Awareness of awareness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
auto
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:37 pm
auto wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:36 pm ... Just take things on their face value, this background awareness is stable, many people tell it, it is common sense.
Maybe to rely on common sense in the context of Dhamma is not the best approach.
--
auto wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:36 pm .. Imo you need intentionally cultivate this awareness to gain attention to it,
If intention is involved self is involved and you will be nurturing self-view and trapped in the formless.
Background awareness is identified, it is there and is something and can be acknowledged, by knowing that you are aware; awareness of awareness.
When you deny it you should also question the sensation of pain if it really is pain or not.

When you are aware then focusing on 'being aware' is intent on tangible sensation of awareness.
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by SteRo »

Let's agree that we're talking about completely different things. never mind.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
PeterC86
Posts: 1412
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by PeterC86 »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:39 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 pm The formless is beyond our perception.
not attending to the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, not attending to the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness ... not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness ... not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1
Writing about this doesn't make sense for the reader who has not experienced it, but I want to make clear that the formless Jhana's are not the formless itself.

The formless Jhana's don't point towards the formless as such, but points towards how our mind clings to this something we call formless. That is why a liberated one is "not attending," as he has realized that the formless cannot be grasped, because it lies beyond our perception; it is non-perceived.
Last edited by PeterC86 on Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6236
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:29 am I’ll jump right in and say that this background awareness is the deathless element, simply because “dropping it” would entail an impossible contradiction - that; or unconsciousness (which I find incompatible with the “reality” of Nibbāna).

Have you succeeded in dropping it?
I lost that awareness when I went in to unconsciousness state which means awareness itself can be transcended without attaining nibbana. Awareness is because of blood flow to brain and certain regions of brain produce awareness and it is not self. If it’s self, then y can’t u be aware when injected with lots of anestisia? Or when brain is cut into million pieces? Debate me why awareness can be deathless when people lose awareness during operation or faint ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto »

PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 pm I'm having a hard time following your logic, I dont know what you mean here.
i mean, take awareness what it is, you can immediately understand what is talked about when people are talking about awareness of awareness, more so you can try it out by yourself to be aware like that.

So if you tell that the 'awareness of awareness' is what you mean by the formless then we can know what you mean and can remain on the same page when talking about things.
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 pm The formless is beyond our perception. I cannot make sense of what you are writing.
You haven't explained what grasping is, so i go by own understanding, what i explained in my reply. And if you are even remotely a practioneer then the description should ring some bell and know what I talking about.

you said you have been aware, so I talk about that same awareness. If you don't acknowledge it you need someone to tell it to be aware or some reminder, but if you train you can remember to acknowledge that state when it arises.
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 pm For the future, can you formulate your sentences more clearer? They are so vague that I have trouble understanding what you mean.
if you don't understand, then just tell your version of what awareness of awareness is without using your word formless. Talk about awareness without using unconventional words - what doesn't even have same meaning what formless and form is in modern budhism. No wonder why you not understand if you actually don't go by the "awareness of awareness", for you it is actually something else, not sure why you made that connection earlier on this thread.
PeterC86
Posts: 1412
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by PeterC86 »

auto wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:33 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 pm I'm having a hard time following your logic, I dont know what you mean here.
i mean, take awareness what it is, you can immediately understand what is talked about when people are talking about awareness of awareness, more so you can try it out by yourself to be aware like that.

So if you tell that the 'awareness of awareness' is what you mean by the formless then we can know what you mean and can remain on the same page when talking about things.
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 pm The formless is beyond our perception. I cannot make sense of what you are writing.
You haven't explained what grasping is, so i go by own understanding, what i explained in my reply. And if you are even remotely a practioneer then the description should ring some bell and know what I talking about.

you said you have been aware, so I talk about that same awareness. If you don't acknowledge it you need someone to tell it to be aware or some reminder, but if you train you can remember to acknowledge that state when it arises.
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 pm For the future, can you formulate your sentences more clearer? They are so vague that I have trouble understanding what you mean.
if you don't understand, then just tell your version of what awareness of awareness is without using your word formless. Talk about awareness without using unconventional words - what doesn't even have same meaning what formless and form is in modern budhism. No wonder why you not understand if you actually don't go by the "awareness of awareness", for you it is actually something else, not sure why you made that connection earlier on this thread.
In Theravada the word formless is used because one doesn't know what it is; it has no form because it lies beyond our six sense base perception. If one calls it "awareness of awareness," this probably means that one is under the belief that because we have our six sense based awareness, and because our six sense based awareness must come from somewhere, that this must also be aware. Here it becomes very tricky, because one can imagine it to be so, and therefore it becomes real for the one.

