other way around.
One is mindful all the time, but the problem is that it is just not right mindfulness.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

ToVincent
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by ToVincent »

auto wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:17 pm
...

Let's say that I try to stick to the meanings kṛ takes in the literature of the time of Buddha, and apply that to the possibilities the suttas/sutras can provide.

If the meanings of √ कृ kṛ are the following:
- to direct the thoughts , mind (mano in our case) - (RV.)
- Desid.: to wish to make or do , intend to do , design , intend , begin , strive after - (AV. - ŚBr. - KātyŚr.)
- to procure for one's self , appropriate , assume (ŚBr. - BṛĀrUp.)
- to do , make , perform , accomplish , cause , effect , prepare , undertake - (RV.)
- to make , render (AitBr - RV. ŚBr.)
- to proceed , act , put in practice - (VS. - ŚBr. - AitBr.)
- to do repeatedly - (RV. AV. TS.)
Then manasi-kṛ is some of the above, done with the mano.
And I try to limit myself to those meanings.

It would be doubtful for instance, that the Buddha as a kṣatriya, had not been acquainted with the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa (ŚBr.) of the kanva śākhā; or any of these texts. Wouldn' it ?

So, another instance of manasikāra would be - in a context other than samudayo - a desiderative kṛ with the mano, that leads to manosañcetana (意思 - Skt. mānaḥ-saṃcetanā). This is another possibility seen in Suttas\Sutras (e. g. SN 12.64 — SA374).

So when for instance, I hear yoniso manasikāra, being translated as "wise attention" - it might sound very profound and high-flown - but it is missing the more appropriate meaning of "turning the mano towards the origin".
In other words, if people don't stick to the historical lexicography, they often indulge in personal interpretations, that too often become "spiritually" elevated nonsenses; or even rabid speculations of abstruse nature - and misunderstanding and endless argumentation ensue.

________

I have seen no reference in the suttas/sutras that explicitly state that the mano is exclusively human.

///////////////////////
Calmoid wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:32 am
...

::::::::::::::
[Citta]
::::::::::::::

The closest definition of cit (√ ci) around the time of Buddha would be:
- to form an idea in the mind (citta) , be conscious of , understand , comprehend , think , reflect upon TS. ŚBr. ChUp. MBh.
The cit is what "seeks" and "sees" (comprehend) in the Vedic literature.
अचित् acit [ a-cí t ] without understanding RV.
अचित्त acitta [ a-cí tta ] inconceivable RV. (unnoticed).


It is also what piles up (heaps/stacks up (like the "sankharized" khandhas)).

Might we say that the citta is polluted by the mano? I suppose we might somewhat say that - if manasi-kāra means (as seen above), "intending, or appropriating, or more generally undertaking with the mano".


::::::::::::::
Ceto
::::::::::::::

In Chinese, ceto: 我心 => 心: citta + 我=wǒ: self ["I"]
Ceto means the citta of the "I". Namely the citta "polluted" by the "I" view - (definitely with the "help" of the mano - Yet, it is also turning the mano towards the origin (yoniso,) that helps one to be liberated from the ceto).

This is why cetovimutti should be translated "liberation FROM the ceto"; and not "liberation OF the ceto".

See:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34407&p=514221&hil ... ta#p514221


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
[Mano - attention]
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mano (मनस् manas) is the intellect, with some kind of a will (RV.). In RV. it is sometimes joined with hṛd or hṛdaya , the heart. (This is why I have a hard time with Sujato's translation of citta as "the heart").

If "turning the mano towards" (manasikāra) implies some kind of "attention" in some cases - in any case, the primary meaning of manasikāra is: "an intellect (willing or not,) to turn towards, to act, to appropriate something, or to intend".

That's what the historical lexicography tells us about. And it goes quite well with the suttas/sutras. Might it be when we talk about samudayo (as developed in my previous post), or manosañcetana, etc. (Note that cetana has to do with the ceto; and not with the liberated citta (back to its original pristine state).

______

[what do you mean with that?] (synergistic process)
"Sankharization" of the khandhas in namarupa nidana (that delivers a form, a sound,..., a dhamma (purely nama like - or a total phenomena [nama+rupa like]) - https://justpaste.it/1n1ii) .

[Settle]
I meant settle as finalized through the proper medium of the internal, (ultimately).
Understanding how things come to be through arrow 1 is good - Understanding how things come to be through arrow 2 is better. https://justpaste.it/1n1ii

[links]
What does yoniso means to you?
What is the origin one should turn his/her mano towards to?

[What do you mean with "the internal"?]
Ajjhatikkani ayatanani https://justpaste.it/1n1ii
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
What kind of magic do you use?

SteRo
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by SteRo »

Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:00 am
Am I conscious? Yes, I am!
I don't have to think about this before answering, off course.
Of course because the moment the question arises there is consciousness and delusive self makes it apppear as if it's been permanently there.
Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:00 am
That immediate knowing without thinking about am I conscious or not is deathless/anatta.
No, it's a delusion cause by conceit 'I am'

Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:00 am
And that knowing is to be investigated here and now - what is it that knows?
Nothing can be found.
Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:00 am
The body is in consciousness, not the other way around.
both is equally untenable.
Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:00 am
One is mindful all the time, but the problem is that it is just not right mindfulness.
Yes because the frame of reference set by sati is the self.

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