What is 'the fetter that arises dependent on both' in this passage?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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manas
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What is 'the fetter that arises dependent on both' in this passage?

Post by manas »

I refer specifically to this passage from the Satipatthana Sutta:
“And further, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms, he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both.17 He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no further appearance in the future of a fetter that has been abandoned. [The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.]
(https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN10.html)
Could someone please clarify: is 'the fetter' being referred to here, equivalent to (one or another of) the ten fetters (saṃyojana)?

For example: suppose one sees a pleasing form. Is 'the fetter that arises' in that instance, sensual passion? In the case of a displeasing form, resistance?

:anjali:
“It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what’s called ‘mind,’ ‘intellect,’ or ‘consciousness’ by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another." - SN 12:61 (excerpt)

char101
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Re: What is 'the fetter that arises dependent on both' in this passage?

Post by char101 »

Quoting the commentary.
Yam tadubhayam paticcca uppajjati samyojanam = "The fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms)." He understands according to distinct function and characteristic the tenfold fetter that arises dependent on both eye and forms — the tenfold fetter of sense-desire, resentment, pride, speculative theory, doubt, belief in rites and ceremonies, the desire to go on existing, envy, avarice and ignorance.

"How does this tenfold fettering arise?" asks one.

The fetter of sensuality arises for him who by way of sensuous enjoyment takes delight in a pleasant sense-object become visible at the eye-door. For him who is annoyed or angry at the sight of an unpleasant object, the fetter of resentment arises, and the fetter of pride arises in him who thinks: No one but me is able to consider the object wisely. The fetter of speculative theory comes to be in him who takes material form to be permanent and everlasting. The fetter of doubt arises in him who thinks in this way: Is the material form a being or a being's? The fetter of the desire to go on existing arises in him who wishes thus: To be sure, in a favorable state of existence this material form will become easy of access. The fetter of rites and ceremonies arises in him who undertakes to perform rites and ceremonies thinking: In the future it will be possible to obtain such an object as this by taking up the observance of rites and ceremonies. The fetter of envy arises in him who contemplates grudgingly: Should no others get this material form, it would be good, indeed. The fetter of avarice arises in one who stints for another the material form belonging to one.

The fetter of ignorance arises (with all the previously mentioned fetters), with all sensuous passion and the like, by way of the relation of conascent nescience.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#sense

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DooDoot
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Re: What is 'the fetter that arises dependent on both' in this passage?

Post by DooDoot »

The eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire & passion (chandarāgo) arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there.

The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect. Whatever desire & passion (chandarāgo) arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.232/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.232/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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manas
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Re: What is 'the fetter that arises dependent on both' in this passage?

Post by manas »

char101 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:42 pm
...
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:43 pm
...
Thank you both very much :anjali:
“It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what’s called ‘mind,’ ‘intellect,’ or ‘consciousness’ by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another." - SN 12:61 (excerpt)

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