I don't know if it is an awareness of awareness, because I cannot grasp the formless, as it lies beyond my six sense-based perception, which means that I can experience its edges so to speak, but I can never enter it to explore what it is. Also my perception is only six sense based, so I cannot separate the formless from my experience, even if I cannot distinguish it myself.

If you don't understand what I mean, or you want to know more about it, I can only refer to the book I have written. I am not going to discuss this any further, as there is really nothing to discuss. The only thing people are willing to discuss are their beliefs.
auto
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto »

PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:25 pm In Theravada the word formless is used because one doesn't know what it is; it has no form because it lies beyond our six sense base perception. If one calls it "awareness of awareness," this probably means that one is under the belief that because we have our six sense based awareness, and because our six sense based awareness must come from somewhere, that this must also be aware. Here it becomes very tricky, because one can imagine it to be so, and therefore it becomes real for the one.

I don't know if it is an awareness of awareness, because I cannot grasp the formless, as it lies beyond my six sense-based perception, which means that I can experience its edges so to speak, but I can never enter it to explore what it is. Also my perception is only six sense based, so I cannot separate the formless from my experience, even if I cannot distinguish it myself.
kāmarāga
rūparāga
arūparāga

the desire(rāga) for form and formless realms, doesn't mean your desire/attachment for form and formless it is refer to spontaneous birth(sati) on them. (maybe)

sati is often translated as mindfulness, ability to remember. I have found on other Sutta sati is translated as 'exist'..also other words like rāga and how it could relate to upadanakhandas..
https://suttacentral.net/an6.67/en/sujato wrote:Having fulfilled ethics, it’s possible give up desire to be reborn in the realm of luminous form or in the formless realm.”‘Sīlāni paripūretvā kāmarāgaṃ vā rūparāgaṃ vā arūparāgaṃ vā pajahissatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjatī”ti.
..
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:25 pm If you don't understand what I mean, or you want to know more about it, I can only refer to the book I have written. I am not going to discuss this any further, as there is really nothing to discuss. The only thing people are willing to discuss are their beliefs.
I suggest you to delete your book, and start over. If you have paperback then use it as a firestarter on a woodstove or use it as a toilet paper.
User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Crazy cloud »

PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:25 pm I don't know if it is an awareness of awareness, because I cannot grasp the formless, as it lies beyond my six sense-based perception, which means that I can experience its edges so to speak, but I can never enter it to explore what it is. Also my perception is only six sense based, so I cannot separate the formless from my experience, even if I cannot distinguish it myself.
I'm a little confused by your definitions here. I understand it as we have a consciousness and 6 different consciousnesses that arise and cease out of it. And that awareness is the witness to both consciousness and the six different consciousnesses. Awareness is not consciousness and is constant whether one is conscious or not about it.

I am conscious that my mind is still and silent now, but beyond that consciousness, there is an awareness/knowing this to be so.
That means to me that beyond the silence of mind there is something even more subtle than my stillness.
:coffee:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
PeterC86
Posts: 1412
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by PeterC86 »

Crazy cloud wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:57 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:25 pm I don't know if it is an awareness of awareness, because I cannot grasp the formless, as it lies beyond my six sense-based perception, which means that I can experience its edges so to speak, but I can never enter it to explore what it is. Also my perception is only six sense based, so I cannot separate the formless from my experience, even if I cannot distinguish it myself.
I'm a little confused by your definitions here. I understand it as we have a consciousness and 6 different consciousnesses that arise and cease out of it. And that awareness is the witness to both consciousness and the six different consciousnesses. Awareness is not consciousness and is constant whether one is conscious or not about it.
No I am definitely not saying that. I am saying that we only have our six sense based consciousness through which we can perceive and the formless lies outside of this.
I am conscious that my mind is still and silent now, but beyond that consciousness, there is an awareness/knowing this to be so.
That means to me that beyond the silence of mind there is something even more subtle than my stillness.
:coffee:
The mind is conscious of the mind being still?
User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Crazy cloud »

PeterC86 wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:18 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:57 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:25 pm I don't know if it is an awareness of awareness, because I cannot grasp the formless, as it lies beyond my six sense-based perception, which means that I can experience its edges so to speak, but I can never enter it to explore what it is. Also my perception is only six sense based, so I cannot separate the formless from my experience, even if I cannot distinguish it myself.
I'm a little confused by your definitions here. I understand it as we have a consciousness and 6 different consciousnesses that arise and cease out of it. And that awareness is the witness to both consciousness and the six different consciousnesses. Awareness is not consciousness and is constant whether one is conscious or not about it.
No I am definitely not saying that. I am saying that we only have our six sense based consciousness through which we can perceive and the formless lies outside of this.
I am conscious that my mind is still and silent now, but beyond that consciousness, there is an awareness/knowing this to be so.
That means to me that beyond the silence of mind there is something even more subtle than my stillness.
:coffee:
The mind is conscious of the mind being still?,
Mind consciousness is conscious of no movement in the mind, and behind there is knowing or awareness. I can't say that awareness lies outside/inside of this phenomena, and actually can't say anything about it, other than the experience that there is witnessing to my stillness.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
PeterC86
Posts: 1412
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by PeterC86 »

Crazy cloud wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:40 pm ...and behind there is knowing or awareness.
That is what we call our memory.
I can't say that awareness lies outside/inside of this phenomena, and actually can't say anything about it, other than the experience that there is witnessing to my stillness.
That's what I would call the mind being conscious of the mind being still, but it has nothing to do with the formless I spoke of.
User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Crazy cloud »

PeterC86 wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:51 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:40 pm ...and behind there is knowing or awareness.
That is what we call our memory.
I can't say that awareness lies outside/inside of this phenomena, and actually can't say anything about it, other than the experience that there is witnessing to my stillness.
That's what I would call the mind being conscious of the mind being still, but it has nothing to do with the formless I spoke of.
Awareness based on memory will be my awareness, but awareness without memory is being now, and that's what I try to explain.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Crazy cloud »

Was listening to this talk today, and found it useful🙏
https://www.amaravati.org/audio/day-3a- ... awareness/
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
auto
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by auto »

Sense organ consciousness(vinnana) is what becomes established(patiṭṭhitaṃ) when there is supporting(ārammaṇa) condition(underlying feelings) for bhava(continued existence).
https://suttacentral.net/an3.76/en/sujato wrote: The consciousness of sentient beings—hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving—is established in a lower realm. That’s how there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future.
Avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ hīnāya dhātuyā viññāṇaṃ patiṭṭhitaṃ evaṃ āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti. ()
.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.40/en/sujato wrote:“Mendicants, what you intend or plan, and what you have underlying tendencies for become a support for the continuation of consciousness.“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti ārammaṇametaṃ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

When this support exists, consciousness becomes established.
Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti.
When consciousness is established and grows, there is an inclination.
Tasmiṃ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nati hoti.
When there is an inclination, there is coming and going.
Natiyā sati āgatigati hoti.
When there is coming and going, there is passing away and reappearing.
Āgatigatiyā sati cutūpapāto hoti.
.
Cakkhu rūpañca viññāṇaṃ,
samphasso vedanāya ca;
Saññā sañcetanā taṇhā,
dhātu khandhena te dasāti.
Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvana. Sounds like it, but as a practice method of developing sati(existence)[being aware of 'I am seeing', 'I am sitting' etc and other 3 further aspects) to experience the results of the kamma done in the past meanwhile without doing new kamma, little by little.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.74/en/sujato wrote: It’s when, Abhaya, a mendicant is ethical, restrained in the code of conduct, with good behavior and supporters. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, they keep the rules they’ve undertaken.
Idha, abhaya, bhikkhu sīlavā hoti … pe … samādāya sikkhati sikkhāpadesu.
They don’t perform any new deeds, and old deeds are eliminated by experiencing their results little by little.
So navañca kammaṃ na karoti, purāṇañca kammaṃ phussa phussa byantīkaroti.
This wearing away is visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.Sandiṭṭhikā nijjarā akālikā ehipassikā opaneyyikā paccattaṃ veditabbā viññūhīti.
*dhatu
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/d/dhātu wrote:….natural condition,property,disposition; factor,item,principle,form.In this meaning in var.combns & applications,esp.closely related to khandha.Thus mentioned with khandha & āyatana (sensory element & element of sense-perception) as bodily or physical element,factor (see khandha B 1 d & cp.Nd2 under dhātu) Th.2,472.As such (physical substratum) it constitutes one of the lokā or forms of being (khandha° dhātu° āyatana° Nd2 550).Freq.also in combn kāma-dhātu,rūpa° arūpa° “the elements or properties of k.etc.” as preceding & conditioning bhava in the respective category
(Nd2 s.v.).See under d.-- As “set of conditions or state of being (-°)
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19944
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks for the various discussions here. Very interesting.
pegembara wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 am "Awareness" is not a thing but an activity that grabs onto the 6 sense objects.
I agree. I didn't mean to imply that the classification schemes, such as aggregates and sense bases, refer to "things". Sorry if it looked like that. Quite the opposite: I'm working on ways of seeing that this "background awareness" is just another activity...
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:28 am You may find something useful in ven. Nanananda's explorations of the term manasikara.
I searched through his talks. I have often found his meditation instructions and analyses very useful, but I was unable to locate anything specifically about the "feeling of constant background awareness". Was there something in particular that you had in mind.

However, it is useful to be reminded that the nama-rupa-viññāṇa analysis (name&form and consciousness) is not identical to the aggregates analysis:
And what are name and form?
Katamañca, bhikkhave, nāmarūpaṃ?
Feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention.
Vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro—
This is called name.
idaṃ vuccati nāmaṃ.
...
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato#11.1
In contrast the khandhas are:
rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa.

This talk from Ajahn Sumedho is interesting:
Crazy cloud wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:22 pm Was listening to this talk today, and found it useful🙏
https://www.amaravati.org/audio/day-3a- ... awareness/
It may well be a useful approach in a meditative context, but his use of terminology seems very non-standard (which is not unusual for Thai Forest monks, of course), as he appears to be postulating a "consciousness" that is not impermanent. See Ajahn Brahm's comment further down...

Joseph Goldstein's talk "Reflections on non-self"
https://dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/54689/
does address some of the issue of "creating the observer", from about 39 minutes, and discusses approaches from various traditions.

Some of the other talks and Q&A sessions on his page are also useful: https://dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/

Here's a quote from the "Mind Contemplation" section of Ajahn Brahm's book "Happiness Through Meditation", page 116 (also printed as "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond"). He, of course, sees Jhana as an essential preparation.
Brahm wrote: ... Before you begin to investigate the nature of the citta you have to insure that this mind consciousness is purified from all other types of consciousness, i.e., that the five external sense-consciousnesses have been abandoned. Again, this can be done only after emerging from a jhana. Then superpower mindfulness takes the jhana experience just past, a sustained experience of the citta set apart from the five senses, as its object of investigation. Only in this way will the truth be seen that the citta is anatta, tha mind consciousness is subject to arising and passing, that it is neither "me" nor "mine" nor a self, that it is neither God nor cosmic consciousness---that it is just citta, a flame burning because of fuel.
One of the things I have noticed is that the "background awareness" is where the focus goes as I become more concentrated. It's what "brightens". I've definitely not had the sort of jhana experience that Ajahn Brahm describes, but I can see that such blissful, radiant, experience could easily lead to the idea of a "cosmic consciousness" or "true self". This, to me, is the key reason for asking questions about the nature of such experience.

As Thanissaro Bhikkhu observes:
Thanissaro wrote: Although at present we rarely think in the same terms as the Sāṅkhya philosophers, there has long been—and still is—a common tendency to create a “Buddhist” metaphysics in which the experience of emptiness, the Unconditioned, the Dharma-body, Buddha-nature, rigpa, etc., is said to function as the ground of being from which the “All”—the entirety of our sensory & mental experience—is said to spring and to which we return when we meditate. Some people think that these theories are the inventions of scholars without any direct meditative experience, but actually they have most often originated among meditators, who label (or in the words of the discourse, “perceive”) a particular meditative experience as the ultimate goal, identify with it in a subtle way (as when we are told that “we are the knowing”), and then suppose that level of experience to be the ground of being out of which all other experience comes.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN1.html
:heart:
Mike
Post Reply